Divine Encounters Episode 045 | Near-Death Experience Story
David Suich is an author and certified spiritual counselor who has spent years listening to more than a thousand near-death experience testimonies, after a long season of chronic pain left him questioning whether God cared about him. In this Divine Encounters episode he tells Alex Ferrari what he says the accounts have in common, how he answers the usual skeptical explanations, and what he believes they reveal about love, religion and where humanity is headed.
Key Takeaways
- David says chronic tendinitis that began in 1999 lasted about 20 years, and that he had to use a mobility scooter from 2016 to 2019 before it cleared up on its own.
- After being prayed for by many people, he reached a painful conclusion: either there is no God, or God does not care about him. A 2007 video of an atheist’s near-death experience changed his direction.
- He says he has heard well over a thousand testimonies, and that the features people describe are strikingly similar.
- David explains why he finds common skeptical explanations a poor fit, from the tunnel effect to drugs to hallucination.
- He describes the typical sequence people report: seeing their body from above, a light, love beyond words, sometimes a life review and a choice to return.
- His definition of God is the creative, benevolent source that expresses itself in all that is, and the closest word for it, he says, is love.
| Guest | David Suich |
| Episode | Divine Encounters 045 |
| His role | Author of the book God Took My Clothes, and a certified spiritual counselor |
| Testimonies heard | More than 1,000, by his count |
| What he explores | The common features of near-death experiences, and how they fit with religion |
| Own experience | He speaks as a researcher and listener, not as someone describing his own near-death experience |
| Turning point | Watching a 2007 YouTube video about an atheist who died and returned |
| The message | The new world of love is coming |
Fourteen Years of Listening, and a Season of Pain
David’s story begins not with a near-death experience of his own but with a long illness. In 1999, he says, he came down with chronic tendinitis. It started in his hands, then moved to his elbows, his jaw and his feet, and it got worse and worse. He had it for about 20 years. From 2016 to 2019 he had to use a mobility scooter, because half an hour on his feet at the grocery store meant pain.
The doctors, he says, never figured out why. In 2019 it finally started to clear up, and he does not know what caused it. He tells of a man he interviewed, someone he describes as quite psychic who had a near-death experience, who told him he was going to get his healing. David did not believe him at the time. This is his own account, shared as his experience, and not as medical advice.
A Painful Conclusion
Dozens of churches and hundreds of people had prayed for him, he says, and nothing changed. He was raised Catholic and considered himself a Christian. He came to a conclusion he describes as very painful. Either there is no God, or there is a God who does not care about him. He did not think the first was right. That left the second: that he was the badly behaved son being disowned out of embarrassment.
A 2007 YouTube Video
In 2007, David clicked on a YouTube video about an atheist who died, saw the afterlife and returned. He worked in sales and had been trained to spot a lie. He says “this guy didn’t have any of the signs.” So he kept looking, testimony after testimony. At first it was on YouTube. Then, as he talked about it, people would say they had a near-death experience too and tell him their stories.
After a while, he decided “people need to know about this,” because what they described was quite different from what his religion had taught him. So he wrote his book, God Took My Clothes, and he became a certified spiritual counselor. He now counsels people who have had near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, spiritually transformative experiences or a spiritual awakening. It has been quite a journey, he says.
Who People Say They Meet
David has heard people describe seeing all sorts of religious figures in heaven: Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Peter. He says the environment is created to make you comfortable. If you are a Buddhist, you might meet Buddha. If you like nature, you might be brought into a garden. He says people also describe the light as huge, encompassing everything, and they describe conversations with it.
He notes that people say they feel more alive and more real than anything they have felt on earth. For the wider picture of how people describe these themes, see our complete guide to near-death experiences.
Why Common Explanations Do Not Fit, in His View
David goes through the explanations skeptics offer and says why he does not find them satisfying. Scientists, he says, have suggested that when we die the cones in the eyes start to fail from the outside in, producing a tunnel with a light at the end. But people describe moving into a light that is huge and encompassing, and having conversations with it. That does not fit, he says.
