Alex Ferrari 0:00
Why is it that being a person feels so much more real than awareness itself, where the awareness or the observer or the soul is the real thing?

Rupert Spira 0:12
A waking state experience is is dominated by sense perception. For anything to be known, such as a world, it must be known by a subject that stands apart from it. Time and space is just our interface. What the world really is is is mind. It's the activity of consciousness. In religious language, it's it's God's mind.

Alex Ferrari 0:40
So, what separates the thought of peace in your life from peace itself?

Rupert Spira 0:47
It's just more difficult to explain now...

Alex Ferrari 0:59
I'd like to welcome to the show Rupert Spira. How you doing, Rupert?

Rupert Spira 1:02
Very well. Thank you for inviting me. Lovely to be with you.

Alex Ferrari 1:06
Oh, and thank you so much for being here, my friend. I have been an admirer of your work for a while now, and I've always wanted to have you on the show. And I just was-we never could connect, but we finally had a mutual friend connect us, and and here you are. So I really am looking forward to this conversation, Rupert.

Rupert Spira 1:22
Likewise, thank you for asking me.

Alex Ferrari 1:24
So, my first question is: Your apprenticeship under Michael Cardell, who is one of Britain's most influential studio potters, what did Clay teach you that words never could?

Rupert Spira 1:37
In some ways, I felt that my entire education took place with with Michael Cardew. It was so so many things on on so many different levels. Apart from anything, just the discipline of working in a studio with a small group of people. And ceramics is a process where once you start making something, it it it's a long process. It's a three month process from beginning to end, and every stage of the process needs to be attended to. So it's a it's a real commitment of your of your time, your energy, your focus. What did I really learn? Let me let me tell you a story that will give you a sense of my apprenticeship with Michael, and will go some way to answering your question. I had been there maybe for about six months. I was 20 years old. Michael was 80 years old. So I had the last couple of years of his life with him, and I'd been there for about six months. I was making bowls. I was beginning to be a little bit pleased with myself. I thought I was doing quite well. And Michael came into the workshop one day. It was a long. It was an old skitter landing. It was a long, narrow workshop. He came in at one end. I was working at the other end, and I had lots of bowls. I'd been working all morning on the shelves. He came up and he just stood in front of the bowls and kind of surveyed them for a long time, and I was expecting my first my first accolade from him. And I remember he just turned to me with this withering look on his face, and he said, "Rupert, you haven't begun to take that shape into yourself, and left. And that was that was the way the apprenticeship worked. There was no no explanation. There was no. I was just left completely, you know, my my pride completely wounded, and of course having to work out for myself what he meant by that, what he meant by taking a shape into yourself, making it your own, and that's just the way the the way the apprenticeship worked. Very little was explained. You just Michael was working there, his son Seth. There was one other apprentice, and we just I just learned by watching, copying, looking, very few explanations, and you just learn more and more what it means to take a shape into yourself, to really make it your own, and and not not copy something from the outside, and not to try and impose something of your own on your on your materials and your processes. So it was sorry.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
No, no, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Rupert Spira 4:29
Well, ceramics is it's one of those all the elements are are involved: earth, water, fire. So a pottery workshop is like a kind of conjunction of all the kind of elements and forces of nature, and you, as the as the maker, are kind of orchestrating this confluence of materials and processes, and. Sort of harnessing them, harnessing the materials and energies of of nature, and it's a very humbling process. It's very exposing of you if you try to impose yourself. It's a it's in a way it's a kind of spiritual practice. It was for me.

Alex Ferrari 5:19
You mentioned that as a bowl is a sacred transmission that comes through, and as an artist, I understand that because when I do my work as an artist, many times I feel like almost almost a channel of energy coming through to create the art that you're creating or the item that you're creating. But what do you mean by a sacred transmission? When a bowl is a sacred transmission, but for us it's an everyday object. But when you're creating it as a pottery, as a ceramic, it's a very different experience.

Rupert Spira 5:50
It's an everyday object, but but as with all objects, all objects are are the appearance of. I would suggest that the physical world, in general, is the appearance of of the reality of the world, which lies, as it were, behind it. It's not really a physical world that we live in. The physical world is just how our senses render reality, and that goes, of course, for every object. So, to come to your question now, a bowl is not not what it is in and of itself is not a physical object. It's just our our senses render it as a physical object. William Blake said it so perfectly. He said, "Every bird that cuts the airway, every bird that flies through the sky, every bird that cuts the airway is an immense world of light enclosed by our five senses. So he had this idea that the the senses kind of dumb down reality and present the reality. In Blake's case, the reality of the bird, the reality of the object, the reality of nature, present it to us in a way that is consistent with our perceiving faculties. But what it is in itself, William Blake said, an immense world of delight enclosed or captured or reduced by our five senses. So I would say a bowl was the same thing. It's the it's the appearance of all the energies that have gone into the make of it, and those energies are partly your own personal ideas and emotions, and and but it's also everything that you've inherited from your culture. It's so it a bowl is a it's a it's a confluence of ideas captured by our perceiving faculties, and in that sense, the the object is a is a transmission of the ideas that have gone into the make of it. So depending on where the depending on the ideas that that are behind, and this is the same for for your work, for any creativity, the the created object is is the is the representation, the manifestation of all the ideas, the emotions, the energies that have gone into it, and and they deliver this these energies, these idea to the viewer as as a bowl or a piece of music or a movie or an object, or so in that sense, it's a it's a the bowl is a representation of all the ideas. Some of them your own personal ideas, but also those that you've inherited from your from your culture and and and from your era, from your time, from your location.

Alex Ferrari 8:42
That's why looking at art from the past is such a portal into that artist's experience.

