Divine Encounters Episode 075 | Near-Death Experience Story
Michelle Clare was a 32-year-old mother of three, six weeks into recovering from a hard birth, when she says a routine procedure took her to a radiant beach with her beloved dog and then to Jesus at her side. Years later, she says, a fall from a ladder sent her out of her body again, to meet three beings and an angel. In this Divine Encounters episode she tells Alex Ferrari what both experiences taught her about presence, contrast and mediumship.
Key Takeaways
- Michelle says that at 32, during a procedure after a difficult birth, she found herself on a radiant beach with her dog Tahoe, who had passed a couple of years earlier.
- She describes a world where “every drop of water, every cell in every plant, every molecule of sand” glowed with light, love and its own intelligence.
- She says Jesus came to her as a friend, not as someone demanding worship, and told her he was there to help.
- In a later experience in November 2011, she says she was out of her body and given all the time she needed to choose whether to stay.
- She says she was told, “We expect more from you now,” and was given a download about her work as a medium.
- Michelle says a message from her late grandfather led her to a 911 recording that eased her young son’s guilt.
- She describes Earth as a place of contrast, where we can learn and grow through play as well as struggle.
| Guest | Michelle Clare |
| Episode | Divine Encounters 075 |
| Age at the first experience | 32, with three children including a six week old baby |
| What Michelle says happened | Her soul left her body during a medical procedure; years later she left it again after a fall from a ladder |
| Where she says she went | A radiant beach, then a timeless space of unconditional love |
| Who she met | Her dog Tahoe, Jesus, three beings (an Egyptian woman, an Asian man and a Hawaiian man) and an angel in red and gold |
| The message | “We expect more from you now.” |
| What changed | She went on to work as a medium |
Who Is Michelle Clare?
Michelle was 32 and raising three small children: a five year old, a two and a half year old, and a baby boy only six weeks old. After his birth she had a lot of complications. She says she spent about four of those six weeks in the hospital, with infections and IV antibiotics.
She was raised in a strict Catholic home. Her mother was the kind of person who said that was the only way to do things. Michelle says she had no idea what meditation was, and she could not imagine her mother ever suggesting she look for a guru. Looking back, she believes her soul chose that family and that upbringing, and decided to find its way the hard way.
A Gut Instinct the Night Before
Her doctor suggested a short procedure to clear out the uterus. He told her it was a 45 minute outpatient visit, and then she could go home. The night before, Michelle says, she had a gut instinct that she should not do it. But they were offering a quick fix, and she was ready to be home with her children. So she went in.
She had been under anesthesia before and remembers it as a blank space. Not a dream. Nothing. She counted backward for the anesthesiologist. The next thing she knew, she was lying on a gurney in the operating room, and she was no longer alone.
Tahoe and the Radiant Beach
Michelle had a beautiful white German shepherd named Tahoe, who had passed a couple of years before. She says Tahoe walked into the operating room, laid her head on the gurney, looked at her, and the two of them were gone. They simply disappeared from the room.
They were on a beach unlike any on Earth. Michelle says “every drop of water, every cell in every plant, every molecule of sand” radiated light and love and seemed to have its own intelligence. There were colors we do not have here. There was timelessness, peace and bliss. She says it is hard to put into human words because it is so much bigger than words.
Tahoe looked young, healthy and vibrant. The two communicated telepathically, and Tahoe was so happy she was there. They ran along the sand, though it felt more like clouds. After a while Michelle noticed she was not getting tired, hot or thirsty. She laughs that she hates running, and tells people that if they ever see her run, they should call 911. Yet here she was, loving every moment.
That, she says, was the lesson. There was only each step and only each breath. It was about being truly present, which she calls a huge challenge for humans pulled in a million directions.
Her Son Calls, and Jesus Comes as a Friend
While she was running, Michelle felt her baby son, back at home with her mother, calling to her. He was scared, she says, because he knew she was getting ready to leave. In that moment her soul was in more than one place at once, something she had not known souls could do. She went to him and said, “I promise I’m not going to leave you.” Then she began to pray. “It’s not my time. I need help.”
Next, she was back in the operating room, but standing, almost viewing it from above. She felt Jesus come in. He came very much as her friend, she says. “I’m here to help you. What do you need?” It was not a call to bow down. It was comforting and full of love. She watched the operating room light up. The next thing she knew, she was waking in post-op.
