How Transcendental Meditation Can Change the World with Dr. Tony Nader

Dr. Tony Nader 0:00
Reality on the outside is not independent from our inner reality and how we perceive it.

Alex Ferrari 0:09
So there is hope. There is hope that we can do that.

Dr. Tony Nader 0:11
You're all doing that. What if there is something of a different dimension that can also help those people, because the more you grow, the more you expand, the less you are limited. And that's what gives happiness, what we see and what we experience is actually only one aspect of the reality of what is out there. You want to take Christianity that says the kingdom of heaven is within you, going beyond the sensory experience into the self. And so what does it mean the kingdom of heaven? It means that place which has no limitations to be more rather than to have more you.

Alex Ferrari 1:07
I like to welcome to the show Dr. Tony Nader, how you doing Dr. Tony?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:10
Fine! Thank you. Thank you. I'm well.

Alex Ferrari 1:13
Thank you so much for coming. I'm when, when you came across my desk, I was very excited, because I've been a fan of the maharishi. I've been fan of Transcendental Meditation for a long time, and, of course, consciousness and I've had many people on the show, but I've never had someone who met the Maharishi directly and had an interaction with him. I think, no, I had one other person. He also met the Beatles that day, but that's another conversation altogether. So before we jump down those rabbit holes, were you raised spiritually? Did you have any kind of religious background when you were coming up?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:52
Yeah, I was raised Christian in the background. Went to a Jesuit school for 12 years in Lebanon and so I was strong, and I still in some, many ways, spiritual seeker and also believing in something that is bigger than the material world that we see around us.

Alex Ferrari 2:16
Isn't it? The Jesuits who said that, give me, I think the quote is, give me a boy for the first seven years, and I will tell them, I will tell you what the man he will become is that, have you?

Dr. Tony Nader 2:27
Yeah, it could be. It's typical, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 2:30
Because it's like those seven years of the programming years where our software is being being, kind of being developed as we're as we're moving forward.

Dr. Tony Nader 2:40
Yeah, definitely. I mean, there is a always chance to update the software and

Alex Ferrari 2:47
Thank god. Thank god. It's like, I always joke is like we do the first seven years we learn, we get programmed for the first seven years and the rest of our lives, trying to deprogram ourselves from those first years as we grow and evolve. Yeah, so what got you Well, first you went down the road of becoming a doctor working in neuroscience. What? What drew you to that, to that world?

Dr. Tony Nader 3:14
I was always fascinated to understand human beings. What can we do about them? And, you know, I come from a family where there were many, many doctors, uncles and nephews and cousins and, you know, grandparent and all of that. And so I was kind of destined to be in the medical profession. But in my heart, it was both things, first a vocation to help others, but also to understand how we can develop our full potential. How can we be the best we can, and thinking that human physiology and body is what really is the making of who we are, besides our inner spiritual side, I thought, if I understood, what are the motivations that make people do what they do or think the way they think? Maybe I'll understand more about how I can develop myself and help others develop their full potential.

Alex Ferrari 4:12
So as you were so, as you were growing up, you very similar to me. I was raised Catholic. It, it was an is a way of impressing upon you that there was a greater power in the in the universe than you. There was a higher power than you, regardless if you might have believed in the dogma or not believe in the dogma, but it at least planted that seed. It sounds like that's what happened with you as well.

Dr. Tony Nader 4:33
Yeah, absolutely, I was one of those, you know, who was defending the existence of God but trying to find also logics for it, trying to overcome mysteries, which were also baffling, in the sense of there are so many unknowns, and you have to depend on faith. And I thought that truth is one, and why can't we human beings understand it? And. Often you are told that this is beyond the human intellect, beyond the ability to grasp, you know, the understanding of you know, supreme, mysterious mysteries of divine nature. But I was a seeker of trying to feel and understand how we can get closer to the Divine, how we can get closer to God or to that spiritual power or energy, or something different than just our physical reality. And so I kept looking in that direction, and actually, I think I have found the answers, which can sound pretentious, but it's a lifetime search, and it really allowed me to come with some great solutions, looking at it from different perspectives, from Eastern perspective, from different religions, different aspects of the Bible, The ancient testament, the modern testament, whatever they call it, from different perspectives, even the beliefs of the Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism and Taoism and confuci ism and philosophy and all of that. So I did start as a medical doctor, but I went a lot into philosophy of of the mind, philosophy of science and understanding, how we can answer those big, big questions in life,

Alex Ferrari 6:30
How did you balance your right and left brain? Because to become a medical doctor, it's very grounded. You know, material, I'm fixing something material. It's, it's not woo, woo at all. And then on the other side, it's like, as your side hustle, you would, you would be studying the metaphysical stuff and the the more esoteric ideas, I mean, philosophies and things, those two things, generally, the philosophical doctor is generally not a thing that exists, generally speaking,

