Michael Le Flem, M.A. is a researcher, adjunct professor of history and philosophy, columnist for New Dawn Magazine and KennedysandKing.com, a scuba diver and guitarist. He grew up in South Florida, and attended the Harriet. L. Wilkes Honors College and Florida State University, where he studied Western intellectual history and U.S. foreign policy.
‘Visions of Atlantis: Reclaiming our Lost Ancient Legacy’ is his second history book after 2008’s ‘The Specter of Reason.’
Michael is a book reviewer for Publisher’s Weekly, and was a one-time research assistant for investigative journalist Whitney Webb while she was writing her best-selling two-part series, ‘One Nation Under Blackmail.’ He has also ghostwritten for authors of the History Press. He is eager to share ideas with open-minded podcasters, authors and radio personalities, and is open to invitations and collaborations on topics of interest.
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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 319
Michael Le Flem 0:00
He said, to combat the animal menace, many different cultures and leaders around the world not just in Atlantis, which for him at that time was a continent that stretched. The entire Mid Atlantic Ridge basically, was the continent at that time of Atlantis. In case he said, world leaders got together, they sent on a broadcast suggesting they have wireless communication or radio. They all met each other and flying machines. Primitive at this time, he says they were made from the hides of stretched elephants.
Alex Ferrari 0:36
I like to welcome to the show, Michael Le Flem. How are you doing Michael?
Michael Le Flem 0:50
How you doing Alex?
Alex Ferrari 0:52
I'm good, man. I'm good. Thank you so much for coming on the show, we are going to talk about one of my favorite subjects. The lost city of Atlantis which is legendary to say the least. And I've had a few people on the show talk about it from a channeling perspective, which is something I've always liked. Well, if you have a channel eight, hey, man who built the pyramids, Hey, you tell us about that kind of stuff. And it's been a fascinating those episodes have been fascinating. But your work is really interesting on Atlantis and your perspective of how you did research and how you kind of came along to where you are right now. So first question to you, man is what got you interested in Atlantis?
Michael Le Flem 1:31
You know, it's people always ask me and I wish I had a good answer. I think, you know, I'm a history professor, that's my day job. And I must have just run across it in teaching ancient history survey courses and things like this where, you know, if you have a textbook, or just a survey book, you're gonna run up against when did civilization begin? You know, and, of course, you know, I had a little bit more leeway, because I wasn't tenure track. You know, I was just that adjunct done for hire, Ma, as you see. So I could take a little bit more liberty, because I didn't have somebody from the faculty kind of watching over my shoulder. And so I would teach, for example, Graham Hancock books, you know, in my ancient history class, I would have somehow, here, no, I did. And, you know, I would call the bookstore and say, you have to order 50 copies of magicians of the gods or Fingerprints of the Gods. And I wouldn't tell them anything. I was just,
Alex Ferrari 2:33
It's like a history book, no one's gonna read it.
Michael Le Flem 2:35
Here's your reading, read chapter one. And then, you know, look at their expressions. And they'd say, you know, to my great surprise, they wouldn't actually complain, they'd be like, Oh, I've haven't heard this before. But that makes perfect sense. You know, and I kind of workshopped it with them for years, just kind of over the course of a couple of semesters. And then I really started getting into remote viewing and things like what Dean Reagan was studying at the, you know, noetix Institute, and then I started reading actual books on remote viewing from like, people like, Pat price, or I believe is like Lynn Buchanan. And, you know, I was a pretty materialist base person, myself, just kind of aware of spiritual traditions and channeling but never really aware of the extent to which, you know, people could do this accurately, and how it was used by the DIA, the CIA. And, you know, inevitably, that led me to people like Edgar Casey, or Frederick Spencer Oliver, who was a really important source, because very few people had ever talked about this kid from the 1800s, who wrote a book about my life in 11,160 BC. And so, I took all of my own training, as you know, a historian who studies the history of philosophy mainly. And, you know, partly the first quarter of the book is that it's like, this is the history of how this story has been accounted for and discussed in antiquity across different cultures, pre platonic sources, Egyptian sources, and then, of course, an unpacking of like, Plato's dialogues, but then it switches into well, here are, here's a chronology of the first time this was really ever channeled, you know, because a lot of people, when they talk about channeled sources, they just focus on say, modern sources, or Edgar Casey, who are incredibly important, but I wanted to see as a historian, like when was the first channeled account