Her 45 minute procedure, she says, had turned into a three and a half hour emergency surgery. She says her uterus had been ruptured in two places and that they had missed her aorta by a millimeter. She leaves the doctors out of it, saying only that she thinks it was an oops. What she took from it was something else.
What the First Experience Taught Her
Michelle says she had always believed in Jesus. Now she says she had first-hand contact with him, and he was nothing like the figure who demands worship and songs at his feet for eternity. He was there to help. For her, it brought heart, mind, body and soul together in a true knowing: “we are supported and we are guided and we are loved” more than the human mind can understand.
She also came away knowing her soul could be in more than one place at a time. She jokes that she is multitasking. If this kind of idea interests you, our spirit guides entry and our angels entry offer short, plain-language introductions.
She adds a thought on timing. “The universe is always tapping us on the shoulder,” she says, and she believes she had been tapped several times and ignored it, so the nudges kept getting more extreme. After that, she became more curious. When she heard the word mediumship, she realized it described what she had been doing with her grandparents all along.
The Ladder in November 2011
Her third experience, she says, happened in November 2011, on 11/11, with a lot of ones, which she sees as one more way the universe gets our attention. Her house has 14 foot ceilings. She was about 12 feet up a ladder, putting a battery operated candle back on a high shelf. Her kids were older now: five, eight and ten. The two younger ones were home with her. She told them they would go get their sister as soon as the candle was back.
At the top, she felt the ladder start to shift. She had one second to think that this was going to hurt. Then she was ripped out of her body, not in a painful way, but fast. She turned and saw her body and the ladder suspended in the air.
Three Beings, an Angel and a Choice
She was standing with three people she had never met in this life but felt she had known forever. She remembers them vividly. One was an Egyptian woman, one was an Asian man and one was a Hawaiian man. Telepathically, they asked her what she would like to do. “Do you want to stay or do you want to go?”
She was taken aback, because it had happened so fast. And she was again in that timeless space of unconditional love. She knew her body would hit the floor in less than a second, yet she had forever to decide. She even thought it was interesting that nobody was hurrying her.
Then a different angel appeared, dressed in red and gold, brilliant and glowing. Michelle says she knew right away that this angel was there either to take her home or to make something happen so she could stay. She looked into the kitchen, saw her two younger children, and knew she had to stay.
In that instant she says she was downloaded with a great deal of information. She was told that being a stay-at-home mom was not her only purpose. “We expect more from you now.” She was to go back and do her mediumship in the way only she could. There are a million mediums, she says, but each is an individual. She was also told her marriage would probably not survive the change in her. Some of the information, she says, she still does not remember, and it returns when a sight, a sound or a word triggers it.
She calls that moment “the pivot point of my entire life happened in the moment when spirit stopped time.”
The Fall and the Slow Recovery
Michelle says she fell and hit the back of her head on the corner of her granite kitchen island. She reports a skull fracture about five and a half inches long and a brain bleed. She lost her sense of taste and smell, her equilibrium and part of her hearing. She says the doctors told her she survived by half an inch, the distance by which she missed her brain stem. She understood when she saw the angel what the angel had come for.
The next few months were about healing: hospital time, vestibular therapy and physical therapy. In this recovery period, her five year old son began to get depressed. He told anyone who would listen that he had not been needed, because his call to 911 had not gone through. They told him he had let the policeman in the door. Nothing eased his burden.
Her Grandfather and the 911 Recording
At the end of January 2012, Michelle says, her grandfather, who had passed when she was 12, came through in her first big mediumship visit since the head injury. He spoke about the accident and about her son being good with electronics. Then, before he left, he said, “Michelle, you need to get the 911 recording.”
She had not known she could. She ordered it, and a couple of weeks later she played it. She heard the dispatcher answer. She heard her son’s little broken voice ask his sister what to say, and then set the phone down. For a minute and a half, 911 tried to reach them. She heard him say he would push the panic button on the house alarm. Her daughter said to hold on, hung up and tried calling herself, and her call went through.
When her son came home from kindergarten that day, Michelle told him, “Josh, your call went through.” Help was coming. She says it was as though she lifted a 10,000 pound weight off his shoulders. In that moment, she says, she understood the gravity of mediumship on a whole other level. You can find a gentle introduction to the idea in our glossary entry on mediumship and the entry on after-death communication.