Dr. Tony Nader 7:03
Exactly and specifically, also a lot of, yeah, you know, people have hobbies, and I was, I liked hobby, I liked exercise, I like sports, I had friends and all that. But when I had the time, you know, I I read and I read. I read the philosophers, the existentialists, I read the different, you know, perspectives from idealist perspective, from different schools of philosophy. And it was my hobby and way of getting into something intellectually stimulating besides the critical intelligence, you know, and critical thinking of the left brain. And I was lucky that I learned Transcendental Meditation at the beginning of my medical school, and it accompanied me and was giving me not just an intellectual knowledge, but also a profound direct experience, which was really something missing. Oftentimes we have in science and philosophy, intellectual understanding and logic and all of that, but there are theories and then one of the best ways to grasp reality is through direct experience. However, direct experience comes to us through the senses, and I have learned through medical study and neuroscience and Psychiatry and Neurology and all of what I have been through that our senses are open to huge levels of interpretation by the brain itself, that what we see is not necessarily what is there exactly? It's only one aspect, one layer of reality. And so the direct sensory experience was not a reference, but within ourself, there is a system of transcending, of going beyond the sensory experience into the self, and then experiencing within ourselves something of a bigger nature, of a larger proportion, of a greater depth and greater widths and greater ability to see something which you know, you have we have heard about, and as I was growing up, I have heard about in terms of, you know, what they call saints who had moments of Epiphany, moments of Beatitude, and people who were, you know, like St Augustine was not a believer. He was walking on the beach, and he was, his mother was a great Catholic and believer, but he was of a completely different opinion. And then he had an experience, one amazing experience, a moment of awakening. And he felt there is something spiritual that is beyond just the physical reality. And so he started to look into it, and became, you know, a religious person, because that was what is available for him in terms of knowledge. And so, you know, in answer to the question, I was practicing Transcendental Meditation, and it gave me this experience in a systematic way, which means not just, I don't know why I'm feeling like this suddenly, you know, there are elements in life that put you at a point where you suddenly experience some beautiful something, and then you want to search it again. You want to have it again. You know it's really what matters. Because we live our lives through our consciousness, through our awareness. And if your awareness experiences that wholeness, that fullness, you really feel closer to something more divine than the daily, daily, you know, worries of life, etc, and then you start wanting to have it again. And so I was lucky during this program at the beginning of my medical student school to learn Transcendental Meditation. And in spite of the chaos that was around me, because I grew up in Lebanon. I did my medical schooling at the American University in Beirut, and there was a civil war, which was terrible, and just made me think, what are people doing? You know, what is going on? Why? Why so much hatred? Why so much nonsense? Why so much killing, etc, etc? And they, you know, can they find a solution on a certain level? And so it pushed me to try to understand more human mind. That's why later I studied psychiatry, and, you know, did neurology and did brain science, neuroscience. But in the middle of all of that, there was one reference point that was always with me, and it is my true inner self, and that is transcending, which means to go beyond the surface level of the mind, the surface level of considerations, of memories, of attachment, even of everything, and go to a peaceful inner place where you're feeling really, really settled and expanded. And so that anchored me in that wonderful place that you know inspired me, even though I continued my medicine, I continued my psychiatry and later on. So it took, like, 10 years of scientific research and study and all of that, but this was really the anchor, and that's why I when I finished, you know, medical school and specialization and brain science and got a PhD on top of the MD, I just wanted to explore that field of consciousness more, because I knew it's a level of reality and a level of experience that can make all the difference, if in one and how one lives one's Life really independently of logic. And, you know, convincing and compromising and all of that.

Alex Ferrari 13:25
So before we go down the before we talk about the Maharishi in that experience with transcendental meditation, you said something a second ago that really stuck with me, when you said that you're looking at physical things in the in this reality, but, but you're able to, but that's just one layer of what it is. Can you kind of explain that to people who don't understand that concept?

Dr. Tony Nader 13:49
Yeah, it's, I mean, the best way is to take examples. For example, we know that our eyes see only a certain frequency of light, from the red to violet, you don't see infrared, so like lower frequencies, and you don't see ultraviolet, which has higher frequencies, and you don't see X rays and gamma rays and all of that. But all of these are different wavelengths of electromagnetic field, so you have all these wavelengths of light, this vibration of light, and we see only one part of the spectrum, so that is limited. So we see only a person, aspect of reality. We don't see the whole thing, for example, hearing. We also have a certain range, you know, of decibels, or frequency of sound that we hear. And the dog, for example, hears more than what we actually can hear. And so these are just simple examples that tell us that actually already our senses are limited in their ability to see. See what we conceive as the environment. So we are really building the environment based on what our senses allows us to see, and it's real and it's necessary. I don't say that. You know, we all agree, and we have to have a world in which we all agree, and we agree on that, and we live in that now what what is also interesting is that reality is different in different states of consciousness. For example, when you are dreaming, your brain constructs the reality which is not the reality that you live when you are awake, and during the dream, you believe in it. It's not that. It's you know, it's you sit and there and observe it and say, Well, I'm watching a movie. You're not watching a movie. You're an actor in it. And the reality for you is whatever you are dreaming about. It's completely real if you're dreaming of a tiger bouncing on you, your heart rate is going to increase. Your breathing rate, your muscles will tense and more, and you know, there will be a reaction, even though, in dreaming, the muscles are completely paralyzed so that you don't act on it, you start running away from the from the tiger. So that's one part, but the reality is different than during the dream than it is in the waking state. And so many psychological studies have shown that we construct actually the world, and we say, construct reality based on what our senses allow us to see and how our brain reconstruct those realities, also from within. So indeed, you know, for example, if you take color blind people, they will see things from a different perspective and different colors. Now you can say this is superficial, but studies have been done that show that what we see and what we experience is actually only one aspect of the reality of what is out there. Now this has become more acute and more dramatic when scientists started to look into the finer levels of the physical universe, and there, you know, they go from molecules to atoms to particles, sub particles, you know. And then they found that actually, everything is based on waves, electromagnetic waves that that means that what we call matter and physicality is actually ultimately on the finest level, is like an ocean having waves, and we are looking at one wave rather than looking at the Ocean. And so as you go deeper, scientists have found that there is more unified levels of nature, ultimately leading to what they call the unified field of all the laws of nature, which is one field. It's like an ocean, let's say that appears as many waves and many vibrations, and that we, as humans, we see them as different on the surface level, but they are actually all interconnected, and they are based on a deeper reality, which is the reality of the ocean. So if your eyes can only see the wave, let's say you're sitting on a wave in the ocean, in a boat, and let's say your eyes have only the ability to see that one particular wave with the boat on which you are, then your whole reality is that wave. You don't know that there are even other waves and how to interact with the other waves. And if you expand your awareness more and more, you can see more of the other waves. And if you dive deep, actually into the ocean, you will find that all these surface waves are part of one ocean. So this is how to simplify the idea, or maybe, you know, I don't know how, to what extent it sounds simpler now that Indeed, indeed, there is reality which is deeper than what we see on the surface, that we cannot fathom with our senses, but we can fathom with our intellect at some level and a deeper level with our direct experience