Others point to hospital drugs. David says the clarity of mind people report is far greater than anything a drug produces, and “it’s not a drug trip.” People who have taken drugs tell him it is nothing like it, even something very psychedelic and otherworldly. As for hallucination, he says that does not fit either, and he points to three people, out of the more than 1,000 testimonies he has heard, who were blind from birth and could describe colors. They do their best with the words, he says, since they never learned which word goes with which color.
Then there is the effect afterward. Hallucinations, he says, do not transform lives, yet people come back more altruistic, less materialistic and focused on loving relationships. He gives examples: a man involved in organized crime who became a counselor for young people in trouble; a policeman who became a high school teacher; a billionaire who gave up his financial ties and became a certified marriage and family counselor; and the first one he ever heard, an art teacher and atheist who became a pastor in the United Church of Christ.
He shares another kind of story. Someone arrives in heaven and meets a man who says he is their brother. They come home and tell their parents, who go wide-eyed, because they had a miscarriage and never told anyone. That cannot be described as a trick of the dying brain, David says. The only way to dismiss it, in his view, is a massive coordinated conspiracy to lie, and he says even that does not fit well. We share his views as his perspective. Researchers continue to debate what these experiences mean.
An Old Text and a Dream Comparison
David also points to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which he says is over 1,500 years old. He says it describes a gleaming light shining from the heart of God, so bright you dare not look at it but cannot pull your eyes away. That, he says, is exactly what people describe today: a light thousands of times brighter than the sun, yet not harmful to the eyes, and the most beautiful thing they have ever seen.
He offers an analogy. Imagine we were all in an interactive dream, and one person woke up and came back to describe the real world. Others would say they had been hallucinating. But when you wake from a dream, it is obvious the real world is “far more solid and real.” That, he says, is what people report: taking one step up to a higher level of reality.
The Typical Sequence
There is no normal, David says, because heaven creates a unique experience for each person, and that is probably why every experience is designed differently, to have the biggest effect. Still, he describes a typical arc. A person dies at the scene of an accident or in the hospital and sees themselves from above, watching people work on them. They can hear the thoughts and feel the emotions of those people, and have 360 degree vision. They feel more alive and more real, filled with energy.
Sometimes they do not recognize their own body, since we usually see ourselves only on a screen or in a mirror. When people ask whether they were like a ghost, they answer, “I was the opposite of the ghost.” Then something behind them gets their attention, a pinpoint of light, beautiful and loving. They are drawn “like a magnet.” It would burn you up in this world, they say, but there it does not hurt to look. People do not have to be told that this light is God, David says. There is no question, because of the love, peace, joy and purposefulness, and a feeling of protection.
Sometimes there is a conversation. Some are told it is not their time. Others are given a choice to stay or go back, with the benefits of returning shown to them. Nobody wants to go back, he says, even a mother with a newborn. They describe the experience with phrases like “imagine the 100 happiest moments of your life,” all in one moment, and then multiply the strongest love you have felt by a thousand. And they always decide to come back.
Colors That Do Not Exist Here
The senses over there are different, David says. People speak of colors that do not exist on earth. When he asks which colors, they tell him they cannot say. One artist, he says, told him “I was looking at over 80 primary colors.” Hearing is amazing too, with tones everywhere, but it is used less for communication than for the music of heaven. Communication is mind to mind, he says, which makes a misunderstanding impossible.
The Life Review and Emotional Fireworks
Some people meet relatives. Some have what is called a life review, a trip through their life from beginning to end. David says it is not really a judgment, even though they are shown what they did right and wrong. They are also shown how they affected other people. In this world you are always one person, he says. In the life review you experience events at once from your perspective and from the perspective of the people around you, seeing through their eyes and feeling what they feel.
He tells of a man who had been a bully and had a very unpleasant life review. After a second near-death experience, that man, who had become a hospice worker, felt the good feelings of every elderly person he had cared for. He called it “emotional fireworks.” The purpose of life reviews, David says, is to show that one of the major lessons here is to treat others with love, kindness and compassion, especially when our ego says they do not deserve it.
Religion as a Recipe
Religions, David says, are generally inspired by a master who comes to the planet, such as Muhammad, Buddha or Jesus, and are then built around that figure and can get somewhat corrupted. But they are useful tools. He compares them to recipes. His wife is a great cook, he says, and if he does not follow the recipe, it will not be edible. Some people need the structure of organized religion to connect with God.