Love, Contrast and Play
People often ask Michelle whether she saw a tunnel of light. She says no. She feels she bypassed it and was simply there. As she puts it, if we use the word God, we can swap in the word love. “God is love, and love will greet us where we are.” She believes the beings and places she met were exactly what her soul needed, and that other people’s will be completely different.
Spirit has also been telling her, especially lately, that “planet Earth is all about the contrast.” In oneness, she explains, we would almost blend into each other. Here, because of contrast, she can see Alex as a man with a beard in a dark sweatshirt, and he can see her. Contrast helps us know what we want and how to grow. But she says growth does not have to be hard. “We can play in the magic of life.”
She also describes human ideas versus spirit ideas. Humans think they have to work really hard and give themselves lots of challenges. Spirit, she says, suggests you could daydream, tap into your abilities and let go of control. When we live in alignment of body, mind and spirit and say, take over, she says, doors open. Her closing words are that “no moment is ever wasted,” and that “your soul has more tools than your humanness will ever have.” To learn more about the idea she is describing, see our entry on oneness.
Michelle’s Experiences Beside Other Accounts
Meeting a pet who has crossed over, being given a choice about returning, sensing a child calling from far away, and being told there is more work to do are all themes that appear again and again in near-death accounts. Michelle also describes an angel who arrived as her moment of choice unfolded, which sets her story slightly apart. She says she bypassed the tunnel entirely and was simply present in a timeless place.
For the wider picture, read our complete guide to near-death experiences and the glossary entry for near-death experience. We share these as personal experiences, told in the person’s own words, and we make no medical claims.
A Practice for Being Present
Michelle’s beach lesson is simple enough to try at your kitchen sink. For five minutes, do one thing, and let each step or each breath be the only thing there is. When your mind wanders, bring it back without scolding. That is the whole practice.
Questions to Sit With
- Michelle says a gut instinct warned her the night before. When have you felt a nudge like that, and what did you do with it?
- She says the universe keeps tapping us on the shoulder. Where might you have been tapped lately?
- If growth can happen through play as well as struggle, what would it look like to let something in your life be lighter?
Choose one task today and do it slowly, giving it your full attention. Notice how each step feels.
Spiritual Takeaways
- Michelle says we are supported, guided and loved more than the human mind can comprehend.
- She says she learned that a soul can be in more than one place at a time.
- She describes Jesus as a friend who came to help, not to be worshipped.
- She says Earth is about contrast, and that growth can include play.
- She says no moment is ever wasted.
Please enjoy my conversation with Michelle Clare.
Guest Links: Connect With Michelle Clare
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Michelle Clare?
Michelle Clare is a medium and near-death experiencer. She was 32 and the mother of three when she says her first experience happened, and she shares both experiences on Divine Encounters with host Alex Ferrari.
What happened to Michelle Clare in her first near-death experience?
Michelle says she was in a procedure after a difficult birth when she left her body and found herself on a radiant beach with her dog Tahoe, who had passed. She says Jesus then came to her as a friend, and she woke in post-op.
How does Michelle describe Jesus?
She says Jesus came in as her friend, saying he was there to help. She says he did not ask her to bow down or sit at his feet, and that his presence was comforting and full of love.
What did Michelle experience in November 2011?
She says she fell from a ladder at home and was pulled out of her body. She describes standing with three beings who asked if she wanted to stay or go, then seeing an angel in red and gold.
Who were the three beings Michelle met?
She describes an Egyptian woman, an Asian man and a Hawaiian man. She had never met them in this life, but says they felt like family.
Why did Michelle choose to return?
She says that when she looked into the kitchen and saw her two younger children, she knew she had to stay. She says she was also told that being a stay-at-home mom was not her only purpose.
How did Michelle become a medium?
She says she was told during her experience to do mediumship in the way only she could. She also says she realized that she had been talking with her grandparents through mediumship for a long time.
What was on the 911 recording?
Michelle says her grandfather told her through a medium visit to get the recording. She heard her young son try to call, set the phone down, and then her daughter’s call go through. She says telling him this eased his guilt.
Did Michelle see a tunnel of light?
No. She says she bypassed it and was simply there, in a timeless place of unconditional love.
What does Michelle say about growth and contrast?