Alex Ferrari 19:41
Does make a lot of sense, because even now, if we were on the on the ocean in a boat, looking at waves, our perception is basically the waves, but there is miles, literally miles of depth of ocean that things are happening there, and we can't perceive what's going on in there. We have to have machines to go down. And even. Then we still have very limited, you know, holes in a in a submarine, to see what's happening. We still don't have a complete understanding of what's happening down there. I always use the example of consciousness, and I'd love to hear your your opinion on this. I feel that consciousness is we're at the bottom of the Mariana Trench, and because we're so deep down there, it's extremely difficult to move. There's a lot of pressure on you, and it's just a little bit it's just very, very difficult to move. Hence our reality here it's, you know, this dense, three dimensional reality. As we rise our consciousness, through meditations, through awakenings and things like that, we start to go towards the surface. And if anyone who's ever been in the ocean knows, the closer you get to the surface, the easier it is to move. It's a little bit easier to see now, because there's light coming from the sun down in Mary in the trench, there's no light. But as we keep going up, raising our consciousness, we start to see more. Start to move more. The break point. The breaking point is the surface beyond the surface where air hits. That is the other side. That is where masters live, that's where saints live, that's where source lives, and so on. And we're all trying to get to that place, because once you break through that that field or that layer, it's easy to move. It feels like a completely other universe from even being in the water a foot is so different than being out of the water for a foot. So we're always trying to raise our consciousness and the other side, it has a difficult time going down into the ocean, because why would they like it's not the that's not the laws. What do you think of that analogy? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Dr. Tony Nader 21:47
It's interesting from a certain point of view. Because, you know, analogies illustrate reality. They are not actually exact reality, of course, of course. And analogies have, you know their limitations also. So you can see it from different different perspectives. So if you say, you can, you know there is a point at which you are acting on the surface and you need there to have your senses projected outside. Then, of course, that is where you are in the waking state of consciousness. That's what we call the usual waking state of consciousness. And the question is, how deep is your perception from? Where does, for example, your creative, creative thoughts, where do they come from? And they come actually from a deep level, which you are not aware of. We can call this subconscious, or the unconscious, or deeper levels, where thoughts come and then, oh, we are on the surface. We see the thought, we experience it, and we live it, and we are calm and familiar with that. The this is, I feel, this is where the analogy kind of takes a different direction, and the sense that if you are the ocean, then you are no more an individual wave or an individual that is waiting for The air on the surface to breathe and to be seeing things from this perspective, if you are the ocean yourself, which is what you know, I propose, and which the ancient Vedic you know knowledge and Maharishi, whom you mentioned, from whom I have learned this and experiencing this myself, then you are a master of the entire ocean, because you are that. And so there is a technology of actually diving into that ocean and being more and more comfortable as you dive, and actually finding that you see more and more once you are acclimatized and able to be on that level. So this is where the analogy stops, because if a human being dives into the ocean, you know you need to have a scuba diving or breathing machine, and you have only some oxygen. So the analogy has its limitation. Sure, if we take it that you are the ocean, then you are no more just an individual who's waiting to come on the surface to get some fresh air. You just are the ocean. And one aspect of yourself is that surface aspect, where you want to create movement, where you create things. So here we say that if you want to create a big wave on the surface of the ocean, you have to have the depths of the ocean available to you to create a big wave, because in a little cup of water, you can only create ripples. Maybe. In a swimming pool, a little more in a lake, a slightly bigger waves. But if you want to be dynamic on the outside and be have powerful on the outside, you have to create powerful waves. And you can only create powerful waves from the depths of a powerful deep ocean. And since we are the ocean, therefore we are all we have all these levels. And that brings us, actually, nicely to the questions we've discussed before, where the vision of what is us? Who are we? Who are you? What are you? Are you the wave? Yes, you are the wave when you are on the surface, but in reality, you have forgotten that you are the ocean, and that is where the technologies of consciousness to expand consciousness, you actually don't expand outward, although that has its own importance, and we can come back to that. But the way to expand is to go inward, so to close the eyes and take the the senses and interest and dental meditation, we use the sense of hearing the sound, because we use a mantra that has no meaning a sound, and the mind actually settles down where that sound, which we teach as a part of the practice, is a vehicle that allows you to acclimatize and dive deep and dive deep and dive Deep within and feel more and more comfortable, and actually blissful and expanding. This is where you expand the wave to start feeling I am the ocean, not just the wave. And then when you are at the bottom of the ocean, then all things settle down. There is total silence, there is kind of nothingness on the surface activity, but there is still wakefulness. This is what is beautiful, because when you practice this technique, you dive deep within, and you find the quietness, the silence, the silence settling in. But you don't lose awareness. In fact, you experience and this. Millions of people have experienced it. You experience their awareness expanding. It's no more limited in terms of one thought, one feeling, one worry, one memory, what I have done, what should be learned, what are my beliefs, my limiting beliefs, my what people have told me, the stress that I have, you transcend all that, and when I transcend all that, you literally experience yourself as unbounded. And that is, that is really where, when you come back to the surface, you come back with that whole power of the ocean that has all the steps.

Alex Ferrari 28:03
So it sounds to me that when, when a soul is able to in this incarnation, trans, when they are able to get to a certain place in the revolution, spiritually, they are basically you're in a search for truth, the truth that who you truly are. We have been lied to by reality, that we are just these bones and muscle and meat, meat sacks, as they say, skin sacks full of meat walking around where it is just a suit. And the more you start to awaken, the more you understand the truth of reality and also the truth of who you truly are. And these saints that we're talking about, like the Maharishi and Yogananda and Jesus and Bucha and these kind of people, were able to transcend the reality, but still balance themselves and live within the reality to help others, going, you're the ocean. Do you not understand you're the ocean? And everyone's like, no, no, no, we're still on the beach. We're not even looking we're not even in a boat in the ocean. Yet, what are you talking about, once you understand is that, does that make sense?

