Divine Encounters Episode 124 | Near-Death Experience Story
Dr. Janice Holden is a researcher who says a 1978 book about near-death experiences captured her imagination and shaped the direction of her career. In this Divine Encounters episode she tells Alex Ferrari what she has learned from studying these accounts: how they carry universal features and cultural fingerprints, why some experiences are distressing, how lives change afterward, and a void she describes in her own words.
Key Takeaways
- Janice says she was raised in the more liberal branch of the Lutheran Church and was always drawn to phenomena that were hard to explain.
- She says reading Moody’s book in 1978 captured her imagination, especially the idea of veridical perception, where people report accurate information they could not have known.
- She describes near-death experiences as having broad features found across cultures, shaped by the culture and the person who has them.
- She says about half of people are given a choice to come back, usually because of a love connection on earth.
- She describes at least three types of distressing experiences and says resistance seems to be a factor in the most common one.
- Janice says people often become less materialistic, more concerned about others, and lose their fear of death.
- She recounts her own experience of a pregnant void, one she says was absolute peace, and which she calls God.
| Guest | Dr. Janice Holden |
| Episode | Divine Encounters 124 |
| Background | Raised in the liberal branch of the Lutheran Church; doctoral degree in counselor education |
| Her starting point | Reading Moody’s book in 1978 |
| Research focus | Near-death experiences, veridical perception, distressing experiences and after effects |
| Cultural example | A Maori woman who flew over Aotearoa to the leaping off place of souls |
| What she says about returning | About half of people are given a choice to come back |
| The message | These experiences share universal themes, take personal forms, and tend to change how people live |
A Researcher Who Was Always Curious
Alex opens with his usual question, what was your life like before. Janice answers as a researcher would. She grew up interested in phenomena that were difficult to explain, in the more liberal branch of the Lutheran Church. She was raised in religion, she says, and curiosity was never far behind.
Then in 1978 she read Moody’s book. It captured her imagination. What caught her most was the phenomenon of veridical perception. In her description, people in a near-death experience sense their consciousness functioning apart from the body, and they perceive things in the material world, or what she calls the transmaterial world, using information they could not have known by normal means. That information is then confirmed as accurate.
By the mid 1980s she was finishing a doctoral degree in counselor education and had to choose a dissertation topic. She ended up writing on something related to near-death experiences.
Why Dr. Mary Neal Convinced Her
Janice says she loves something Dr. Mary Neal says: “I’m not an imaginative person, so I could not have made this up.” She also notes that Dr. Neal is a physician, and physicians are among the most trusted professions. To hear a doctor describe the things she experienced carries weight.
She recounts details of Dr. Neal’s story. Mary learned in her experience that her son Willie was going to die before his 18th birthday, and Willie was only about five at the time. Janice says she finds a lot of what Mary experienced very convincing. It happened when Mary’s body was underwater, and Janice says they have since worked out that she was underwater for a little over 30 minutes.
Janice points out how the vivid experience included verifiable pieces, like Willie’s passing. She is sharing why a story like this lands for a researcher, not asking you to accept it. At Next Level Soul we share these accounts as experiences, in the person’s own words.
Universal Features, Cultural Forms
One of Janice’s central ideas is that near-death experiences have layers. There are broad, general features found across cultures and throughout history. Those features then show up in a way that reflects the experiencer’s culture. Beyond the cultural level there is a more surface structure level that is personal, so even within the same culture, no two people tell it identically.
Her example is movement through space. In the West, it is very common for people to describe moving rapidly through a tunnel or some kind of enclosure. She says that is much more commonly reported in Western accounts, so it is a cultural expression of a universal theme. You can read more about the common elements in our glossary entry on the near-death experience.
The Maori Woman and the Tunnel Comparisons
To show the cultural point, Janice offers an example from a Maori woman, an indigenous New Zealander. In her experience she did not go through a tunnel. She flew rapidly over Aotearoa, the indigenous name for New Zealand, to “the leaping off place of souls”, seeing the rivers and other features along the way. Rapid movement through space was still there. The tunnel was not.
And even people who do describe a tunnel, she says, do not describe the same thing. A five year old boy said, “then I went really fast through a big noodle.” That was his reference point. A trucker said, “then I zoomed through a giant tailpipe.” Someone else described going through something that had light, or was dark with light at the end. Everybody describes the tunnel differently.
It is a gentle reminder that the language belongs to the person. The experience is described through whatever images that person already holds.
The Choice to Come Back
Janice says about half of people are given a choice to come back. When they decide to return, she says, it is virtually always because of a love connection on earth, someone they still need to do something for or fulfill something for. The other half, she says, are forced to come back against their will.