of this story? And it turned out to be really one of the most bizarre and almost impossible to explain at face value, unless it indeed was a truly Channel account. Because what Frederick Oliver said, and just a little background, he's a A 17 year old kid living in the wild west in 1882 1886, on 1886 on the frontier, the closing of their frontier in Yreka, California next to Mount Shasta. And he suddenly starts hearing this voice in his head that basically says, I'm an occult addict, my name is Philo's, I need you to tell my story of my past life in Atlantis, in the year 11,160 BC. And this kid over three years comes home, and not in a trance in waking life. But in a kind of intense focus starts automatically writing sometimes he says backwards, sometimes forwards different chapters, different pages out of order, a 400, roughly page book, that is a to me the most compelling account of Atlantis I've ever read in my life. And it's astounding because the things he's talking about in this book did not exist in 1882, or 1886. He's talking about holographic smartphones. He's talking about video surveillance technology, he's talking about craft that can go underwater in the air in the high stratosphere that are made of aluminum, and cigar shaped before flight existed. And then he has an internal physics and internal chemistry and a historical explanation of the final five centuries of Atlantean timeline that almost exactly corroborate and support what Plato said. But this was a kid who had never read any of the classics. He was uneducated, by his own admission. And by testimonies of his friends, he was just a kid who is a minor. Worked with his dad, you know, so yeah.
Alex Ferrari 6:56
So you mean there was so there wasn't a lot of copies of Plato's dialogues running around in the old wild, wild west?
Michael Le Flem 7:02
No, I don't think so. That was easy reading back then. No, no. By his own admission, he said I was a lazy student, I was a kind of a an idiot. I don't know anything about this when I'm not in this kind of clear audience trance. And he even said, I didn't even want to do this, because I lost a lot of friends. My parents thought I was going crazy. But here it is. And that book has been out. You know, also, I should add that book was finished in 1880s 1889, roughly, is when he claims he finished it. And he died young in 1899. At the around the age of 33, he actually died. And that book was never published in his own lifetime. His mother kept it in a drawer because it was just handwritten notes. And she actually didn't publish it until 1905. And then it got picked up by a kind of bigger publisher in like 1920, which is when people started reading it. So when people say, Well, he just did it to be sensational. It's like he lost friends. His parents thought he was crazy. And he never published it. And it's impossible that he could have just been copying from later channels because he was the first one to do it.
Alex Ferrari 8:23
So Edgar Cayce
Michael Le Flem 8:24
This is before Edgar Cayce, before Edgar Cayce all of these people, all of them. So I wanted to show people like, because I was a skeptic, I didn't go into this book, trying to prove the historical reality of Atlantis. I actually just did a seven year investigation, and said, If I find evidence for or against, I'm just going to lay it out. And, to my great surprise, even though I don't give any kind of conclusion or suggestion of what you should think. I'm pretty neutral. And you know, the reviews have always been very complimentary on like, I appreciate that you don't tell me what to think you just show me the evidence. But it's astounding Alex, the the level of detail in this book, a dweller on two planets. That's what the book was later titled, or he titled it that, I think in that first preface, but that's what the book is called a dweller on two planets. And it's amazing because when Cayce started channeling about Atlantis, about 40 years, 50 years really after this book was first dictated in the wild west. It's unbelievable because Cayce who had never read the book is corroborating many of the dates, facts, technology of the civilization. So for that reason, I really wanted to, you know, take a book that was just going to be kind of like a intellectual history of the discussion, and really now make it a book about how I can corroborate clairvoyant sources with archaeology, geology, myths, from different cultures and things like linguistic symbols. Ladies, I shouldn't be there and really show people not only that, there's a lot of evidence for the civilization, but that there's a lot of unexplained things that channelers have said that just cannot be written off.
Alex Ferrari 10:13
Well, let me ask you this, I'd love to hear your point of view. Because I mean, obviously, I have a lot of channels on the show. And I've been fascinated with channels for most of my life. I found Edgar Cayce and, and even some Yogi's that I've studied, talk about this kind of stuff as well. What is your from a historic of historians point of view? And I'm assuming you've become a little less material based or had to after all of this? Yeah. What's your take on channeling in the information that, like you said, can't really be ignored as much as they want to? Right? They, they can't be ignored anymore.