Dr. Tony Nader 29:15
Absolutely, yes. Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly that, that's exactly the reality that, you know, they use the term enlightenment, and you know, which means getting to the light and seeing things, because you express the term of knowing the truth, the truth with you know, an capital characters or something, the ultimate truth, which is Know thyself. But you know people have interpret Know thyself to mean know your qualities, know your limitations, know what you can do, what you cannot do. But that was not really the wisdom that was man, the wisdom which is. Not in all actually religions, is that you are the infinite, unbounded, pure being, and you are totality. You are the ocean. And you know, if you want to take Christianity, that says the kingdom of heaven is within you. And you know the Bible, humans were made in the image of God. So even the physical body is actually an expression, one layer of the expression of reality, which allows us to live in the surface value. But that is not the end of all that we are, what we are is the ocean, but we're enjoying the waves. We're enjoying one wave and the other wave. But when you forget that you are the ocean, then many problems arise. You start thinking the other wave is gonna hit you and it's gonna take away from you, and it's gonna ding, and what will happen to you when you get on the shore, you'll be smashed and and all of that. And, yeah, maybe, you know, there is a time when one wave goes but if you are the ocean, then you are all the waves really in the depths of yourself and the true inner self. And so that is, you know what the Veda says, that you are totality. You are wholeness, what the Tao says, Even when you look deeper into even Buddhism and confuci ism and Hinduism. And you know, in all of that, even in Quran, which people you know, sometimes they feel okay, maybe it is more practical in terms of daily living and all that. But it has, it is, of course, very spiritual also. And there is a verse in it which says, God is speaking, and God says, I am closer to you than your jugular vein, which is just to say that that it's all within. It's all within. So you know, when we say and when in Christianity, it is said, The kingdom of heaven is within you. It's the same thing. And so what does it mean the kingdom of heaven? It means that place which has no limitations, which has all possibilities, which is there is no limits, no sense of lacking, where there is fulfillment, when there is wholeness. And all of this is pointing to the within, within, within. So that is really what it means to go within on a practical level, because it's not just some nice experience, as we said, it just allows you to come out and be dynamic and be creative and make the best of two of your life. You know, because many people feel I don't want for myself, I'm fine. I want to help the world. I want to create world peace and all of that. But you can only give what you have. And if you have stress and strain and go out and try to give that, well that's what you give. You give fear, you give strain, you give incompleteness. So it's important to be maximum in order to give maximum.

Alex Ferrari 33:17
Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Now when you were a young doctor, and you got a chance to go see the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Can you explain to people who he was, if they don't know who he was, and what was the experience of meeting and what was the extent of your interaction with him? And I'd love to also dive into physically what you felt when you were near him. I've heard stories, so I'd love to hear that.

Dr. Tony Nader 33:45
Yeah, it's, you know, I feel like, when I retrospectively think about it, that I really met Maharishi when I practice Transcendental Meditation. So when I learned this transcendental meditation, and when the teachers teach this technique, they say they are teaching on behalf of Maharishi. And Maharishi has created all the steps and all of that, and you get to see tapes of him speaking and explaining and all of that. And so as I closed my eyes and I dive deep within, I was feeling great gratitude for the ability to get to that depth of Inner Awakening and inner experience. And so that is what kind of propelled me, or gave me incentive to actually go meet Maharishi, hopefully. And I, first time I met him. I was, you know, towards the end of my medical training, and he was in Switzerland, there was a conference on Vedic Ayurvedic health. So Ayurveda and, you know, alternative health to create balance and all that. And that was the. First time I saw him. I went to the conference, and I offered him a flower. And there were many people around and scientists and, you know, doctors discussing the different aspects of health and all that. And I just came to him and I gave him a flower. It's, it's a way, you know, a traditional way, to greet in a sweet way. And this was my first time, really, that I met him. And at that time, the feeling that I had, which you're asking me to describe, is that time stopped, as if time stopped, and everything just collapsed in the background. And all that was there is him looking at me and myself, literally, I kind of transcended everything. Everything just vanished. Time stopped, and I felt this radiance from him, this great radiance of light, of peace, of harmony, even I would say love and care and attention. I felt like this, for this moment, for him, as if the whole world also stopped, and I was the only one that was there that was so powerful and focused his attention, because he could actually be free from other considerations. You know, there was a conference, things organized people going and coming, and we usually, when we are in this situation, your mind, even though you're not thinking about it, it's just kind of bubbling in the subconscious, and as if this was not really there at all in him. It was just just pure Being, pure consciousness, pure awareness in the simplest possible way, no contrived, not a contrived state, not a forced state, not an unusual just a simple, innocent, restful wakefulness that suddenly focused on you, and I felt like this, this very great moment of joy and, and I wouldn't call it even necessarily joy, in a sense of joyfulness and all of that, but joy of peaceful, being peaceful fulfillment, where you know, as if there is nothing missing, and one is feeling a moment of great fulfillment.

Alex Ferrari 37:27
Wow. It sounds like, what I've heard as well, is it becomes almost intoxicating being in that, in that, I mean, what you just described, who doesn't want to be in that, and it's like, just be being in his vicinity, you would feel that. And a lot of people are drawn to that energy. Does that make sense?

Dr. Tony Nader 37:48
Yeah, there is that sense exactly, of holiness. You know, we don't want to necessarily use that, because people will start saying, Oh, this is like, you know, some imagination or but that's the feeling you have in an innocent, simple way. And, and I'm very critical, you know, I've been with Nobel laureates many times, top world leaders. They're all absolutely wonderful. I don't want to diminish anybody, but just to say that the quality of experience on a being, on the level of being was very special with Maharishi.

Alex Ferrari 38:24
And did you was that the only time you interacted with Maharishi, or was there other times after?