Rupert Spira 8:49
Absolutely, you're going into the mind. You're looking at a painting or listening to a piece of music. But what you're really doing is is looking into the mind of of the person who created it, and not just their personal mind. Of course, their personal mind is part of it, but their personal mind, as indeed as our personal minds, are also the repository of of the ideas that we've inherited from our culture. So each of our minds represents not only our personal ideas, but the ideas that we've been we've inherited from our parents and our culture. So every work of art is both you're looking into the mind of the maker, of the artist, of the composer, of the painter, of the poet, of the the ceramicist. But you're also looking into their culture

Alex Ferrari 9:40
At the time of of that time,

Rupert Spira 9:43
Exactly. It and and then some works of art, of course, are very are just expressions of the ideas of their time, but some works of art, and I would suggest that these were the really great works of art, transcend. The temporal local ideas, and and and the artist is is a channel not just for the temporal local ideas of of their culture, but of of universal truths, albeit expressed in in in in the time and place in which they were working, and that's why that's what I mean by a sacred transmission. A sacred transmission is a transmission of something that is impersonal. That's not just an individual person's truth, but but a belief that but something that is universally true.

Alex Ferrari 10:35
Like a perfect example coming from my world of filmmaking, there are films that are very dated, meaning they are a product of the time and the filmmaker effort. But then there are films that are timeless, that you can watch at any time, and it doesn't seem to be stuck in a specific time. I'll use Star Wars, using Star Wars for an example, or The Matrix for an example. In 100 years, both those films will be looked upon, yeah, and and will continue to go where many of their contemporaries will will fall to the wayside because they were a product of their time.

Rupert Spira 11:12
Yes, yeah, yeah. That that's very true. That that that's what I would call a a great work of art, a work of art that transcends its local Temporal framework, and they're also the works of art that that every time you you watch them in the case of a of a movie, every time you listen to them in the case of a case of a piece of music, every time you use the object in the case of they keep on delivering their their meaning fresh. They they they're always fresh. They're evergreen. They're always fresh. You never feel, oh, I'm watching the same film again. I I know this. You you've seen something new in it. You experience it new every time. That the work has that power because because the the understanding it is conveying is something alive and pre and and and present and relevant now.

Alex Ferrari 12:03
It's kind of like any time you watch a Stanley Kubrick film, you know, when you watch it at 20 is very different than when you watch it at 50.

Rupert Spira 12:10
Absolutely, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yes, yes. And of course, the same goes for writing as well-a piece of writing, a sacred text, a powerful poem that they they just they go on delivering their meaning.

Alex Ferrari 12:25
Right. I mean, you can the Christmas Carol, a perfect example of of work. Any Dickens, Shakespeare, Bacon.

Rupert Spira 12:34
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 12:34
They just carry on forever. They just carry on forever. They're they're they are absolute. The Christmas Carol is timeless and will be timeless forever, and will be continue to be retold until we until we stop our last breath. Essentially,

Rupert Spira 12:48
Yes, yeah, yes, exactly. So, so that that's what I mean by a by a sacred transmission, a sacred work work of art, and and it can be a it can be a it can be a magnificent symphony, but it can also just be a cup and saucer. It or almost you can universal truths can be expressed through through any medium. Filmmaking, of course, is one of the the great mediums of our of our time, our era.

Alex Ferrari 13:17
Right, exactly. We are. That's it's only about 125 years old at this point. Yeah, hasn't been around long the time, but it is a combination of all the arts, every one almost is is included in the making of those. It's it's it's beautiful. So you were you also started. So you were a potter, and you were you had your own studio for about 30 years, if I'm not mistaken,

Rupert Spira 13:42
That's right. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 13:44
Okay. So during that time, you were not you were you were moonlighting, because you were a potter by day and a very, very, very well known and popular and successful potter. But you were also studying deep thoughts and philosophies and spirituality, and I don't know if it was quiet or not, but you were doing it both at the same time, correct?

Rupert Spira 14:06
You're right. Sort of by day, I was working as a pottery in my studio, exhibiting around the world, and and I did this for 35 years or so. But but yes, I was moonlighting my my passion, well, the pottery was my my passion, but I had this twin passion. I was deeply interested in in really in in the in the recognition of of my true nature. But I was exploring it particularly through the the classical Advaita Vedanta tradition. So I was, I was, I learned to meditate when I was 16. I was doing the Mevlevi Sufi turning. I learnt Gurjiev's movements. I was reading Aspensky and Krishnamurti and Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi. So, so, but by night I was, I was studying and contemplating. Thinking and meditating and reading and and by day I was working in my in my studio. Yes,

Alex Ferrari 15:06
Let me ask you the Sufi dance, which is when people think of Sufis, they automatically the the most popular part of a Sufi, which is a mystic. It's a mystic sect in in Islam, correct? It's kind of a mystic.

Rupert Spira 15:18
That's right. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 15:20
So with that dance, is when they have the the hat and they're all these beautiful long, and they just are spinning and spinning. Can you explain to me the spiritual the spiritual idea behind that, or is it a meditation, or what is the reasoning for the dance, and what is it supposed to be transmitting or connecting you to when you're doing it,

Rupert Spira 15:41
It's a meditation and at the same time a prayer, and it's it's really a it's really a complete surrender to to God. It's a devotional practice of complete surrender of oneself to God, and it's a very powerful practice because when you're when you're doing the turning to begin with, if you if you were to start turning now in in your room, you you would feel that you were going round and round and round, and you do feel that to begin with. But after a while, you begin to feel very very. This is when you're doing the Mevlevi turning. You begin to feel completely still, and instead of you turning anti-clockwise, you feel that you're completely still, and that the room is turning clockwise around you. So you you come to this complete feeling of stillness, although you are actually turning anti-clockwise, and it's quite a demanding practice physically, but you come to this very, very still place right at the kind of heart of your experience. So, in in that sense, it's a very profound meditation, but it also has a deep devotional aspect to it. It's a complete, complete surrender of oneself to God.

Alex Ferrari 17:05
It seems like it's a technique then to basically quiet the mind or get rid of all of the stimulus of the world, which is what meditators have a problem with, especially when they start. Is all that stuff, but it kind of just it seems what you're explaining that it's like it's it just you're focused so hard on not falling, and then you're spinning.

Rupert Spira 17:26
It's it's one level that that's true, but but it would not do it justice to say that it was a technique to quieten the mind. Quietening the mind is the side effect.