Michael Le Flem 10:57
Right! You know, there was a guy who read my book, who suggested a book, after I had published mine called this, I believe, it's called The Secret vaults of history by by an author named Schwartz, I believe, and in that book, there's a Polish channel from World War Two who was actually executed by the Nazis. And his name was Aussie, Vicki, I believe Stefan, Aussie Vicki, and people don't really talk about him. But in that book, it's fascinating because the author shows that some of the most renowned scientists and you know, political figures from Europe discovered this guy, and before the war would gather in his house, and like archaeologists would come, anthropologists would come and they would give him like an artifact that they knew the history of, you know, so an artifact from, say, the Bronze Age or something. And this is a guy who didn't know anything about this, he would go into a kind of semi waking trance, and he would pinpoint to the century, and the culture what this object was. And in fact, he would even tell you like, this is what I'm seeing at the time, this object existed at that time. And, you know, when you see things like that, and it was studied, it was in a controlled experiment with and done 50 times by university professors witnesses, similar with Casey, you know, I really tried to show people, it wasn't just word of mouth. These are 14,000 transcripts, still contained in the, you know, ar e library. And as I show in the book, The Harvard, Stanford Princeton all sent professors to debunk Edgar Casey's medical readings that could not do it. They couldn't do it, because they witnessed him diagnosing people, you know, with spinal injuries, or different endocrinology, endocrinology problems that he could not have known. He's not a medical doctor. And yet, when the real doctor investigated, they're like, that's exactly where the fracture in the dorsal lumbar is. And how do you know any of this they thought he was memorizing from almanacs and things like this. So it is real, I just think it's incredibly difficult to convince somebody who's stuck in like a very materialistic, Western modern paradigm, because we generally, outside of say, quantum physics is probably the closest most people can come to non material nonlocality, but it's like, to me if you can get your mind around the, you know, wave particle theory, why is it difficult to think that, you know, this is that strange? Like we we know, that's true. So shouldn't that have greater implications? If like particles have a essentially consciousness or awareness? That's, that's strange enough for you? You know, why couldn't people be accessing what Edgar Cayce he called like the superconscious mind? The oversoul, the Akashic Records, the cloud computing database of the world. Why is that so strange? You know?
Alex Ferrari 14:10
Well, it was because those particles don't have a face and don't have a religion attached to them. It will There you go. And people are just when they're so stuck to what they've been programmed to. If you take one, it's like a it's like a Jenga puzzle. You pull one thing out, yeah, it starts to shake the foundation a bit and they don't like it.
Michael Le Flem 14:30
No. And, you know, I'm really glad you said that, because I always tell people I think even in the book, I mentioned in the epilogue, you know, as we heard the yoking before the show, you know, I went to Catholic school, and even though my parents were not, you know, they didn't press they didn't care what I believe, but I on my own, just from being in that world for 16 years, almost, you know, I believed some aspects of Orthodox Christianity for a long time and then I went to call I joined to study Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam and I was like, had a nervous breakdown because my whole worldview was shattered. Then I went to graduate school and studied the history of the Enlightenment and atheism and I became a hardcore, you know, Friedrich Nietzsche book on my shoulder everywhere I went. And then I got into this, you know, gotten a few fights at bars with people. Then I got to this, and I was like, wait a minute, like, now I gotta go back, not all the way. But I have to scale back the existentialist materialist view, because now I'm being presented with evidence just like an investigator, this contradicting my materialistic worldview. And so this book, for me was really like a personal investigation that I wanted to then share with the world because it changed me. And it led to a lot of really cool new discoveries about not just channeling, but the subject of Atlantis, you know?
Alex Ferrari 16:00
So what is the most significant historical record or source that mentions Atlantis? Would it be the skid?