She says planet Earth is about contrast, which helps us know what we want and learn. She also says growth does not have to be hard, and that we can play in the magic of life.
Is a near-death experience medical evidence?
Next Level Soul shares near-death experiences as lived experiences in the person’s own words. Researchers continue to study and debate what they mean. Nothing here is medical advice or a medical claim.
Keep Exploring
- The complete guide to near-death experiences
- What mediumship means
- What after-death communication means
- Brian Hoyland on meeting Jesus and being sent back
- Sheila Gillette on a divine meeting with Jesus
- Lorna Byrne on angels telling her to go back
- Robert Marshall on dying three times
- Annette Bricca, a psychic, on her near-death experience
- Browse more free masterclasses and the Divine Encounters podcast.
Follow Along with the Transcript
Alex Ferrari 0:00
Tell me what your life was like before you died.
Michelle Clare 0:08
When I'm 32 I have three little kids. I have a five year old, two and a half, and my son, who was an infant, he was six weeks old. After I had him, I had had a lot of complications, so I was in the hospital about four out of six weeks, I had infections. I was on IV antibiotics, and the doctor said, Well, we just need to do a DNC, which is a procedure they do to clear out the uterus. You'll be fine. 45 minute outpatient procedure. We'll send you home. It'll be good. The night before, I just had this gut instinct that I should not do this. But you know what? They offered me a quick fix, and I was really ready to be home, so I went in, and I had had anesthesia prior to this for other treatments, and I remember it was just a blank space. It wasn't a dream, it was nothing. It was just a blank space. So I remember counting backwards for the anesthesiologist, and the next thing I know, I'm laying on the gurney in the operating room, and I had a beautiful white German shepherd named Tahoe who had transitioned a couple years before this. She walked in, laid her head on my Gurney, looked at me, and we were gone. We just disappeared out of this room. We were on this phenomenal, radiant beach and every drop of water, every cell in every plant, every molecule of sand. Everything radiated this light and this love and seemed to have its own intelligence. There was just colors that we don't have here. There were, again, timelessness, peace, bliss. It's really hard to put these experience in the human words, because they are so much bigger than that. So as I was with her, we were running on this beach, and I was once again looking at her. She looks young, healthy, vibrant. We're having this telepathic communication. She's so happy I'm there, and I noticed we're running on the sand, but it actually ends up feeling like clouds. It doesn't feel like beach sand, right? And I start to notice after a while, gosh, I'm not getting tired, I'm not getting hot, I'm not getting thirsty, and it felt like we had run quite a while at that moment. Well, here's a little funny side note to that. I actually personally hate running. And I tell people, if they see me running, call 911, that's like an emergency, right? That's not me just going for a dog. So here I am in my near death experience, just running on the beach, right? Loving every moment of this. But what it really was was it was being present in that moment. And one of the things I learned in this was there was only each step that I took, there was only each breath that I was taking. So it was about being truly present in the moment, which is a huge challenge for us as humans, because we have a million things pulling on our energy and our attention at all times. So as I was running with her on this beach, all of a sudden, I could feel my son, who was back at my house with my mom, calling to me, and he was scared, because he knew I was getting ready to leave. And so in that moment, my soul was able to be in more than one place at a time, which I didn't know our souls could do before that. So I actually went to him, and I remember saying to him, I promise I'm not going to leave you. I will find a way to stay. And I start praying, and I start saying, It's not my time. I need help. The next thing I know, I'm back in the operating room, but not laying on the gurney. I'm standing there. I'm almost over viewing it. I feel Jesus come in. And Jesus comes in very much as my friend, like, I'm here to help you. What do you need? Not the bow down to me. Start praying. It was like, Here I am, right? And it was so comforting and so full of love. And I see this operating room light up, and the next thing I know, I'm waking up in post op, and my 45 minute procedure turned into a three and a half hour emergency surgery because they had ruptured my uterus in two places, and they actually missed my aorta by a millimeter. Well, I think it was an oops on the doctor's part, we'll put the oops there, right. But for me, it was actually, once again, about so my soul remembering and kind of this amplification process where it was now. I had an awareness. My soul can be in more than one place at a time. I'm multitask. I found out I had always grown up believing in Jesus, but guess what? I had first hand contact with him. He was real, and he wasn't coming in asking me to bow down and pray to Him and sit his at his feet for eternity and sing to him. Right? He was there as my friend to help me. And so it really brought together a true knowing and my heart and my mind