Dr. Tony Nader 38:30
No, I interacted many times with him, and I spent nearly 20 years actually working with him. Because what I did is, after I finished my my studies and my specialization, my PhD and MP and all of that, I had a good practice in Boston. I was planning to become a professor in one of those big universities. I was invited to work. I had the credentials, and since I was in contact with him, by the distance, in a sense, he invited me to come to India. He was in India that was 1989 to meet him there. And at that time, I had my private jet, my plane. It wasn't a jet, it was a propeller, because I'm a pilot. Also, I learned to fly. I had my car. I had bought a house on Beacon Hill and Boston, just next to the Mass General Hospital. I had a life, you know, and I had friends, and many personal, private, intimate friendships and all of that. And so I went just for a day or two, thinking, three days, okay, maybe I can manage a week. I asked my colleagues to take care of my patients in my absence, and I went there, and I this is where I started meeting him and discussing things more. And more. And I told him, I'm planning to hopefully become a professor. There is an offer of a professorship at Harvard, which is I was so proud of it, because I thought he would want one of people who, you know, be, who are with him, working with him, to have such position and contribute to the science, because he was always very interested in science. He wanted to do research on everything scientific research. He believed in the scientific method and the proof by comparing groups and control groups and all that. That's why we have more than 600 scientific research studies that are published in peer reviewed journals on Transcendental Meditation. So it's not just, oh, some nice idea and some nice thing. It's very scientific, and that's thanks to maharishi's encouragement. So I thought he would think it's great, and I would just do scientific research, maybe on TM, on meditation. But he kept delaying me, and I kept pushing like I have to go back, and I have my patience and all of that. So I told him, I have to go back. I have to, you know, to take care of of my profession and all this. And he's told me something very unusual, and what I would consider unexpected. Certainly, he said, This is too little for you. And I didn't understand that very much what he meant. And he said, you should, you should continue stay with me and we will work on things. It's okay. You still have time to go back if you want to later and like this. Can you arrange? I said, Yeah, I can kind of arrange so from one week, it became one month, and then from one month to two months to I thought, okay, one meal. I take sabbatical. I sent, I sent all this request to my friends to take care of my patients. I called my uncle who was living in Connecticut, I told him to sell the car, and then we have to sell the plane, because at least one year it's really sitting there. And so this one year and one, you know, months and one year became actually almost 20 years.

Alex Ferrari 42:19
Where,, where were you? You lived in India with the Maharishi?

Dr. Tony Nader 42:23
Yeah, yeah. At the beginning a little bit. And then he moved himself to the west, because he used to travel. He moved to the Netherlands. And then he called me back there from India, and I was also going actually, it was a time when Soviet block was kind of dismantling 1989 and so he had asked me to go and give lectures and the Eastern Block, because they were close to anything spiritual at that time, you know, wondering what it is, and all that. They were suspicious, in a sense, and but they were opening up, and the response was amazing. So I remember crossing the Berlin wall when there was only a hole in it, and being worried that would be shot at. But I had some Germans with me who said, no, no, I know what's going on. You can come no problem. So, you know, I lived all that. You know you probably were not born, I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 43:23
Thank you, sir for that. I appreciate it. I was born. I was already in, I think at 89 I was in high school already. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much. So it's fascinating that you basically were, you were basically recruited by the Maharishi to work with him for the next 20 years, leaving, leaving, and this is a very important lesson for people to listen to. You basically were at the top of your field when you're asked to be a professor at Harvard. It's pretty much as as prestigious as you can get in the field that you were in, it's like, wow. I mean, that's Harvard and all that kind of stuff. You had all the trappings of the of the world, of the material world. You had a car, you had you had your houses, you had a plane for God's sakes, all these things. And you were happy. You had a beautiful life that you were very happy with. But when he said that that's too small for you. When he said that, I understood completely the moment you said that, I was like, Oh yeah, I get it, because I had similar, similar paths in my world with Hollywood and and being a filmmaker and so on, where you're like, I've been told that too, like, no, no, no, that's too small for you. You need to do other things. Which doesn't make sense at the moment,

Dr. Tony Nader 44:42
Right! But, I mean, for me, it was kind of, Oh, my What is it? You know, where I'm going. So I thought, okay, I take a month, because he was kind and, you know, accommodating, that it's not, if you don't have to, you can just be there for a while and see how it goes.

Alex Ferrari 44:59
That's how they trick. You. You. That's how they trick you. So then you you continue, same here, my friend, same here. It's interesting, because I think people get so caught up with what they believe is going to make them happy, and to a certain extent, does make them happy. You were comfortable. You had a beautiful life. You were intellectually challenged, and you were, you know, curious, and it seemed like you were good, but there was always this other, bigger thing that was on your life plan that you could not see, but he could, and that's what a guru, a real guru, actually shows you is your path, and gives you the choice. He didn't force you to do anything. It gave you the choice. And I love that you said, one month turned into two months. Two months turned into a year. One year turned into two 130 and then I'm 20 years later, I'm still here. So it's fascinating how it just slowly, you just kind of fell into it and gave into it. Gave into Was there ever a moment that you're like, I'm crazy. This is insane. Why I'm giving up this amazing opportunity that people would kill for to be teaching at Harvard and do all these other things I you know, did you ever really question yourself