Alex Ferrari 17:37
Correct. That makes sense.

Rupert Spira 17:38
It's the almost inevitable consequence of the practice, but it's not a a technique. It's true what you say, but but to to call it a technique to quieten the mind would would be to diminish it. I agree. I understand. You you would never call it a prayer, a technique. A technique. It's fair enough. It's too technical. Although although you're right in the sense that that it's very technical, you you have to do it right. It's demanding physically. If you do it, you you can't turn for half an hour without getting extremely dizzy and sick. So, and and it's also demanding, you know, to keep your hands. It it's very specific. So you're right. There is a technique to it, but but that that that is the least of it. But but you have to get that correct and out of the way, and then of course so so that you're you're not focusing on that, like any art form. You you have to master your your the A to Z of your craft, but then you have to forget it. You have to be so, so you have to be so familiar with your technique, your materials, your processes that that that they're no longer an obstruction. And so yes, there's a technical aspect to it, but but that that's the least of it.

Alex Ferrari 18:54
Right. It's essentially like as a writer when you're going to sit down to write a novel, you aren't thinking about the hero's journey, the entire time you're writing, it's already you already have that in you, so you just a flow essentially.

Rupert Spira 19:07
Exactly, exactly. Yes, but if you haven't mastered the age instead of your craft, you you spend all your time struggling with your technique, and and and you never enter into that into that flow. So you you have to do that. You can't bypass that, but but you have to transcend that. You have to master it and transcend it.

Alex Ferrari 19:27
Now, Rupert, I always I've always said that this reality is very intoxicating. It's once our our being is in this avatar, walking in this reality, what's around and it's designed this way is extremely enticing. From all the physical pleasures, all the stimuli, all the interactions, all of that stuff is extremely, and it feels so real that it is always a challenge to quiet that, to connect to the true self, to. Find to to connect to the awareness or the observer that is watching it because this is so enticing. Why is it that being a person feels so much more real than awareness itself, where the awareness or the observer or the soul is the real thing when this is not

Rupert Spira 20:21
Our sense perceptions are so are so powerful. Our waking state experience is is dominated by sense perception. Entire waking state experience takes place through sense perception: seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling. So, our entire experience of the world is is mediated through sense perception. Sense perception is like a VR headset that we're wearing, except that we've been wearing it for so long that we don't realize we're wearing it. So we believe and deeply feel that perception gives us an accurate representation of reality. It's like someone who's been wearing orange-tinted contact lenses for for 30 years and no longer realizes they're doing so, and they think the world is orange. No, no, no, the world isn't orange, but they've forgotten they're looking at it through an orange-tinted lens. Well, perception is the orange-tinted lens that tints reality and makes it appear as a as a physical world, and it's very persuasive because that that is the that that's the all our waking state experience is filtered through perception. So we tend to to believe the evidence of sense perception, whereas the awareness, as you say, which is what we are at the deepest level, never shows up in the content of experience. So, although it's what we what we are at the deepest level, it never registers as an experience. Just like when you're watching a movie, all you're really seeing is the screen, but the screen never shows up in the movie. So you, if you get lost in the movie, you

Alex Ferrari 22:10
Forget

Rupert Spira 22:11
That you're seeing the screen. The screen seems to become invisible. Of course, you're never experiencing anything other than the screen, but you don't realize that because you're lost in the content. Well, our experience is like the drama in the movie. As you say, it's so intoxicating. It's either so pleasurable, it's either so pleasant, or so unpleasant that one way or the other, it it absorbs our attention to the exclusion of of the screen. Excretion. The screen in this context, of course, is is the presence of awareness, which is not only that which knows our experience, but it's also the medium in which all experience takes place. But it's it's it's transparent, it's invisible, it's silent. And so, for one who only looks through sense perception, we we overlook it. We we ignore it.

Alex Ferrari 23:05
Can you explain to people? And this is I I ask it so flippantly, but can you explain to people the nature of the true reality?

Rupert Spira 23:15
The the nature of reality.

Alex Ferrari 23:17
Yes, of nature of the true reality, not just the true reality, not just this reality, but the nature of it, because so many people are intoxicated by this world. But yet, it seems in recent decades that there is a hunger to look beyond it. I brought up the Matrix earlier. The Matrix was one of those first zeitgeist moments that people said, "Wait a minute, we are we in a computer simulation, whether it's a computer simulation, but we are in a simulation. It's been talked about in the Vedas. It's been talked about by the Aborigines. Been talked about by the American Indian. Has been talked about. It's a concept that's old as time itself. So the ancients knew this. So can you explain it?

Rupert Spira 23:57
And you're right that there is a hunger nowadays, and I think it's because people look around at what is happening in the world, and you know, for all our scientific sophistication, and and if you look around at the extent of the the anxiety and the sorrow people feel on the inside, and and and the extent of the conflict on the outside, people look around, think we've got something wrong. You know, if if an alien was to visit our Earth and kind of sample our lives, how people spend their lives and relate to one another, that they would think these these people are crazy. They've got something wrong. So I think I think that is why there is this this hunger now. Now to your question, can I can I explain the reality? I'm not going to explain it. Ultimately, ultimately, you can't. You can't. It's very hard. It's. To explain, I know you understand this, but can I give you a? Can I try to respond to your question again experientially, so so your listeners don't don't feel that I'm just telling them how things are, but but helping them to discover for themselves, and and and that will also show them show everyone who who is listening how I've arrived at what I consider to be the ultimate reality, and and and what many of the great traditions for hundreds, 1000s of years have considered to be the ultimate reality. So start with your experience, with with what you're experiencing now-seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, feeling, imagining, thinking-that that's all we have. Let's let's just call it thinking and perceiving for sure. That that's what everybody is doing now. That's all we ever know: thinking and perceiving, and if you if you touch the stuff that thinking and perceiving are made of, all you find is knowing or consciousness. That another way of expressing this: all we have is experience. All that is ever known by anyone is experience, and the only substance present in experience is knowing, consciousness. So the only substance that anybody actually ever knows is knowing or consciousness. And of course, if you then ask, and what is it that is knowing this knowing? It's only knowing. It's only consciousness aware of itself. So, this knowing, this consciousness, is is the only substance present in experience. Just as you might say, the screen is the only substance present in a movie, it looks like people, objects, a landscape, but it's all a coloring of the screen. All experience is a coloring of consciousness, a coloring of knowing, and for that reason, I would suggest that knowing, pure consciousness, is the ultimate reality. It's it it's because it's that's our experience. Our experience is that the only substance we ever come in contact with is knowing or consciousness.