That is fine, he says, even when some doctrines are off. “The active ingredient in any religion is the unconditional love of God.” Many of the world’s religions preach love in its forms: brotherly love, charity, forgiveness, kindness and self control. We have so much in common, David says.
A Little Background on the Research
David is one voice among many who have tried to make sense of near-death experiences. Psychiatrist Bruce Greyson introduced a 16-item questionnaire in 1983 to give researchers a shared way of deciding what counts as one. And in a 2001 paper in The Lancet, Pim van Lommel and his colleagues followed 344 people who survived cardiac arrest and found that 62 of them, about 18 percent, reported a near-death experience. Interpretations still differ. Our glossary entry on near-death experience is a good starting point.
The New World of Love
David hears from heaven, he says, the phrase that it is a perfect plan, working itself out. Looking at the world today, that does not always seem true. But changes are happening, and in the big picture they are happening very slowly. “The new world of love is coming,” he says, and you have to look long term to see humanity’s maturation.
To him, living a good life means “a life of balance, love for yourself, love for others, love for the planet, and joy.” That, he says, is the biggest sign of spiritual maturity, and you can have it without an ounce of spiritual knowledge. Children are very joyful and know nothing about shows like this one.
He defines God as “the creative, benevolent source that expresses itself in all that is.” The closest word we have, he says, is love. It is an energy, the substance of God and of who we are, and “it’s the glue of the universe that holds everything together.” He adds that “it’s all about love.”
Questions to Sit With
- David reached a painful conclusion when prayers seemed unanswered. Have you ever concluded something about God or life that you later wanted to revisit?
- He says the life review teaches us to treat others with love, especially when our ego says they do not deserve it. Who tests you most on that?
- He describes a balanced life of love for yourself, others and the planet. Which of the three needs the most attention from you right now?
This week, do one thing for each of the three: yourself, someone else, and the planet. A walk, a call, a bag of litter. Keep it small and notice the joy.
Spiritual Takeaways
- David says the active ingredient in any religion is the unconditional love of God.
- He says the life review exists to show how our actions feel to others.
- He believes joy and balance are the biggest signs of spiritual maturity.
- He says people always decide to come back, and nobody wants to.
- He believes love is the energy and substance of God and of who we are.
Please enjoy my conversation with David Suich.
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is David Suich?
David Suich is an author and certified spiritual counselor who has listened to more than a thousand near-death experience testimonies. He wrote the book God Took My Clothes and counsels people who have had spiritually transformative experiences.
Did David Suich have a near-death experience?
In this episode he speaks as a researcher and listener rather than describing a near-death experience of his own. His interest began after a long period of chronic pain and a 2007 video about an atheist who died and returned.
What made David Suich start researching near-death experiences?
He says he clicked on a YouTube video in 2007 about an atheist who died and came back. Because he had sales training in spotting lies, he noticed that the man showed none of the signs, and he kept listening to testimonies.
What does David say people experience?
He says they commonly see their body from above, hear thoughts and feel the emotions of those around them, see a light, feel love and peace beyond words, and are sometimes given a life review or a choice to return.
Why does David reject the drug explanation?
He says the clarity of mind people report is far greater than a drug trip, and that people who have taken drugs tell him it is nothing like a near-death experience.
What does David say about people who were blind from birth?
He says three of the more than 1,000 testimonies he has heard were from people blind since birth who described colors, doing their best with words they had not connected to the colors.
How does David describe the life review?
He says it is less a judgment than an experience of your life from your own perspective and the perspective of everyone you affected, so you feel what they felt.
How does David view religion?
He compares religions to recipes that some people need to connect with God. He says the active ingredient in all of them is the unconditional love of God.
What is David’s definition of God?
He defines God as the creative, benevolent source that expresses itself in all that is, and says the closest word for it is love.
What is David’s hope for the future?
He says the new world of love is coming. In the big picture, he says, humanity is maturing very slowly, and we have to look long term to see it.
Keep Exploring
- complete guide to near-death experiences
- what a life review is
- David Suich on twenty years of near-death experience research
- a researcher on the evidence for life after death
- thirty years of near-death experience exploration
- what thousands of near-death experiences revealed
- the man who named near-death experiences
- Browse more free masterclasses and the Divine Encounters podcast.