Michael Le Flem 16:02
Well, you know, channeled source, I would say, absolutely a dweller on two planets to me, along with the, you know, of, of Cayce's 14,000 General readings 500, roughly Ron Atlantis and those are invaluable. And thank God, you know, there was a searchable Edgar Cayce archive at the time where you could actually enter search terms, instead of, you know, literally reading through five or 14,000 transcripts. So I was able to read at all five, I was able to first of all find because they're not correlated, I was able to find all 500 Edgar Cayce readings, read them all. And then over a year almost put together like his story of all the characters and the timeline, and then kind of superimpose his idea over Fredrik Oliver's ideas, and see where they line up and then put Plato on top of that. And it was almost like a perfect alignment, which is statistically impossible, I'm going to be honest with you. But as far as historical sources, I would say, you know, Plato's is the most famous one. And, as I mentioned in the first chapter of the book, it's not the only one. It's not even the only one in ancient Greece. It's just we don't have a record full record of say, Hellenic is his book, Atlantis or Solon wrote a poem called Atlantis. That's been lost. Yeah. And also, I mean, recall that the Library of Alexandria and the Serapion were destroyed three times and looted by the Vatican. So it's like, we don't even have probably point 1% of the ancient texts, you know, but another one that's fascinating is the Egyptian the Tarun King papyrus or the Kings List and during Kings List, which itself talks about the rain of the demi gods, and the gods. And that rain, the demigods, I believe rain ends around 9800 BC, which is almost 9600 BC timeline in Plato's account, which he also got from Solon who got it from Egypt. So it's like, the Atlantean story goes back to Egypt. That's its origin point. Plato was just transmitting it to a Greek audience through Solon. And it's fascinating that an uneducated man from Hopkinsville Kentucky who had never read anything like this said, the Atlanteans went to Egypt, to the Yucatan and to the Pyrenees Mountains where the Basque Country is. And they did that around 10,500 BC, and they built the pyramids at that time, and they rebooted Atlantean culture, and it's like, well, that's kind of exactly what Plato said. So we should probably pay more a little bit more attention to these sources, you know,
Alex Ferrari 18:58
So Plato was pretty, pretty on point then, from what I from what you're saying,
Michael Le Flem 19:04
yeah. And I always tell people, you know, according to Edgar Cayce, the, he doesn't go into too much detail about the origins, like the absolute beginnings of Atlantis because in his readings, the first political event or the first should I say, like, development in this culture, which, you know, would be the first destruction, which was a result of a technological disaster misapplication. He puts that at 50,722 bc. And he says at that time, the world was being overrun by the what he calls the animal menace, which again, it's really that's the megafauna that's the saber toothed tigers, the mammoths, the, you know hast eagles that were flying around up to 1000 year years ago, there was still those eagles that could eat people, creatures in the sea. And he said, Cayce on a couch in 1932. Not being an anthropologist or an evolutionary biologist, he said, to combat the animal menace, many different cultures and leaders around the world, not just in Atlantis, which for him at that time was a continent that stretched, the entire Mid Atlantic Ridge basically, was the continent at that time of Atlantis. In case he said, world leaders got together, they sent on a broadcast. So suggesting they have wireless communication, or radio, they all met each other and flying machines. Primitive at this time, he says they were made from the hides of stretched elephants and filled with gas, and powered by a combination of in training with a crystal device and push pull from a guest. So basically like a balloon that was narrated along a pathway, which again, is an extremely strange thing to say, because Plato himself said, there were a lot of elephants on the island of Atlantis in a close read of that text. Plato says that. So that's interesting case, he said that, and they met, and they decided we're going to use a directed energy weapon, which he's not clear it was either beamed, he's just says from the stratosphere. So you must assume it was, you know, orbital, or some sort of device that maybe was like harping off the stratosphere, it's not clear because he's again, saying this in 1930 Do from his couch in a trance. So Cayce says this technology was deployed. And the plan was to send a directed energy beam into volcanic openings around the Earth, in hopes of destroying the food supply of certain megafauna populations, because they just couldn't deal with these animals over running the earth, even though they had advanced cities, and everything was just becoming inconvenient for them. And he said that precipitated the first breakup of the continent of Atlantis around 50,000 BC. And he said, at the same time, there was a magnetic pole shifts, naturally taking place that was exacerbated by this. And he said, After that point, the continent became five islands. And then there was a second disruption in 28,000 BC, what happened in the intervening 22,000 years? I don't claim to know. And after the second disruption, now, it's three islands. And so that's the story. Plato's telling, is the third final iteration of Atlantis, where it's basically three large islands centered around the Azores, from Plato's description, and from Cayce's description. And so that's why it's kind of a complicated story is because it used to be a continent, then it was five islands, then it was three. And that's why when people say, Well, you know, what, are you talking about this pyramid off the coast of Cuba has anything to do with Atlantis? And it's like, well, perhaps that's from an earlier time, you know, or what are you talking about? There's, you know, remnants of Atlantis in Egypt, you're suggesting that pyramid? You know, that's not where Plato said it was? Well, it's like, in Plato's account, it's a large island, outside of the Straits of Gibraltar, that had colonies all through the Mediterranean, and had already mapped the continent, he says, so he's referring to the Americas. So Plato was America, Plato was aware of the Americas in 360 BC.