Alex Ferrari 27:30
There's a quote that Paramahansa Yogananda said, which I think is so beautiful, and I think it illustrates what you're trying to say so beautifully. That he says, when you're in a movie theater and looking at a screen, you get caught up in the drama and the violence and the and the the death and the love and the beauty and all that and that's what you're seeing on the screen and you get intoxicated by the screen. He goes, but that's not where you need to be focused. You need to turn around and look at where the light is coming from. That is where your focus should be. What do you think of that quote?

Rupert Spira 28:04
I think it's absolutely right. It draws attention to one aspect of consciousness, which is the illuminating element. It's it's it's the light, as you say. You turn around. You turn away from the movie. You look back. It's the light bulb that illuminates the movie. So it's it's a beautiful analogy, and it illuminates the the knowing aspect of consciousness. But like all analogies, it has its limits, and what's what's limited about it. And this is not-I just want to be absolutely sure you answer something. This is not the Paramahansa Yogananda, for whom I have the the highest regard. All all analogies are limited. So the the analogy of of the light bulb in the traditional cinema draws attention to the illuminating factor, the knowing factor of consciousness. It's consciousness that renders our experience knowable. It is consciousness that is knowing your thoughts, that is hearing my words, and so on. But what it doesn't do.

Alex Ferrari 29:19
Hey guys, I really hope you're enjoying this conversation. And the one thing I've noticed recently is that most of you are not subscribed to our YouTube channel. It's free, and it really helps us out a lot. So if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe, like, and share this content so we can continue to help elevate the consciousness of the planet. Thank you so much, and let's get back to the conversation,

Rupert Spira 29:41
Because there is a a distance in this analogy. Because there is a distance between the bulb and the movie, it suggests that consciousness is one thing, and experience is something else. Because the bulb is one thing, and the movie is. Something else, so that's why I use the analogy of the of of your of a laptop screen, where the the bulb, the light is in the screen, but the screen is also the the medium within which the movie is taking place, and that that's that has more this analogy using the idea of a laptop screen, where the where the bulb, the film, and the screen are all the same thing, is a closer analogy to consciousness because consciousness is not just that which knows our experience; it's also the medium within which all experience arises, and it's not only the medium within which experience arises. It is also that of which all experience is a modulation, just like the movie could be said to be a modulation of the screen. So I like Yogananda's quote. It has a certain explanatory power. I think once once that analogy has done its job in drawing your attention to the presence of awareness, the knowing element in all experience, it then has to be abandoned in favor of another analogy, which collapses the distinction between awareness, between consciousness and experience.

Alex Ferrari 31:27
I mean, what we're discussing here is essentially Plato's allegory of the cave, and he said that 2000 over 2000 years ago. It's a similar concept, correct?

Rupert Spira 31:36
Absolutely. I am not saying anything that nobody else has been saying. I'm possibly saying it in in a language that is, I hope, contemporary and relevant to our time. But but these ideas, you know, going back to what we were saying about the physical senses giving us a representation of what is really there-that that those are the those are the shadows on the cave on the cave wall. But you know, if Plato had had a laptop and watched movies, he would have upgraded his analogy. He would not have spoken in terms of a fire and the prisoners and their shadows on the wall. He would have, he would have upgraded his, and I believe that Ramana Maharshi, if he, you know, in his time in the mid, in the 1940s and 50s, there were there were cinema screens with projectors at the back of the in the villages of India. That that was the obvious analogy to use. If Ramana Maharshi was alive now and had a laptop, I'm quite sure he would have upgraded his his analogy, and I'm quite sure that that in 30 years' time, when laptops and iMacs are, you know, when we're all looking at at hologram,

Alex Ferrari 32:55
The holodeck, the holodeck from Star Trek,

Rupert Spira 32:58
Exactly. Somebody will upgrade this analogy of the movie and the screen, and it'll all be holograms, just just the world appearing in in a modulation of empty space and a modulation of luminous emptiness.

Alex Ferrari 33:13
I wanted to get your take on this this question because a lot of times we think about something, and you kind of explained it a little bit with experiential. I found that experiential knowledge is so much more powerful than knowledge that you are told by somebody else. Kind of like, hey, if you put your hand in the fire, you're going to burn. Hey, if you put your hand in the fire, you're going to get burned.

Rupert Spira 33:35
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 33:35
And you're like, I understand the concept. Yeah. But until I put my hand in the fire and actually get burned. Then I go. Oh, now I really get it. So, what separates the thought of peace in your life from peace itself?

Rupert Spira 33:51
Let's stick with yoga, the classical analogy of the of the light bulb behind you, as opposed to the movie in front of you, and as you suggested, you have to turn away from the content of the movie in order to see the light bulb. So the analogy for this is that we we turn away from the content of experience, and we we we sink back to the the fact of being or being aware, and and if we do that, if we temporarily turn our attention away from our thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, and we we go back to the simple fact of of being or being aware, that is always at peace. That that's the experience of peace is your nature. Peace is the nature of being, or the the nature of being aware or awareness itself. In just the same way that the screen on which the drama of a movie plays is never disturbed by the drama. It is one with it, but it is not implicated by it. It's the same. The screen of awareness on which the drama of experience plays is totally one with experience, but is never harmed or moved or changed or disturbed by it. And that is is the it's it's this recognition that at the deepest level, the awareness that you essentially are is inherently peaceful,

Alex Ferrari 35:28
Rupert. So I love this now because essentially you just said something that just I never thought of in in this way before. The screen, as you can imagine, I've spent a lot of time in movie screens and movie theaters and working in cinemas, so so I've never thought about this. But the screen itself is not disturbed. You're correct. It's never disturbed by the movie. It is one with it, and no matter the screen does not change, ever.