Follow Along with the Transcript
Alex Ferrari 0:00
Tell me what your life was like before you died.
David Suich 0:08
It all started back in 1999 and I came down with chronic tendinitis. And it started in my hands, and then it moved to sort of my elbows, and I had it in my jaw, and then I got my feet, and it got worse and worse and worse. And I actually had it for about 20 years and 2019 it finally started to just clear up and go away. And I actually spent three years from 2016 to 2019 I had to use a mobility scooter, because if I was on my feet, you know, for half an hour while shopping at the grocery store, you know, I'd be in pain. And so I had this chronic pain. The doctors didn't know why. They never figured it out, actually, and I don't know what caused it to just miraculously heal. I was told, actually, by one of the guys I interviewed, who was quite psychic. He had had a near death experience. He says, Oh, you're, you're gonna get your healing. And of course, I didn't believe him, you know, so, but I had been prayed for by dozens of churches, hundreds of people, and nothing. And back then, I was a, what you would call a Christian. I was raised Catholic, and I came to a very painful conclusion. That conclusion was one of two things is going on here, either there is no God. I didn't think that was right. I was pretty sure there was God, or there is a God and he doesn't care about me. You know, I'm the son who has been badly behaved and he's, you know, I'm disowning you because I'm embarrassed with you, you know, that kind of thing. And I clicked on a YouTube video, and this was in 2007 and it was about an atheist who died, saw the afterlife and returned. And I had gotten training, because I worked in sales, and so I had gotten training and how to spot a lie, and this guy didn't have any of the signs. And I started looking into it, testimony after testimony. And I started on YouTube at first, and then I would be talking about it, and, you know, somebody would say, Well, I had a near death experience, and they tell me about their experiences. And after a while, I decided, you know, people need to know about this, because they tell a story that's quite different than when I was taught by my religion. So I wrote the book, God took my clothes, and now I'm a spiritual counselor. I'm a certified spiritual counselor, and I counsel people who have near death experiences, out of body experiences, you know, spiritually transformative experience, or a spiritual awakening, things like that. So yeah, it's been quite the journey. I have heard people describe seeing all sorts of religious figures in heaven, not Shiva, but I've heard people who saw Buddha, who saw Muhammad, who saw Jesus, Moses, Peter, the guy. Now you'll be met by, you know, they create an environment to make you feel comfortable, you know. So if you're a Buddhist, maybe you'll meet Buddha. If you like nature, they'll bring you into a garden. I've heard it explained by scientists that you know when you die, that the little cones in your eyes, that sense vision, they start to die from the outside. And so it'll look like this, you know, this tunnel with a light at the end. Well, people describe going into the light and it being huge and encompassing everything and moving closer to it. So that doesn't fit. They have conversations with this light, you know. And they describe feeling more alive and more real than they've ever felt on earth. You know. Others say, Well, you know, they were in the hospital and they had these drugs. Well, no, it's your the clarity of your mind is far greater. It's it's not a drug trip, you know? It's people who have taken drugs say, No, it's nothing like it. Even, you know, something like DMT, which is very psychedelic and sort of otherworldly, it's nothing like the near death experience. And there's other people say, Well, you know, it's a hallucination. Well, that doesn't fit what they say, either. Because, you know, you get blind. People who were blind since birth. Out of the 1000 plus testimonies. I've heard. Three of them were blind since birth, and they could describe colors. They could say, you know, these people were wearing the same color as these. Of course, they don't know what color it is, because they never learned what color goes with which word, right? So they have to just kind of do their best. And then, of course, it transforms people's lives. And hallucinations don't transform people's lives. They come back more altruistic, less materialistic. They are focused on meaningful, loving relationships. They have career changes. One man who was involved in organized crime became a counselor for young people who were delinquent and problems. Another guy who was a policeman became a high school teacher, a billionaire gave up all ties to the financial industry and became a certified marriage and family counselor. You know, it just, it transforms these people's lives completely. And of course, the first one I ever heard, the guy was an atheist and an art teacher, and he became a pastor in the United Church of Christ. So hallucinations don't do that. And then, of course, there's all sorts of other things that, you know, people will meet, somebody will arrive in heaven, and they'll meet their brother, and they'll come back home. They say, Mom and Dad, I thought I was the only child, but I met this guy in heaven who said he was my brother and that you had a miscarriage. You know, the parents