Alex Ferrari 23:49
And then where does this Antarctica play in any of this? Because now there's
Michael Le Flem 23:54
In my research, I actually don't talk about the Antarctic connection at all because other people have already written books on that. But it's entirely possible. The only time I mentioned Antarctica in the book is how in the Piri Reyes map from 1513. Yeah, there's a map of Antarctica without the ice. And Charles Hapgood sent that map to the air force in the 60s and said, Can you explain this? And their answer, I put it in the book. They said, this is accurate to like the same degree as our survey that we did in the 20th century. But that's impossible, given the knowledge of, you know, Renaissance turkey. That's impossible that this could be done. Where did you get this Mr. Hapgood? Like, we've never seen this map before. So I don't know. I don't know. I think it's very possible because look, if this was a civilization that in Edgar Casey's description, basically lasted 40,000 years. Okay says 40,000 years over God knows how many different iterations, languages, cultures, peoples, although he says that the people that became the Iroquois tribe in North America were the original settlers of Atlantis, and its beginnings generationally, generationally. Yeah, like the original race was actually Native American in possession of this high technology. And so, you know, if you had a culture that could do these things, and that in Frederick Oliver's account became more advanced than us on a level of basically Star Wars. Right before its final destruction about 1000 years before it declined into the kind of Bronze Age chariot and sailing vessel story that played hotels, Fredrik Oliver has an addendum where he says we reached a level of technology that I mean, he's describing Star Wars, that's what he's talking about, I'm on a flying craft talking to a princess through a holographic projector. In 1886, he's saying this before the franchise was invented. And, you know, in all of his account, that high technology kind of went by the wayside for the final five to 800 years because the leadership, he said, had become as electricity, which perhaps, is his explanation of transhumanism or AI, or something. And he said that leadership basically checked out and left humanity on the final island of post side, the capital Island, they left them to their own devices, and they devolved into basically, this state that Plato would have been describing, which is chariots fighting with spears, sailing in boats, you know, because most people that have a problem with the Atlantis story, they have a problem with the high technology, like they can wrap their mind around, okay, maybe there was an island circular city on an island that fought with Greek technology. We get that that's weird. But we can wrap our minds around this in Indiana Jones, maybe maybe, right, but where's all this Star Wars stuff coming from? And most people think that's a, you know, post Star Wars franchise or post modern age, like retrospective projection onto Plato story. And that's why I dwell on two planets was such a critical source, because he explains the high technology, it's a critical source in two ways, because he's describing technology that didn't exist anywhere on Earth in 1886. That's source number one. But number two, he's describing where that went, and how and how the civilization descended by 10,000 BCE, into the civilization that was recorded by the Egyptians who inherited that story, and passed to Plato, which makes more sense, actually. So it was interesting, because it was so many different, you know, is it an island? Is it a continent? What's the timeline? And I would say, Look, just like I said, it was a global civilization. They had its center in the mid atlantic wink, I, you know, ocean, whose namesake we've still use to this day, I went to Florida Atlantic University, you know, there is no add to my logical explanation for that word. And over time, was whittled down to these five then three islands. And that's the story Plato would have been telling. So
Alex Ferrari 28:41
So according to it was Cayce, I think you said that there was this this iteration, this five iron or this continent down to five island on the three thing that we kind of, basically went from the beginnings, which is not there's not a lot of talk or any story about the origins of like, how they, where they come from,
Michael Le Flem 29:05