Rupert Spira 35:53
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 35:53
Until something is projected onto the screen, the laptop screen does not change until it turns on and someone is moving it. The laptop itself is the screen itself in a movie theater is, period. But whatever gets projected onto it is what we perceive. Can we unpack that idea a little bit with the nature of this reality? Because this reality is our screen, but what we project or what is being projected on it, is what we are perceiving. We're getting into deep ends of the water here, so I love this.

Rupert Spira 36:26
No, no, no. This is this is you're you're right. We're going to the very heart of the matter. So first of all, can we can we upgrade the the the traditional metaphor of a of a projector at the back of a cinema projecting something onto a screen, and can we come to a we're watching a movie on Netflix? It's the screen. It's it's not that the movie is not projected onto the screen from the outside. It's the screen itself that modulates itself in the form of the movie. So it so so the movie you you haven't got the screen and something projected onto it all there is is the screen and it's the screen itself that modulates itself in the form of the movie assumes the colors and the shapes of the movie without ever actually ceasing to be the screen

Alex Ferrari 37:21
Right

Rupert Spira 37:21
So that that. that's what I would suggest that it is consciousness, and okay, this is this is more difficult to explain now because consciousness is both the medium on which or in which all experience appears, but it is also that which knows our experience. So consciousness has a luminous quality; it illuminates or knows our experience. But it also has a spacious quality. It contains all experience. Now, consciousness by itself, it being all that there is, it is infinite. There's nothing in itself, other than itself, with which it could be divided or limited. So consciousness itself is is limited, and therefore consciousness cannot know experience directly. Why? Because for there to be experience, there must be a subject and an object, and the subject must stand apart from the object. You can't see your eyes because you can see everything that is at a distance from your eyes. But the one within the limits of the analogy, the one thing your eyes cannot see, are themselves. Why? Because they cannot stand apart from themselves. It's just an analogy. So, likewise, for anything to be known, such as a world, it must be known by a subject that stands apart from it, and this subject-object relationship is the mechanism by which all experience takes place, and this is enshrined in common parlance. I know my thoughts. I feel sad. I perceive the tree, and so on. All experience, with the exception of the awareness of being, takes place in subject-object relationship. So, consciousness by itself is is a realm of infinite potential, but it cannot know that potential by itself. In order to know something, it must localize itself. It must contract into a finite mind. That that's you and me. That's all of us. It must in just the same way that your mind. I'm mixing my metaphors. My apologies. When you have a dream at night, all possible dreams lie in potential in your individual mind. But when you dream one of those dreams, you don't. View it. If you're in in in Austin, Texas, and you dream that you're on the streets of London, you don't view the streets of London from your bed asleep in Tex in in Austin. Your mind simultaneously creates the dream and localizes itself in the dream as a separate subject of experience, from whose point of view your own mind sees its own activity as the streets of London, as the dreamed world. Well, I would suggest that consciousness does exactly the same thing. It it it vibrates within itself, so to speak. It modulates itself. But in order to, but but it cannot experience its own activity directly. It has to it has to divide itself in two. It has to divide itself into a subject and an object, or numerous subjects and numerous objects. And each of us are the numerous subjects that are localizations of infinite consciousness, and it is through our perceiving faculties that consciousness views itself as the world. So, what the world really is is is mind. It's the activity of consciousness in religious language-it's-it's God's mind. But but because we view that the activity of consciousness through the screen of perception, we experience it in a way that's consistent with our perceiving faculties. Our perceiving faculties consist of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, and not surprisingly, we experience reality as sight, sounds, taste, textures, and smells. There are no sights, sounds, taste, textures, and smells out there. There's no physical world out there. Our perceiving faculties render the activity of infinite consciousness as a physical world, but so in other words, what we perceive as the physical world takes place at the interface between infinite consciousness and each of our finite minds, and this is what the poet William Wordsworth meant when he said, "We half perceive, half create the world. So the world exists outside of our individual minds. I'm not suggesting that all there is to the world is the projection of our individual mind. There is a reality to the world outside and independent of each of our finite minds, but the finite mind gives the world its appearance.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Right.

Rupert Spira 42:46
So the world owes its reality to infinite consciousness, but it borrows its appearance from the finite mind.

Alex Ferrari 42:53
Well, it's very much like the old saying: If a tree falls in the in the forest and no one's there to see it, does it actually fall, or can you hear it, or something along those lines? It's something similar, right?

Rupert Spira 43:05
But even more than that, if the tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? If if there's no one there to hear it, you see the question presumes that there's still a tree and there's still a forest, and the tree falls in the forest, but there's no one there to hear it, so it doesn't make a sound. If there's no one there to hear it, there's no one there to see it, and if there's no one there to see it, there's no tree and there's no forest. the The reality of the tree and the forest, what they really are in and of themselves, is present. But but what is that? It's it's an idea. It's the activity of consciousness. It's mind, not matter. It's only our perceiving faculties that renders the activity of infinite consciousness as a physical world.

Alex Ferrari 43:55
You said the word rendered a few times, and I understand what you mean by render because in in the in in the language of today, a computer is rendered or visual effects are rendered on a screen. So you're rendering something. So in a construct like this, we are rendering the reality. I've been I've been told and I've seen this as well or heard about this as well that right now in this room where I'm in, this is my reality. The door is closed. You and me were the only things that really exist in the world at this moment in time. You are in your office looking at me, and your reality is your room. But we both know that outside we have perceived other things: the streets of London, the streets of Austin, For example, but the reality is rendered as needed by the perceiver. In other words, right now would be a really big waste of time. In my and I'm really getting into deep philosophical conversation here, but in the deep, it would be a waste of computing. Let's say to render the streets of London. If I'm not perceiving them right now, in other words, right now my perceive my perception is not rendering the streets of London. It's not rendering anything outside of this room.