That detail may be worth sitting with. In the accounts she describes, love is what brings people back to the body.
How People Change Afterward
Janice goes through the after effects. People become less materialistic and more concerned about others, and they lose their fear of death, because they now know, in her words, that consciousness will continue after the body’s demise. She describes other psychological changes too.
Then she turns to the spiritual side. People become more spiritual and usually less religious, though not always. Some develop a hunger to immerse themselves in spiritual books and movies, reading one after another. She also says people develop what some religious contexts call spiritual gifts: the ability to see the future, or to communicate with deceased entities, like a medium. She includes after death communication, precognition and telepathy.
For more background, see our glossary pages on after-death communication and precognition.
Thin Boundaries and Why They Matter
Janice does not romanticize these gifts. She says boundaries between a person and others, and the world, can weaken, leading to what she calls a thinning of the veil. Many experiencers cannot go to parties, because being in a room full of people and everything they carry can affect them. Sometimes they have to withdraw socially to build their psychic boundaries up again so they can manage social interaction.
A lot of us think it would be wonderful to see the future or know what people are thinking. Janice’s view is that we are given these boundaries for reasons that let us function in this world.
She adds a clarification about veridical perception. It can be perception of the material world, like what a surgeon was doing, or perception of the transmaterial world. She says some people have met deceased loved ones who were not yet known in the physical world to have died.
Pleasurable and Distressing Experiences
Janice prefers the words pleasurable and distressing. She says even distressing experiences usually bring about positive after effects eventually, and conversely, pleasurable ones can be very disruptive to people’s lives, at least in the short term. Pleasurable experiences are dominated by peace, joy and love. Distressing ones are dominated by terror, horror or isolation.
She says research shows at least three types of distressing experiences. The most commonly reported is not that bad in the sense that it has the same features as a pleasurable one, but the person seems to be resisting, and that creates the negativity. For example, they are moving rapidly through a tunnel but digging in their heels, and it makes it unpleasant. In some cases, she says, the person decides to relax and let it happen, and then it turns completely pleasurable. Letting go of resistance changes the experience.
The next most common type she describes is being absolutely alone: “an experience of absolute eternal isolation.” She says there is complete clarity of being alone, and it is a particular kind of hell because there is nothing and no hope of anything. The first distressing experience she ever heard directly from a person was of this type, shared in a support group. If your own experience was frightening, you are not alone, and our complete guide to near-death experiences may help you find language for it.
The Pregnant Void
Late in the conversation Janice shares a first person passage. She describes being out in space, no longer connected to her body, with a darkness nearby. She says she told her therapist, Julie, that she was suspended outside of darkness, which was fine. At some point she moved into it. As she moved deeper, she kept saying she was losing her sense of herself, and then she said she was not herself anymore.
She says it made sense experientially. She could not remember who she was and had no concept of Jan, or that identity at all. She told Julie she was “one with the darkness that is nothing slash everything.” She calls it “the pregnant void, the source of everything before it manifests into phenomena.”
It was, she says, an experience of absolute peace and very clear awareness. Nobody was there, because nothing had manifested yet. She was still a center of consciousness and also part of everything. For her, she says, that was God, all that is, the everything before it manifests into anything.
If this kind of experience interests you, our glossary entry on consciousness is a good next read.
A Sense of Purpose
Janice closes with a thought about purpose: “feeling a combination of being guided and making choices that seem to fulfill a higher purpose.” It is a quiet ending for a conversation about big questions. Guided, and still choosing.
That is a useful frame whether or not you have ever had an experience like the ones she studies.
Questions to Sit With
- Janice says the same universal experience takes personal forms, like a noodle or a tailpipe. What images from your own life would you use to describe something you cannot fully explain?
- She says resistance can make an experience unpleasant and letting go can change it. Where in your life are you digging in your heels?
- She describes a combination of being guided and making choices. Where do you feel guided right now, and what choice is yours to make?
This week, notice one moment of resistance, in traffic or a hard conversation. Take one slow breath and try to relax into it rather than push against it.
Spiritual Takeaways
- Janice describes universal themes that appear in personal and cultural forms.
- She says people often lose their fear of death after these experiences.
- She says love is what brings people back to the body in the accounts she describes.
- She suggests that resistance can make an experience harder, and that letting go can change it.
- She describes purpose as a combination of being guided and making choices.
Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Janice Holden.
Guest Links: Connect With Dr. Janice Holden
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Dr. Janice Holden?
Dr. Janice Holden is a near-death experience researcher with a doctoral degree in counselor education. She says reading Moody’s book in 1978 captured her imagination and led her to study these experiences.
What is veridical perception?