Dr. Tony Nader 46:14
The experience that I had and the fulfillment that I had even compared to the fulfillment that studying and getting knowledge and expertise and research and publishing and being in that wonderful academic atmosphere was also, of course, grand and fulfilling. And I command and give a huge respect to all the scientists and and the doctors who actually do that. It's a wonderful thing, and it's very much needed. What I was saying to myself is, first, that was my calling in life. I was feeling this is the things I wanted. That's why, when we started the discussion, I said I was looking to solve these mysteries and understand life. And so I wanted to be consequent with myself, to be in tune with myself, and just follow my heart and follow my mind. And then, you know, there was, I don't know if it played a big role, but there was this, as you said, my credentials, and I felt secure that I had completed those, and that if anything happens at any moment, I can fall back onto my My regular profession. And I was constantly, you know, not comparing, but being realistic about it. And the sense is, Am I growing? Am I developing? Am I learning? Am I experiencing more? Am I being more and more true to my calling and my life and discovering more in helping you know the world and understanding what can be done on a global level, whereas you know there are all these things that are happening in the world, some very positive research and discovery and all that, and some quite negative conflicts and problems and all of that. And so one of the ways I used to answer my friends or professors in that way is that, look, you are all great and you're doing amazing research, we can sacrifice one person to actually look the other side and I'm happy to be to be that person, because that's my passion. And so you're sacrificing me. You know, you gave me training, you prepared me scientifically and all of that. And but there is this option that that beyond the material research, where we do research on one molecule or other molecule, and how it helps in this disease, and what we can do for this problem. You're all doing that. What if there is something of a different dimension that can also help those people? And I am willing to be the one who would investigate that, who would look into that, who would give actually, one's life to make sure you know, and as you do research and you experience, you're constantly analyzing and thinking and getting feedback to yourself, you know, is it really Working? Because if it wasn't working, I would have left. If it wasn't fulfilling, I would have gone. I could always, you know, at least for the first 1015, years, I was still feeling that I can come back anytime. You know, it's like I have enough credentials to go back. Say, Look, guys, I learned something, but I want to go back. Yeah, exactly. But this never, never occurred to me. This never happened, because it was only waves of greater and greater achievement and fulfillment, and that's what I wanted to actually share with the world when I wrote the book, consciousness is all there is. It's just not my story. I don't talk much about my story in the book, but about my conclusions. You know, my conclusions about the world, about living, about the big questions, do we have freedom? Or is it all deterministic? How is it possible that one unbounded ocean, one being can be many at the same time. You know, how is it that manifestation happens, and why does it happen? Is materiality or physicality primary, or consciousness is primary? Is there some divine entity that creates things in a mysterious way that we will never understand or that we can actually understand it. And so having kind of resolved these big philosophical and existential questions, I shared them in a book called consciousness is all there is to make sure at least I participate in the thought process. And for all seekers who are looking for what you call the truth, at least they have an option in this book. You know, I believe in it. I believe this is how it is. But people might say, No, I have a different idea, but at least when you compare ideas, you're open to thinking and to possibilities, you are closer to reaching the reality and to reaching the truth.

Alex Ferrari 51:54
Dr Tony, I have to ask you, everything we've been speaking about is so beautiful. The I can't, I can't tell people, maybe they can feel it in this conversation, your smile, you're smiling always. You seem so happy. You seem like it's just radiating from you. And I can, and I can literally feel that lovely energy. I'm intoxicated by being in your presence, even via zoom, sir. So I just wanted I talked to a lot of people. I don't often feel this way when I'm talking to people, so I do appreciate this lovely energy that you're bringing to this conversation. One thing I wanted to ask you is, since you've been you've been around a little bit, you've seen how humanity was in the 60s, 70s, 80s and so on. It seems like there is a huge change happening in humanity's consciousness. And these conversations 30 years ago don't exist in a public forum. They exist in a, if you're lucky, a hotel, a hotel, you know, room somewhere now, hotel room, but, you know, like a conference room or something like that. You know, we're only a few seekers who really seek out this information, where, now there's millions, if not billions, of people around the world looking for this information. But the world seems to be getting faster, and it seems to be changing at such a rapid pace that people are having a problem acclimate, acclimating to that, that surface water that we're all kind of rushing towards, and it seems like there's a lot of chaos, even more so than I've ever seen in my lifetime. Lot of uncertainty, a lot of chaos, a lot of old systems being broken down, old ideas being broken down, old institutions being broken down, kind of making way for the new but with that breaking down process, it's not fun. I'd love to hear your your thoughts on where you believe humans, humanity's consciousness is going, and how we can kind of, kind of surf the waves that are very big right now and very treacherous in many different places in the world right now.