Rupert Spira 45:11
Yes, yes, and absolutely right. And why is that? Because in order to maintain you, Alex, as this temporary localization of infinite consciousness. You you must have a boundary, and and that boundary it's your perceiving faculties that create the boundary that create the illusion of you being an individual located in space, and so it and because because you are boundary by your perceiving faculties-it's seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling-that make you feel localized and limited in space. Now, in order to maintain that limited, that localization called Alex, your perceiving faculties have to exclude the vast majority of reality, and only give you what is necessary for you to be able to thrive and survive in nature. So the vast majority of what is is present in reality is excluded from each of our minds. If it was not excluded, if the whole of reality were to flood into your mind, it would be like trying to get the totality of space into your office. It would be the walls would be blown to smithereens, so that that our perceiving faculties are like a filter that that they exclude the vast majority of what is present in reality, and they also present it to us in a way that doesn't that that doesn't select for for truth. It selects for fitness and reproduction. Our perceiving faculties help us survive and reproduce. They're not supposed to give us a true version of reality. On the contrary, they're supposed to exclude the vast majority of reality from us because we would not be able to function if we if we, if we could see the whole of reality, so our senses filter most of reality and give us just what we need to be able to survive and function and reproduce.

Alex Ferrari 47:35
Very similar. Even in this, with that example, even this room that I'm in, my mind is focused on you, unless I go. Hey, look at everything else around me in this room. Look at the lights. Look at the screen in front of you. Look over there. Look over there. Then it starts to get a little overwhelming. But my mind is focused 100% on you right now because that's

Speaker 2 47:55
Yes.

Alex Ferrari 47:56
What and I'm assuming you're the same. You're not thinking about all the books behind you and reading all those books and what the information of those books are, other things like that. So it is it is a technique to do that. Now I want to even get a little bit more. That's the micro, but how about the macro? So as a human, as human consciousness, as humanity itself, we are also filtered out by what's in the universe by design. So other solar systems, other planets, other possible civilizations. Imagine if we had a clear view of another civilization on another planet. Somehow, our brains would fry if we had that reality mixed with our reality.

Rupert Spira 48:35
Yes, yes. I mean, take infinite. If we at least provisionally accept that infinite consciousness, and by infinite consciousness, I don't mean consciousness that that is extended indefinitely in all directions. I mean consciousness that has no dimensions. It is it is our our VR headset of thought and perception that expands consciousness into time and space. In other words, time and space are not inherent in reality. They're just how reality appears when looked at through the lens of thought and perception. But now, now to your question, there may be other kinds of mind in consciousness that the that how unlikely is it that infinite consciousness would only localize itself as a bundle of thinking and perceiving that constitutes a human being and a few other animals? There may be there may be other minds that don't think or perceive that have different faculties. You remember the film? Oh, it was the film about the.

Alex Ferrari 49:50
Oh, the arrival. The arrival.

Rupert Spira 49:52
The arrival. Yeah, Chick Arrive. Amy Adams. That was a good example. And you remember the woman who who then

Alex Ferrari 49:57
Amy Adams tries to communicate.

Rupert Spira 50:00
She tries to talk. She tries to communicate, and then she's watching, and she realizes that there they think that their thinking is circular. It's not linear. So our thinking is linear. So we impose the idea of time. Time is linear. That we we don't think about time because it exists. It seems to exist because we think about it, and because we because we think time seems to be linear. But but but in the arrival, these aliens they they they had different powers of of of mind, and therefore

Alex Ferrari 50:41
Process the process.

Rupert Spira 50:43
So for them, time was circular, not not linear. So that there could be other kinds of mind in reality that our perceiving faculties are not sufficiently calibrated to apprehend, except under extraordinary circumstances, now there could be extraordinary circumstances where there may be an enlargement or a relaxation of the limits of our perceiving faculties, where where we are able to apprehend a greater degree of reality than we are currently able to do. In which case, such a mind would break into the space-time that we experience from our limited point of view, and you would see an alien. So the the alien would be the representation of a different kind of mind perceived through our perceiving faculties, that there could be such minds in in reality. I don't mean in time and space. I mean in reality, not in not in the time and space that our minds know, because reality is not in time and space. Time and space is just our interface. I don't know if I'm explaining that clearly.

Alex Ferrari 52:05
No, no, it it it makes it makes all the sense in the world. It's it's fascinating to think about these ideas because you're starting. We're we're getting well. There's there's a concept in near death experience. I'm not sure how much how much research or experiencer you have with near death experiencers. I've spoken to probably a couple 100 of them, and there's a con. Yes, so the concept that is said again and again in many of these near death experiences is that when they're on the other side and they're experiencing pure love, pure bliss, and all of that, there's one thing that's pertinent to our conversation: is that all of a sudden they understand everything. They have all the knowledge at their disposal whenever they think about it. So the second the question is answered, a question is asked, the answer is there instantly. It's like they're tapped into the cloud. I use it. I use it as the cloud to give an analogy. We're tapped into the cloud, so all of a sudden, instead of going in and like manually pulling out a file or pulling out a book, all books are open, all files are open instantly, and all you need to do is focus your attention on the question or what you're interested in, and the answer is instant. So they would be like, "What is quantum physics like? Oh, I understand quantum physics now, and they and like, "Oh, what is that? Oh, I understand that now. So, oh, that's what the meaning of life is. And they have these large questions that they get answered up there, but when they come back, they lose it all because this computer cannot process the cloud. Like this laptop in front of me, can't process every piece of information on the internet at the same time.

Rupert Spira 53:46
Exactly, exactly. So, so when you when you die, when you have a a near death experience, so you you basically you take off the headset of thought and perception. You are released from the limits of thinking and perceiving, and and as a result, knowledge that previously lay outside your apprehension now is is is possible for you to to understand because you're you're you're you're you have a greater access to to reality. You're you're not squeezed into this narrow, narrow frame of thinking and perceiving, which just gives us a a narrow slice, narrow window onto reality. The window is expanded, and and and what you see, we're so conditioned by the faculties of thought and perception, we we think space time is is is the the medium in which reality takes place. We think space time is fundamental to reality. It's not. It's just our interface. It's just how reality appears when we look at it through the narrow lens of thought and perception. We we look at it through thought through thought and perception. So we see four dimensions of space time, but there could be there could be other minds that that perceive in six dimensions or eight dimensions, or if if if if those minds are configured in a way that is that that is different from ours.