eyes getting real big because they never told. Anybody about that, you know, well, that can't be described as hallucination or a trick of the dying brain. The only reasonable explanation, if you're trying to dismiss it, and it's not a very good one, is to say there's a massive coordinated conspiracy to lie about this. And even that doesn't fit very well. And then, of course, even Tibetan Book of the Dead. It says, you know, it's over 1500 years old, and it says, A gleaming light will shine from the heart of God that will be so bright that you don't dare look at it, but you can't pull your eyes away. Well, that's exactly what people describe, a light, 10,000 times bright in the sun, not at all harmful to the eyes, most beautiful feeling and thing they've ever seen in their lives. You know, people talk about the experience like it's the all. It's the everything of life is to be in that love. And they get to it, and they can't describe it human words. You know, if we were all in an interactive dream together, right? And one guy woke up and came back to the interactive dream and tried to describe the real world, you know, they said, Well, you were just hallucinating. It's like, no, it's obviously, when you wake up from a dream, it's obvious that this is the real world. It's far more solid and real. It's obvious that your dream world is not real. And that's what they say. It's like taking one step higher to a higher level of reality, consciousness. It's, it's very similar to waking up from a dream, you know, even things like, if you were to when I was a child, you know, seven years old, 50 years ago, if you said things like, you know, my higher self or my chakras are out of a lot people look at like, What are you talking about? What do you mean? You're higher you know, they did well. Now we have terminology for this stuff. Yeah, it's becoming much more widely accepted. There is no normal, because Heaven, as we mentioned earlier, creates a unique experience for the individual. And, you know, everybody has different likes, dislikes and that kind of thing, and every experience is going to affect them differently, so they want to have the biggest effect to get the change, you know, from when you go back. That's probably the reason they're all designed differently. But typically, a person will die, if it's at the scene of an accident or in the hospital. They'll see themselves from above, you know, and they'll see people working on them, they'll realize they can hear the thoughts and feel the emotions of the people, and they have 360 degree vision. There's no blind spots back here, they feel more alive and more real, just filled up with energy, kind of the height of life. A lot of them are very calm, and sometimes they don't recognize their own body. They say, you know, when you see it in 3d when you see yourself in this world, you're always seeing yourself on a TV screen. Now, you never really see yourself in 3d it's always a and some people don't recognize themselves, and some do. They realize, Oh, that's my body. I must be dead. And then at some point, you know, they may try and talk to people realize they can't hear them, and that, you know, it's not because they're like a ghost. You know, these near death experiences. People ask them, were you like a ghost? It's like, No, I was the opposite of the ghost. I was more real and more alive than ever been in my life. So they'll something behind them or off to the side will get their attention. They'll look. They'll see a little pinpoint of light. They describe this light as being beautiful, loving. They get drawn towards it like a magnet, and then they get to the light, and it's, you know, very bright. They say would burn you up if it was in this world. But in that world isn't heard at all. To look at the light, they don't have to be told that this light is God. It's like that the universe reverberates his name. You know, there's, there's no question when you're in this light, because of the love and they have a feelings of love and peace and joy, purposefulness. You know that everything that happens has a purpose, a feeling of protection. You know this being of light is going to protect me forever. Nothing can ever happen to me. And sometimes there's a conversation. Sometimes they're told it's not your time. You got to go back. Other times they say, Well, you have a choice. You can stay if you want. You're done with your work on Earth. But if you go back, you'll accomplish these things. And of course, nobody wants to go back, you know, even a mother with a newborn child, you know, will say, Oh, my child would be fine. I'm not leaving this place. I mean, that's how good it is. So people describe it as they say things like, imagine the 100 happiest moments of your life, and put them all into one moment. You don't come close to what it feels like to be there. Imagine the strongest love you've ever felt in your life multiplied by 500 or 1000 and that's about what it feels like. It is joy and bliss beyond words and human understanding. I mean, if you had a magic lamp with a genie and unlimited wishes, and you could just wish anything you wanted on this earth, you still wouldn't come close to what it'd be like to be there. So some are told, you know, you have a choice, and they're very crafty, and you know they're very intelligent up there. So people say, no, no, I'm not going back. And then, you know they'll be shown, well, these will be the