and my body my soul, that we are supported and we are guided and we are loved and we are watched out for more than our human mind can ever comprehend. I would also say the upbringing that I had, I wasn't, you know, my mom at that point in time was like, don't even go to a chiropractor. Chiropractors are bad. Well, now you see him on every corner, right? So, and everyone goes to chiropractor, pretty much, right? So I was raised in this very kind of strict Catholic, this is what we do. This is the only way to do it. I had no idea what meditation was. There was no way my mom was gonna suggest I go find a guru to help me fight. So I think my soul said I will find this. This, but I'm gonna have to do it the hard way, because I also believe I did choose that family, and I did choose that upbringing. And then the other thing I would say about that is, in hindsight, the universe is always tapping us on the shoulder right, wanting to give us a message. And so I would say I had been tapped on the shoulder probably multiple times, and for whatever reason, chose to ignore it so it kept getting my attention in a more extreme way. So I did start becoming more interested. Like I finally heard the word mediumship. Oh, this is what I've been doing with grandma and grandpa this whole time we've been talking through mediumship. So I started to find out a little bit more. So my third one happened in November of 2011 for people who like numbers, this happened on 11, 111, so there's a lot of ones in there, right? One more way the universe is trying to get our attention right. And so in my house, I have 14 foot ceilings. I was about 12 feet off the ground because I have candles that are battery operated, and every night they turn on and glow, and all of this good stuff. My kids were older now. My youngest was five, my other one was eight, and then I had a 10 year old, and so my younger two were home with me, and I said, as soon as I put this candle back up, we're gonna go get your sister. So I climb up the ladder, and as I get to the top, I feel it start to shift. All I had was one second to think this is gonna hurt, because I knew it was going down. And at that moment, I am absolutely ripped out of my body, not in a painful way, but in a fast way. And I am turned around, and I can see my body and the ladder suspended in the air, and I am standing with three people, and I had never met them in this life, but I feel like I've known them forever. They feel like family, close friends, and I actually I can remember so vividly what they looked like. One was an Egyptian woman, one was an Asian man, and one was a Hawaiian man, and they were standing there, and telepathically, they said to me, what would you like to do? Do you want to stay or do you want to go? And I was a little bit taken back, because this all had happened so fast. And once again, I'm in this timeless space and in this blissful, unconditional love. And I was looking at my body in the ladder in the air, and I realized, gosh, it's going to hit the floor in probably less than a second. But I had forever to make this decision, and so I kind of got stuck in this little loophole where I was thinking, like, isn't this interesting? They're not rushing me. I feel like they should be like, Michelle, Michelle, what do you want to do? Hurry, hurry. I had forever to decide. So as I was standing there looking at my body and the ladder suspended in the air, I saw a different angel come in, and this one was dressed in red and gold and absolutely just Gosh, brilliant and glowing. When I saw this angel, I knew immediately this angel is here to either take me home or make something happen so that I could stay so as I was in this moment, I looked in the kitchen and I saw my younger two kids were there, and as soon as I saw the kids, I said, Oh, I've got to stay and in that instant, I was just downloaded with so much information. I was told, okay, but being a stay at home Mom's not your only purpose. We expect more from you now. You need to go back. You need to do your mediumship in the way that only you can do it. There's a million mediums, but we're all individuals with that, they told me that my marriage probably wouldn't survive this change in me. I mean, there was just countless amounts of information that was downloaded and and some of it I don't remember to this day. What will happen is like something will come along and there will be a sight, a sound, a word that will trigger it. And I'll go back to that moment and say, Oh yeah, they told me that. So it's really interesting when I think about this, the pivot point of my entire life happened in the moment when spirit stopped time. That is when everything shifted for me. So clearly, I came back. I fell. I hit the back of my head on the corner of my granite island in the kitchen. So I had a five and a half inch skull fracture that went up, I had a brain bleed, lost my taste, my smell, my equilibrium, part of my hearing, and they took me to the hospital. Obviously, what they decided was I survived the fall by half an inch, because I had missed my brain stem by half an inch, which would have been the difference between life or death. And I knew when I saw that angel, that was the purpose of it. So after this, the next few months, I was really just trying to heal. I was in the hospital for a while. I was in vestibular therapy, physical therapy. I had different things I was doing. And my son, who was five at the time, started to get very depressed. And he