Alex Ferrari 55:19
Now I wanted to change the subject for a second, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on spiritual bypassing, which is a concept that I've recently kind of dived into, which is where people use, let's say, enlightenment talk or spiritual talk to avoid real real feelings, and using it as a technique to to trick the brain into thinking that it's actually doing work and on themselves, or really digging into something when actually they're avoiding their true feelings by focusing on that. Does that make sense? And what are your thoughts on that?

Rupert Spira 55:57
I think the accusation that is sometimes leveled at well, people like myself that that draw attention to the presence of awareness. That that that to use Yogananda's analogy, that that turn around away from the that don't get involved in the content of the movie. They they turn around. They're interested in the nature of the light bulb. That the accusation that is sometimes leveled at them, and and at them, I should say, us is it's a legitimate objection, but it's also very at best it's a legitimate objection. At worst, it's a misunderstanding, because I would suggest at least the way I speak about these matters is that it is necessary to turn away from the the movie, the drama of experience, in order to recognize your true nature and its inherent peace. You have to. I'm obviously not my thoughts. I am that which is aware of them. I'm obviously not my feelings. I'm that which feels them, and so on. So this initial turning away from experience is necessary, and you get this in all the Vedantic tradition as well as the tantric tradition. Now, if that was the end of the journey, then one could be legitimately accused of neglecting the content of experience, and even using the this recognition of the nature of awareness as a means of not dealing with the messy business of everyday life, but I would suggest that to go back to the presence of awareness and recognize its nature as peace and fulfillment is only half the journey. That once you've done that, it's necessary to turn around again and go back to your messy life and infuse, integrate what you've understood of your true nature into your life, into the way you think and feel, into the way you act and perceive and relate with others.

Alex Ferrari 58:07
So it's it's kind of like if you were in the Himalayas in a cave meditating for 40 years, and you discover enlightenment. the The job is not done there. The job is now come down from the mountain, go into the world, become a CEO. Do something that you can infuse this information, this knowledge, this experience into not only your everyday life, but hopefully inspire others by you as an example.

Rupert Spira 58:33
Yes, you you bring back the fruits of this understanding, and it not only takes you to peace and fulfillment in yourself, but you share it with humanity. That's one thing. And the second thing is that it's relatively easy to to be peaceful in a cave when when your kids aren't disturbing you and you haven't got any bills to pay. And but you know, come back to your life as a as a CEO or an employee or something. That is a. It's. I I think it's a not only a very good test but a necessary test because a peace that is only peace in the privacy of your bedroom or your cave or it's a fragile peace it's a brittle peace that is easily disturbed and the peace of your true nature is the peace that passeth understanding it's the peace that cannot be disturbed and there's no better place to have that tested than family life and and a full time job.

Alex Ferrari 59:30
Like Ram Dass says, he goes, "Oh, you think you're spiritual? Spend a weekend with your family.

Rupert Spira 59:35
Exactly, exactly. I think you know, family life, full time job, life in the world, it's it's a it's it's not only it's not in any place to express the fruits of our understanding, but it also tests our understanding, and that's very important. It shows us that those those aspects of ourself that are not yet aligned with this understanding, and. We need that. We need the world, our friends, our colleagues. We need to have that reflected back to us.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:09
Rupert, what happens to the awareness when the body dies?

Rupert Spira 1:00:13
What happens to awareness when the body dies is what happens to the space of your room that you're sitting in now, when your room will one day be demolished. In other words,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:29
This body, this body will will go.

Rupert Spira 1:00:32
No, no. I'm using an analogy. The space in your room, the the space, the physical space. It's an analogy. The physical space in your room, which now seems to be a temporary, finite space, because it's enclosed in the four walls of your room. What will happen to it when your building is demolished? Nothing. It'll just no. The space will stay the same. The space won't. The space. Nothing will happen to the space. It'll just remain as it is. The walls will go. The books will go. The furniture will go. The pictures will go. Everything will go, but nothing will happen to the space. I I think death death is like that.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
Oh, that's beautiful. I never even thought about that. That you're absolutely right because right now what I'm perceiving in this room is just the room. It is not. This room will not be here for another 3000 years. It won't. It will go.

Rupert Spira 1:01:28
And it wasn't there 3000 years ago, but the space.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:32
But the space was, unless it was underwater and we were in Atlantis. But that's another conversation. Well, okay, the instruction guided you too fast. No, but I understand what I mean. But the point is, the space, regardless if it's underwater or not, the space on the planet stays. Exactly,

Rupert Spira 1:01:48
Exactly, and and even more than that. How old is your building? Let's say

Alex Ferrari 1:01:55
10. No, no, no, no. It's about 10-15, years old, something like that.

Rupert Spira 1:01:59
Okay, let's say 20 years ago, it was just the open and the vast space of the universe. Now, when your building was put up, did anything actually happen to the space? Did it suddenly cease being the vast space of the universe and become a temporary, finite space? No, that the space in your room now is not really the space in your room. It's the vast space of the universe. It it's that now. It was that before your building was put up. It's that during the existence of your building, and it will remain that when the building is taken down. I would suggest exactly the same is true of infinite awareness. Infinite awareness is is all there is. Infinite consciousness is all there is. When it clothes itself temporarily in human experience, in thought and perception, it seems to localize itself, just like the vast space of the universe seems to be localized in your room, but even when it seems to be localized in your room, it's still the vast space of the universe. the The awareness that is the essence of each of us now is now infinite awareness. It it's that now. So just as when your building is demolished, the space in your room is not suddenly going to unite with the vast space of the universe. It's that already. Or when we die, we don't suddenly unite with infinite consciousness. That's what we are now at the deepest level.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:38
We just take off. You take off the headset. You take off the headset.