benefits, or this will be, be what happens to your child or your spouse or whatever, if you don't go back, you know they're gonna they're. Ever get over it, or they're going to have these issues. But if you go back, that's not going to Well, these people always decide, no, if I heard their testimony, they decided to come back, right? So that's basically it. Now, the senses over there are, are very different. So you can see many more colors people. Many people describe the colors of heaven. They say, well, there's colors that don't exist on this earth. I said, Well, what colors? And I go, Well, I can't tell you, they don't exist here, and it took me a while, but like, one guy who was an artist said I was looking at over 80 primary colors. So the colors are amazing. Your hearing's amazing. You can hear tones all over the place, but your hearing isn't really used for communication, because there's a mind to mind communication where it's impossible to have a misunderstanding, so your hearing is more for the music of heaven, which is really beautiful. Some people will meet relatives in heaven. Some have what's called a life review. So they go through your life from beginning to end, and it's not really like a judgment thing, even though I use the terms right and wrong, but they show you what you did right and what you did wrong, and they show you how you affected other people. So in this world, you're always one person. You you're experiencing life from the perspective of you. Well, in that life review, you experience it simultaneously from your own perspective and from the people around you, as if you were them, seeing through their eyes, feeling what they're feeling, thinking what they're thinking, and they show you the effect of what of the things you said and did and how that made these other people feel and how they reacted. One guy who was kind of a big bully had a life review, and it was very unpleasant, and then he had a second near death experience, well after his second near death experience, he had been a hospice worker, and so he got to feel all the good feelings of every elderly person he cared for and was nice to and talked to and helped and and he said it was like emotional fireworks. Then the purpose of these life reviews was just show you that, you know, the one of the major things we're supposed to learn here is to to treat others with love and kindness and compassion, especially when our ego tells us they don't deserve it. Well, religions are generally inspired by a master that comes to the planet, you know, Mohammed, Buddha, Jesus, a master comes to the planet, and then they elevate this person to a status of a deity, and have a religion around it, and it gets somewhat corrupted, but they're very useful tools. Some people can cook really well. All right, my wife is a great cook. If I don't follow the recipe, it's not going to be edible. I need the structure of the recipe. Some people need, or prefer, the structure of organized religion, to connect with God. Doesn't matter if some of their philosophies aren't quite right, or they've got some doctrines that are off, that doesn't matter, because they contain, most of them contain the main active ingredient. The active ingredient in any religion is the unconditional love of God. And so many of the world's religions preach love and its manifestations, brotherly love, charity for the impoverished, forgiveness, kindness, gentleness, self control, good behavior. And we have so much in common, and everything like that has a purpose. I've heard many times the phrase from from heaven. It's a perfect plan, and it's working itself out in its perfection. Well, when you survey the world today, sure doesn't seem like that. But changes are happening, even though, from our perspective, they're happening fast. In the big picture, they're happening very, very slowly. So you have to look long term to see humanity's maturation process. The new world of love is coming. Living a good life, I am going to say that's living a life of joy and compassion, right with balance. So there's a few people that are on the side of they give too much of themselves and get burnt out. And there are probably the majority they're on the selfishness side. So a life of balance, love for yourself, love for others, love for the planet, and joy is the biggest sign of spiritual maturity, and you can have it without an ounce of spiritual knowledge. Children are very joyful, and they don't know anything about what we talk about on shows like this. I'm going to define God as the creative, benevolent source that expresses itself in all that is the ultimate purpose of life. Cannot be described in human words, but those who have experienced it, they know, and the closest word we have, of course, is love. It's all about love. The Bible talks about, which is a very good book. People asked about the Bible, and they said, Oh yeah, it was channeled. And, you know, true for the most part. And you gotta interpret the spiritual sense. The Bible mentions love over 500 times, and it says, God is love. And every human being has experienced love. Animals, even plants, experience love. It's an energy. It's a measurable quantum energy, and it's the very substance of God and the substance of who we are. And it creates all things, and it projects and onto all things. And it's the glue of the universe that holds everything together.
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