Dr. Tony Nader 54:11
Wonderful, you know, explanation. There are many points about what is the situation. How did it evolve? Why is it like this? And how can we what can we do about it? I'll start with the last part, which is, what can we do about it when we are in a storm, and when you're in a storm, what you want is to anchor your boat and you throw the anchor and put it in a place where it is secured, and then you can get some shakiness, but at least you are reassured that you are you are really anchored, and you're not gonna lose, you know, the boat and lose life as a whole. And the anchor is within ourselves. The anchor is absolutely within ourself, be it as individuals who need to face. Situations from a platform of as much strength and stability as possible, and that is why it's important to transcend That's why I teach Transcendental Meditation and our organization. And I'm not just saying that because we teach this technique, it's because of my life experience and the research that has shown that when you are clearer, when you are well rested within then you are able to make more sense out of what is happening. And even if what is happening is tumultuous, you are able to maintain as much as possible your clarity, your ability to deal with it, your ability to overcome it, and your equanimity in general, the sense of being stable within is always available to you because you are anchored within yourself. This is on the individual level. On the social level, we have shown that when people, individuals practice this program together, which means they anchor themselves, within themselves, they transcend and if they are large enough groups of people that do it, then there is a transformation. Even in society. There are 116 scientific research studies on this effect, which we call the Maharishi Effect, in honor of Maharishi, who predicted it, which shows that when a small proportion of people practice Transcendental Meditation in a community, there is reduction in crime and reduction in conflict. What happened is, as the advanced techniques of meditation were taught, we found a very, very scientific formula, which is the square root of 1% of the population. And when you do that, we have experience in the past years, like maybe 40 years or so, and we have looked at the statistics and we have found an exact correlation when the numbers have reached a critical size of those who practice this program, for example, in the United States, but also it was done other places. There has been a clear reduction in accidents of the road, conflicts, crime, hospital admissions, even infant mortality, drug problems, etc. And these are what they look like, independent parameters or factors, but they all were improved in the right direction, because there was a settling effect from this group practicing the program. So that is on the level of the solution for the individual, and also as a group for society. So if I smiling and thank you for your comment, it's because I'm full of hope that we have the knowledge that can actually make a difference now how to assess the situation as it is. You started with a very good comment, which is indeed the situation in terms of meditation, in terms of yoga, in terms of spirituality, is improving and increasing in the world. And there is no question about that. I can't tell you how much I was kind of looked at as bizarre when I was kind of leaving, you know, my my my profession, and going for researching something about the mind and about consciousness, about human development, about full potential and all of that spiritual side of our reality, spiritual, not meaning religious. It means just non material, non physical, that there is an aspect of us which is non physical, non material, and people are recognizing this now the mind meditation is common word. Everybody wants to do some kind of meditation. What happened is, with time, we have created a lot of these groups. But then during Covid, for example, they were dismantled. In my mind, in my observation, consciousness in the world, there is no question is increasing. There is a greater sense of human rights. There is, you know, relations between people. And when you look at the statistics overall, actually, it shows that the world is going in a very nice, very good direction, be it in terms of, you know, accidents, infant mortality and well being, poverty levels, etc, there are many statistics that show actually that the world is going in a very good direction. So why do we have all this chaos that happening right now? And we can explain it that, you know, when consciousness rises. Uh, it's like the light rising in a room. You have a room, and then you increase the light, and when you increase the light, you you have shadows that start moving. You know, as the light increases, the shadows move. And when you see the shadows moving, you are kind of your attention goes to the shadows. And if you don't see the light, but you are looking at the shadows, you feel that it's catastrophic, or something's happening, or it can stare scare you, depending how you interpret it. So there is no question that there is some kind of a transition period that is happening, and certain things have been shaken. But I am full of optimism in that sense. And we are actually, indeed now trying to create large groups of people who practice Transcendental Meditation and its advanced techniques together. And we have had a wonderful response in India, where many spiritual leaders have, you know, embraced marriages, teaching from the same tradition, and they are actually now creating these large groups together with us, where we are training their disciples or their students in the schools, or, you know, we are in armies. We are everywhere. And that is going to, I am sure lead to something really wonderful, something really great in the world. So I'm full of hope, and I see the future as really bright, because the knowledge is there. And when there is something that works, ultimately people will adopt it. And we know this works, and so we're confident it will be adopted, and there will be a transformation from the most profound level of reality, which is not material, which is not physical, which is actually consciousness. So the ocean of being is consciousness. This ocean appears as materiality and physicality. And I explained in the book, consciousness is all there is. I explain how this can be possible and what we can do about it.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:11
Well, Dr Tony, I have to ask you, though, and I'm going to play devil's advocate here. No pun intended, that if someone's watching, if someone's watching this conversation for the first time, and everyone, and they're saying, Well, this is great. Dr Nader, this is fantastic. It sounds wonderful, but I've got to pay my rent. My church is my church has done this to me. My health care has done this to me. I can't trust the media. Do you see what the politicians are doing in my country? All these, all these kind of real world material, I you know problems. What would you say to that person who's listening, which I'm sure if they're listening, and they've stayed to this point, they're looking for answers. They're truly looking for answers, but they're caught in the the illusion so deeply. And it's not an illusion, it's reality, but it's the perspective. They're focusing on the shadows and not on the light. What advice would you have for them?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:03:06
Again, analogies help to explain so but analogies have their limitations, of course, but the best analogy in this case, is somebody who comes to you and he tells you, look at my crop. Look at my trees. The fruits are going away. The leaves are becoming yellow. It is weak. The fruits are not as healthy. And what can I do? What can I do about it? If you're a good farmer, you just at least ask them, what question, one question, are you watering the roots of the tree or just looking at the surface value and seeing how the fruits are there? And you try to wipe the fruit, to remove the dust from it, or to spray it, or to do something to it, and you have forgotten to put water on that which is hidden under the ground. So you have forgotten that the tree takes its nutrients and its strengths from the roots. It so happened the roots are hidden. But it's not because they are hidden that they have no value to the to the contrary, all the value of nourishing your tree is from watering the root. So in the same way you see things on the outside happening, you see that you have problems that you have to solve, and you are not going back onto yourself, which is the source of your intelligence, the source of your creativity, the source of your ability to deal with things better, and that is why you're going to be limited in your perception to make a long story and complicated. You know, potentially. The story more simple, think of the day when you have slept well and you wake up fresh the big problems, they seem manageable, even the big problems, if you have not slept well, and you wake up stressed and strained and your mind is bubbling. Even the smallest problem can appear like a mountain. And so reality on the outside is not independent from our inner reality and how we perceive it. So we perceive something, and that thing is an object, but the knowledge that we have is a relax, is a combination of the object, of course, but of also how we see it, how we experience it, how we interpret it, how we deal with it, how much intelligence and creativity We have today to pay my rent, to find solutions, to take care of things, to find ways to do it on an individual level and on a social level. We We offer a program, you know, and that's why I take this opportunity to be with you and to say to all the viewers and listeners and all those who have contacts and friends, we have a solution. We have a solution. It's not costly. It's actually very, very inexpensive compared to even one fighter plane, or, you know, less than a fighter plane, much less that can make a difference. Having tried all the other solutions, you know, you know, then you if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, hoping that suddenly this thing will happen in a different way, I think that's, you know, what some people have said insane, yeah, insane, and I don't want to use big words here, but let's try something new. Let's try a paradigm that works, that explains things, that has a logic within it, that offers a new perspective, and we can make a difference and change the world. So in terms of, what do we do in this situation? Transcend as an individual, go back to yourself, settle within yourself as a society, let's create a large group that can practice this program and see the effects.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:40