Rupert Spira 1:03:42
You take off the headset of thought and perception. And and you you consciousness are relieved of time and space. Time and space are just how you appear to yourself when you're wearing the headset of thought and perception. You're just relieved of an apparent but not real limitation.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:01
Now, Rupert, if someone's feeling totally lost right now in life in general, where would they? Where would you suggest they start with these ideas, this concept that could help them?

Rupert Spira 1:04:13
Ask themselves this question. So, let's say they're totally lost. They're they're upset. They're anxious. They're hurt. They have conflict in their relationship. Their job's not going well. That that that they're struggling in life. You could start like this. You just ask yourself a question. What is it that is aware of my experience? Not what am I aware of? What am I aware of? Thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, activities. That's what I'm aware of. But what is it that is aware of all of this? That's turning around and looking at the light bulb. That's tracing your way back. I'm obviously not my thoughts. I am that which knows my thoughts. I'm obviously not my feelings. I'm that which is aware of my feelings. So you you trace your way back through the layers of experience, temporarily discarding anything that's not essential to you. You're going back to your being, and you go all the way back to your being. It's peaceful there. It's so simple that everybody's nature is peace, and it's available to everybody 24/7. But because we look for it out in the world, and of course never find it, we we overlook or forget or ignore that the peace we really long for is in the depths of our being, and to go there, we just have to temporarily. It's like standing back from the content of your experience, taking a step back into your being, or into awareness,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:04
Is that what meditation does in many ways?

Rupert Spira 1:06:07
Absolutely, that's what meditation is exactly. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:10
It's it's it's a way to silence the noise, to look inward, and many people could do it through prayer and and and through a dance, like

Rupert Spira 1:06:19
Yes, but it's a slightly different approach because most approaches to meditation, as as you just rightly said, you first of all silence the noise in order to get back to your true nature. I'm recommending the opposite. Don't worry about the noise. It doesn't matter what is happening on the screen. The bulb that illuminates it is the same. If you don't try and don't don't start a battle with your thoughts and feelings, what you're interested in is what it is that is aware of your thoughts and feelings. It doesn't matter what's happening in your thoughts and feelings, whether you have the thought two plus two equals four, or whether you have the thought two plus two equals five, both thoughts are known by the same awareness. It doesn't matter what the content of your thoughts or feelings are; the awareness with which they are known is the same. So you don't have to change the content of the movie, the content of your experience, in order to recognize yourself as awareness, you just have to temporarily let go of the content of experience. Just, just let it go. Not change it. Not get rid of it. Just, just let it go. It's the drama in the movie. You let it go. You are the screen.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:40
What is the purpose of our individual life? Why are we like? Why do people go through a life that suffers and the that live a very loving life, or live a very rich life, or live a poor life? What is the? We've explained a lot about the nature of reality, but the true question is, why are we in this reality? What is the purpose?

Rupert Spira 1:08:01
That it, as I tried to explain before, infinite consciousness by itself cannot perceive the world. It cannot know the potential that lies inside it. In order to do so, it has to localize itself as a finite mind, so each of us are the eyes and ears of infinite consciousness, through which infinite consciousness perceives itself as the world. So, from a universal point of view, our purpose is to is to manifest the potential that lies in infinite consciousness. Infinite consciousness only has access to its own innate potential through each of us. So that that's our purpose from a universal point of view. Now, our purpose from an individual point of view. Once we have localized as a separate self or a finite mind. We are, by definition, in in a state of contraction. We we we we're really infinite consciousness, but we've been squeezed into a finite mind. And as a result of this this limitation or contraction, that there's a tension in all of us, in the hearts of everyone, there is this existential longing. What we call that longing varies from person to person: peace, happiness, fulfillment, God, enlightenment. But there is this longing, and what we're really longing for is to be relieved of this, the tension of separation, the contraction of being a temporary, finite self. We're longing to go back to our original condition, and we experience that longing as the desire for happiness. When we desire happiness, we. Not really desiring the object or the substance or the relationship. What we're really longing for is to be divested of the limitations of experience that we have borrowed from experience, and to be returned to our natural condition. So, as an individual, I think that's our purpose in life. Our primary purpose is to is to recognize who we are at the deepest level, and then our secondary purpose as an individual is to express that recognition in life, to to share it to the best of our ability with humanity, or whatever that means for each of us.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:39
Ru, of every book or talk you've ever given vanished tomorrow. What is one sentence you would like to survive?

Rupert Spira 1:10:47
This is the the one sentence that I would like to remain, and the one sentence that actually contains within it the entirety of everything I've ever said or written, and it's this: peace and happiness are the nature of your being, and you share your being with everyone and everything.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:09
Beautifully said, Rupert. Beautifully said, Rupert. Where can people find out more about you and the amazing work you're doing in the world?

Rupert Spira 1:11:16
Thank you for asking. The first place to go, YouTube. I have well from one. I don't you you understand. So I have numerous 1500 YouTube you know clips. So that's the first place to go. Go to my YouTube channel, Rupert Spira. The second place to go. I have an app. It's a free app. It's called Luminous. If you just look for Luminous Rupert Spira in the App Store, it's a free app, and it's just one short 10-minute meditation for free every day. So that's another place where where I can distill the understanding into very manageable 10-minute contemplations. I have a Substack channel, which I publish regularly to, called the Transparency of Things, Rupert Spira, and my website rupertspira.com.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:12
Rupert, it has been an absolute pleasure and honor speaking to you today. I likewise. I I feel I feel more at peace after this conversation. These concepts have been. I've talked at nauseum about these kind of concepts, but I always am interested in the energy and the perspective of different teachers, because, like you said before, we're not reinventing the wheel here. What we've been talking about has been said for millennia, but it needs to be translated into the words of today. Just like a movie that was made in the 20s needs to be remade today because it just won't hit the audience the way it did before. Yeah. So I appreciate you, my friend, and everything you're doing to help awaken this planet. So thank you so much.

Rupert Spira 1:13:01
Well, Alex, likewise, the beautiful work you you do in the world. It's it's it's also my pleasure and honor to to speak with you and and and with your audience. So thank you again for inviting me.