Janice describes it as perceiving things in the material or transmaterial world during an experience, using information the person could not have known by normal means, which is later confirmed as accurate.
Why does Janice mention Dr. Mary Neal?
Janice says Dr. Neal is a physician, a trusted profession, and that her account included verifiable details. She says Mary was underwater for a little over 30 minutes.
Do all near-death experiences include a tunnel?
Janice says moving through a tunnel is predominantly a Western expression of a universal theme of rapid movement through space. She gives an example of a Maori woman who flew over Aotearoa instead.
What did a five year old call the tunnel?
Janice shares that a little boy said he went really fast through a big noodle. A trucker described a giant tailpipe. She says everybody describes the tunnel differently.
Are people given a choice to come back?
Janice says about half of people are given a choice, and when they return it is virtually always because of a love connection on earth. The other half, she says, are forced to come back against their will.
How do people change after a near-death experience?
Janice says people tend to become less materialistic, more concerned about others and less afraid of death. She says they often become more spiritual and usually less religious.
Why do some experiencers avoid parties?
Janice says boundaries between themselves and others can weaken, a thinning of the veil. Being in a crowd can affect them, so they may withdraw to rebuild their psychic boundaries.
What types of distressing experiences does Janice describe?
Janice says there are at least three types. She describes one marked by resistance that can turn pleasurable when the person relaxes, and one of absolute eternal isolation.
What does Janice say about the pregnant void?
Janice describes her own experience of absolute peace and clear awareness in a darkness that was nothing and everything. She says that, for her, was God.
Is this an answer to what happens after we die?
Next Level Soul shares these conversations as experiences and research perspectives. Researchers continue to debate what they mean, and nothing here is medical advice.
Keep Exploring
- The complete guide to near-death experiences
- What a near-death experience is
- After-death communication explained
- Dr. Jeffrey Long on thousands of near-death accounts
- Dr. Raymond Moody on the man who named near-death experiences
- Greg Shushan on ancient descriptions of near-death experiences
- Dr. Scott Taylor on thirty years of exploring near-death experiences
- Jeffrey Mishlove on patterns in 1,700 near-death accounts
- MK McDaniel on seeing hell and heaven
- Browse more free masterclasses and the Divine Encounters podcast.
Follow Along with the Transcript
Alex Ferrari 0:00
Tell me, what your life was like before you died.
Dr. Janice Holden 0:08
Growing up, I was always interested in phenomena that were difficult to explain, and I grew up in the more liberal branch of the Lutheran Church. So I was raised in religion, and then in 1978 I read Moody's book, and it really captured my imagination, especially the phenomenon of veridical perception, where, when people are in this near-death experience, and they're, they've experienced their consciousness functioning apart from their body, and they perceive things in the material world or the transmaterial world that involve information that they couldn't have known from any normal means, but then is confirmed as accurate, and then in the mid 1980s I was finishing my doctoral degree in counselor education and had to do a dissertation, I ended up doing it on something related to near death experiences. Dr. Mary Neal, I love when she says, "You know, I'm not an imaginative person, so I could not have made this up. And because she's a physician, you know, physicians are among the most trusted profession, and so to hear a physician talk about the kinds of things she experienced and learning that her son Willie was going to die before his 18th birthday, and when he was only, I think, five at the time of her NDE, a lot of aspects that she experienced just very convincing, and also that her NDE occurred when her body was underwater, and they now have figured out that she was underwater for just a little over 30 minutes, so she was dead, dead. Then to have this vivid experience that had these vertical components, like Willie's passing, and so forth. What I found is the same is true of near-death experiences. There are certain features that are broad, general features that you find across cultures and throughout history, but they manifest in a way that is reflective of the culture of the experiencer, and then beyond the cultural level, there's another one more surface structure level, which is personal, and so even within the same culture, so the example I use is one of these universal features, is there's movement through space, and in the West it's very common for people at some point in their NDE to talk about moving rapidly through a tunnel or some kind of enclosure, something like that, so, and that tends to be it's not only in the West, but it's much more commonly reported in Western NDEs, so that's a cultural manifestation of movement. Now, just to take a minute to, in there's an example from a Maori woman, indigenous New Zealander, and in her NDE, she flew rapidly over Aotearoa, which is the name, the indigenous name for New Zealand, to the leaping off place of souls. So she flew over, and she talks about seeing all the rivers and things that she saw. So she didn't go through a tunnel, but she moved rapidly through space, so back to the Western NDS, moving through a tunnel is seems to be a predominantly Western cultural expression of that universal theme of rapid movement through space, but if you hear three different people talk about the tunnel, you will not hear the same thing, and so there's a little boy who is five years old, and he said, then I went really fast through a big noodle that was his reference point. A trucker said, then I went, then I zoomed through a giant tailpipe, and then another person who said, you know, I went through this thing that had light, and or it was dark, and there was light at the end, and everybody describes the tunnel differently. About half of people are given a choice to come back, and when they decide to come back, it's virtually always because of a love connection on earth that they still need to do something for that person or fulfill something, and then the other half of people either are forced to come back against their will. People become less materialistic, more concerned about others, and lose their fear of death because they now know that their consciousness is going to continue after their body's demise and another kind of psychological changes, and then the first S stands for spiritual. People become more spiritual, usually less religious, but as we just said, not always, and become often like people will say, I just, you know, read one and one thing after another, I just.