would tell my mom, my mother in law, myself, whoever would listen, he would say, I didn't need to be there. He said, Because he my my kids called 911, they were the ones who got me help that day. And he said I didn't need to be there. My call didn't go through. So if he could have done it without me, and we felt like truly, in the trauma of the moment, he had maybe just dialed it wrong or forgot to hit, you know, the on button, I don't know. And we would say, Josh, you let the policeman in the door. You were helping. There were things you could do, but nothing that we could say would ease this burden that he was carrying. So the end of January 2012, a few months later, my grandfather, who had passed away when I was 12 years old, came in in my first really big, big mediumship visit since my head injury. And he talked to me about my accident. He talked to me about my son being good with electronics. And then, which is interesting, because he and my son lived on this earth decades apart, right? So we know our loved ones are connected to us. And then, before he left, he said to me, said, Michelle, you need to get the 911 recording. There's something on there. You should know. I didn't even know I could get the 911 recording. So I went down and I ordered it. Took a couple weeks to come in, and I got it, I played it, and I hear them say, 911 what's your emergency? And I hear my son and his little broken voice say, Sophie, what do I say? And then he laid the phone down. So for the next minute and a half, 911 is trying to get their attention. They're saying, can you hear us what's happening? And then you hear him say, I'm gonna go push the panic button on the house alarm. And my daughter says, Hold on. Let me try calling 911, she hangs up the phone, and then her call goes through, and her call gets so when he came home from kindergarten that day, I literally said to him, I said, Josh, your call went through. Help was coming as though I lifted a 10,000 pound weight off this little boy's shoulders, and in that moment, I got the gravity of mediumship on a whole other level. If this life changing message had just come through for my son that I didn't even know was available, and yet my grandpa knew it was, and I actually watched it change the course of his life and his self worth, I did something to help come back in and very emotional for me still today, because part of my mediumship that I came back to do is to help people connect with their loved ones, to connect with their own Soul, to connect with the fact that we are not living this life alone. And a lot of times that's not how it feels in the human form. And you know, people will say to me, Well, did you see the tunnel of light? Did you? And I would just say, No. I kind of felt like, I bypass that. I was always just there. I was like, oh, here I am in that space. I made it to those unconditional, timeless places. But a lot of this, what I have found, as I've done my mediumship and that kind of work, is that, you know, if you we use the word God, let's just change that to love. God is love, and love will greet us where we are, and love will always want to show us it in a way that we can understand and feel comfortable there. So for me, these were exactly what my soul needed, which are going to be completely different from other people's souls. You know, it's amazing, because what spirit really has been telling me, especially over the last few months, is planet Earth is all about the contrast, because that is where we learn and grow and explore. So even the contrast, right? When we are in that oneness, to some extent, we're almost invisible to each other, because we are all one. I am you, you are me. We are blended, right? But today, because of your beautiful contrast, I can see you. You are a man, you have a beard, you are in a dark colored sweatshirt. You know all of these things that I can see about you. You can see me today because of the contrast I created. Otherwise, if we were in this space of wetness, we'd almost blend. So the contrast doesn't always have to be a bad thing, but it makes it makes us visible to each other, and it also helps us know what we want and learn and grow. The learning and the growth that happens here is unbelievable. But listen, a lot of times people think that growth has to happen in really hard, challenging ways, but it doesn't. We can play in the magic of life. We really can. This is part of what spirit tells me we have our human ideas and we have spirit ideas, and the human ideas are not usually beneficial. We're like, Oh, if you work really hard, maybe it will pay off if we give ourselves a lot of challenges. But spirits like, well, you could work really hard, or you could over, sit over here, and daydream and manifest it and tap into your own abilities. So we have more tools available to us, then most of us know, on the human level, the minute that we stop worrying about controlling it and we actually live in alignment, which is with our spirit, our body, mind, spirit, and we say, okay, take over. I know you know what you're doing. That's when the doors open and that's when the flow happens. I think it's to know that no moment is ever wasted as everything, as you, as me, as the sun, as the flowers, as the animals. Pure Love though, I think it really is to wake into the power of your soul and remember that this is a video game, and your soul has more tools than your humanness will ever have.
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