It sounds like, I always tell people like during the Great Depression, there were people who built some of the greatest companies in the world. There's people that weren't even affected by the Great Depression, not only rich people, but you know, working class people who were not affected in every great disaster. There are always people who it doesn't seem to affect them in the same way as it affects everybody else. So there is hope. There is hope that we can do that correct?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:08:11
Absolutely, absolutely, I would say, actually, there is a technology. There is a science. It has, yes, it has been tried. It just needs to be applied.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:21
And this is transcendental meditation. Is what you're saying?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:08:23
Transcendental Meditation, absolutely consciousness based education, consciousness based thinking. You know, we have a university which we are not trying to revive and to promote Maharishi International University where we can teach people, and we're preparing programs to face the mental health, also crisis that is coming, that is needed, where, you know, if we just use medicines and drugs and have side effects, and then, you know, limit the potential for people, but we have technologies of mind, technology of consciousness, that can Do it that can help people get out of their problems, out of a sense of isolation or loneliness and depression and anxiety. And all of this has been researched again and again. Has been researched under different circumstances, in different settings, be it in hospitals, for example, we have worked with David Lynch and David Lynch Foundation, where we have shown that, you know, doctors who are under stress and anxiety and insomnia and even suicide, and now more than 90 hospitals in the United States, this program is offered. And the research, again, research comparing controls, etc, has shown the effectiveness of reducing the problems and enhancing the lives, life quality of all these great heroes. You know, medical profession, doctors, nurses, staff of hospitals.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:56
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my. Yes, what is your definition of living a fulfilled life?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:10:04
Living a fulfilled life is a life that allows you to grow in consciousness, grow in awareness. It's a fulfilled life is that you feel you are more. You are becoming more. And this is what is very important, to be more, rather than to have more. And people mix these things up. You can be more by having more also, but in a limited way. But if you think you are your possessions and all of that, you will find it's not working. So fulfill life, a well lived life, a life where you feel you are growing in your consciousness, and growing in your consciousness will naturally make you feel embracing bigger and bigger aspects of your life, not just yourself as an individual, maybe your family, your nation, your world, your environment, when you feel you're embracing more and more and you are doing something about it, then you are living a fulfilled life. Beautiful answer.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:06
If you had a chance to go back in time and speak to Little Tony, what advice would you give him?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:11:10
Go ahead and do exactly the same things you've done.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:15
Don't change a thing. How do you define God or Source?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:11:23
God is infinite awareness, infinite consciousness. God cannot be unconscious, obviously, and consciousness is on a range you you know in my book, consciousness is all there is. I explained that consciousness goes all the way to the atoms and the molecules and the cells is not just a simple thing that is for humans. It's there in the animals. It's there in the trees, on different different levels, different different levels. So if you can imagine a consciousness that is beyond any limitation, beyond any limiting factor that has no smallness, only big, only perfect. Then that is the consciousness of God. Now, whether this reality is personal aspect or impersonal, again, I explained in the book that it can be both, and then you can say when it is a personal its personal aspect is what we call God, if you what is love. Law is a power of connecting. Whatever connects something to another is love. You know, again, in my book, I explains that when a negative particle meets with a positive particle and they attract each other, that's a minimal, tiny aspect of law, connecting connecting the subject to the object. We see ourselves as subjects, and whether we like it or not we see the entire universe and everything in it as our object of perception. Whatever connects us more to what we see is different degrees of love when you connected so strongly with the other that you see them as yourself, then this is supreme love. Supreme love is the love of unity, where you see the other as yourself, where you see life as your own life, when you see yourself as the ocean, and you see every wave as part of you because you are the ocean, and embrace all the waves as part of yourself, then you have supreme love.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:49
Beautiful answer. If you could ask God or source one question, what would it be?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:13:55
Let thy will be done.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:59
And finally, what is the ultimate purpose of life?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:14:02
The ultimate purpose of life is the expansion of consciousness, until we find that we are the ocean of being, then we are liberated from smallness, and we see everything as ourself. Therefore there is no sense of limitation, no sense of smallness, only bigger and bigger and bigger until we are the whole universe. I am totality, I am fullness, I am wholeness, and there you have maximum fulfillment. This is the beauty of it. The purpose of life is, in that sense, the expansion of happiness. Because the more you grow, the more you expand, the less you are limited. And that's what gives happiness. So the purpose of life is just expansion of happiness, expansion of happiness until one reaches bliss consciousness. And that bliss consciousness. Is reach when you don't feel you're lacking anything, you don't need anything, you don't want anything, you're not afraid of anything. When can you reach that when you are everything, when you are everything. There is no other, and there is no other, there is no fear, and there is oneness. There is infinite love, infinite wellness and a sense of peace and harmony, and that is great fulfillment. So that's the beauty. The purpose of life is expansion. Of Happiness is fulfillment in the growth of consciousness.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:34
Dr. Nader, where can people find out more about you and the amazing work you're doing in the world?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:15:38
I have a website called drtonynader.com we have a program that teaches Transcendental Meditation. It's tm.org I invite you to read my book, Consciousness Is All There Is. It's sold on all the platforms. And look forward to seeing, you know this, where this, this podcast that we have together, and I am, of course, on YouTube, and I have many you know, discussions that have happened, and it's a joy to share knowledge with everyone.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:18
And do you have any party messages for the audience?

Dr. Tony Nader 1:16:20
Life is bliss, and its purpose is the expansion of happiness. Be well anchored within yourself, be true to yourself, expand your awareness and learn Transcendental Meditation, as simple as that, and experience that you are the ocean and don't feel limited. You can absolutely fulfill your dream and become even more than what you have ever thought you can be.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:50
Dr. Nader, your your optimism and hope is intoxicating, my friend, so I am so I'm so happy that you were on the show, and I hope everybody watching this for years to come, will feel this kind of hope and love that you've been putting out in this conversation and in the work that you do on a daily basis, my friend, so thank you so much for everything you're doing to awaken the planet. I truly, truly appreciate you. Thank you.

Dr. Tony Nader 1:17:15
Thank you, Alex, wonderful to be with you. Congratulations on what you are doing to spread hope and happiness everywhere.