Dr. Janice Holden 4:59
Had this hunger to immerse myself in spiritual books and movies and things like that, and and also people develop what in some religious contexts are called spiritual gifts, so they develop the ability to see the future and also things that are questionable in some, in some religions, like the ability to communicate with deceased entities, you know, people like a medium, or, or after death communication, which is after death is the direct communication with the person who is for personal reasons, so that's back at the spiritual, where people develop like precognition, telepathy, a lot of ND years, after I don't know if I should say a lot, but certainly a good number after their NDE, there it's like their boundaries between themself and others and the world are have kind of weakened and thinning of the veil and a lot of indie ears can't go to parties because just being in a room with everybody with all their stuff that they get affected by and sometimes have to spend some time withdrawing socially in order to build up their, their boundaries, their psychic boundaries again, and be able to manage social interaction, so it can be, you know, a lot of us think, oh, wouldn't it be wonderful to see the future, or know what people are thinking, oh, it's, you know, we're given these boundaries, I think, for reasons that enable us to function in this world. One of the things I like to clarify about vertical perception is that it can be perception of the material world, like the, you know, this surgeon, or it can be perception of the transmaterial world. People have met deceased loved ones who were not yet known in the physical world to have died. I'm going to be using the words pleasurable and distressing, because even distressing experiences usually eventually bring about positive after effects, and conversely, pleasurable experiences can be very disruptive to people's lives and be quote unquote negative, at least in the short term, so pleasurable experiences, as you said, dominated by feelings of peace, joy, love, and, and those sorts of things, distressing experiences dominated by feelings such as terror, horror, isolation, that sort of thing, and there's been research about distressing NDEs, so I can can speak to the results of the research, and we know that there are at least three types of distressing NDEs. The most common, most commonly reported isn't that bad in the sense that it has the same features as a pleasurable NDE, but for some reason the person is seems to be resisting and that's creating negativity, like they're moving rapidly through a tunnel, but they don't want to be moving rapidly through a tunnel, they're like digging in their heels, and it's making the experience unpleasant, resistance seems to be a factor in many, many of those cases, and we also know that in some cases the person decides to just like relax and let it happen, and when it does, then it turns completely pleasurable, so when they let go of the resistance, it's, it's good, so that's what's most commonly reported. Next, most common are experiences of being absolutely alone forever, so it's an experience of absolute eternal isolation, where there is complete clarity and consciousness of being absolutely alone forever, and it is a particular kind of hell, because there's, you know, there is nothing, and no hope of anything. The first distressing NDE I ever heard from, directly from a person, was of this type, and it was in a support, a nerd, an I support group, and in one of them, I'm out in space, you know, I'm not connected to my body anymore. I'm out in space, and there's a darkness over here. And I said to my therapist, Julie, I'm suspended outside of darkness. So I was just hanging there, and that was fine. But at some point I moved into the darkness. As I moved deeper and deeper, I said to Julie repeatedly, I'm losing my sense of myself. I'm losing, and then at one point I said, I'm not me anymore. Now that doesn't really make sense, except experientially it made perfect sense. I was not me anymore. I actually tried to remember how I got here.
Dr. Janice Holden 9:59
And I could not remember who I was, and I had no concept of Jan or that identity at all, and I, and I said to Julie, I'm one with the darkness that is nothing slash everything, I was in this darkness that was the pregnant void, the source of everything before it manifests into phenomena, and it was an experience of absolute peace, very crystal clear awareness. There was nobody, nobody, because every nothing had manifested yet, so, and I was still a center of consciousness, and also I have to say, and also immediately I have to say, and part of everything, so it's not like I was just this, just me, any, it was I wasn't me, I wasn't me anymore. So that for me was God, that's all that is. It's the everything before it manifests into anything, having a sense of what my purpose is here and fulfilling it, so you know, feeling a combination of being guided and making choices that seem to fulfill a higher purpose.
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