Well, yeah, that's a really interesting, somebody once asked Edgar Cayce, and again, it's such a shame, that there weren't trained anthropologists and historians, they were just mainly Christian housewives and their and their husbands. Were like, Hey, Mr. Cayce. When did humanity begin? Like, I mean, it's like the greatest loss to the world. Thank God. One day, somebody straight up asked him, like, hey, when we use the directed energy weapon, like what date was that? And then he gets shoots out with 50,722 which before I answer your question, to give you an example, I think why this book has, you know, really been like, successful with people on the fence about this is because I just wanted to see it's like, okay, Cayce says there was a, you know, weapon used against the megafauna and It was successful, but it blew up the continent. Is there any evidence of that of a megafaunal extinction in 50,000 BC? Well, I looked through the Journal of quaternary studies, they have an unknown megafaunal extinction at 50,000 BC roughly give or take 100 years that we can explain that they say, it shouldn't really exist because there weren't enough people to hunt these animals. So we can attribute it properly to climate change. So they admitted that both of the things he said were true, there was a climactic shift of 50,000 BCE, and there wasn't megafauna extinction. And it's like, that was unknown even to professionals in that field in 1932, let alone a guy in a trance on a couch in Virginia Beach
Alex Ferrari 30:46
Before it so before you get to that other answer, because I've studied the Vedic texts a lot, and you're in Hinduism and where that a lot of the original stories in the Bhagavad Gita in general sure, because they're the oldest quote unquote, right culture and religion in Or, sure organized situation that we have on the planet today.
Michael Le Flem 31:06
Alex Ferrari 31:08
The Bhagavad Gita is talking a lot about things that Cayce kind of talked about. Yeah, Atlantis, with flying machines, with energy, weapons, things like that. In your study, have you connected the Bhagavad Gita stories or things in the Vedic texts, or Yes, traditions into where we're at now, with
Michael Le Flem 31:28
I have I have, in fact, in the pre platonic sources in the beginning of the book, I mentioned in the Mahabharata, they mentioned a place called a Tala. And they situate it at the same latitude as the Canary Islands, you know, so it's like, and they say it was, you know, destroyed after a 10 year war. And it's sunk into the western ocean, and that predates Plato. And it's not an Egyptian source, you know? And, yeah, I mean, in the section, I think in chapter four, I talked about what you were mentioning, like the technologies and some of these texts, like vimanas, energy weapons, you know, perhaps nuclear, or some sort of extremely powerful energy source that destroyed perhaps different cities. And, yeah, it is amazing, because, like, first of all, I mean, Oppenheimer himself, oh, said this. Yeah. And again, I always tell people to think it's like, it's fine. If you want to say you're smarter than me, you know, who the hell am I? But to suggest that you know, better than Plato, and Oppenheimer and Albert Einstein, by the way, who, by the way, Albert Einstein vouched for everything, Charles have good roads. Okay, Albert Einstein used to write letters of recommendation for his Earth cross shift theory and his ancient maps. Okay, so even Einstein was on board with this. And so it's fascinating because like you said, Oppenheimer, some people suggest he even got the idea conceptually, from this ancient text, you know, and he was asked, and I haven't been able to verify this, like 100%, which drives me crazy. But I think there is very good anecdotal evidence that during a q&a after the dropping of the atomic bomb at Rochester University, allegedly, a student asked him was this the first time we've ever done this? You know, what we just saw on, you know, heard on the radio and saw pictures of in the newspapers this the first time? And he said, well, any pause he said, well, in modern times, yes. Well, that was that.
Alex Ferrari 33:49
Well, I found out in my research that, that scientists have discovered in places in India, where they said that some of these battles supposedly took place right, that they are finding radiation in the land. Yes, no explanation, meaning that there's no natural source of the radiation nor has there ever been a battle in recorded history in that area that would have radiation right but yet there's still radiation in those areas, hence, where these of quote unquote energy weapons were. Were, were shot.
Michael Le Flem 34:26
Right. And you know, I'm in Frederick Oliver's account. It's really weird because again, a 17 year old kid, working in a mine in Eureka is not reading the Bhagavad Gita, I'm guessing.
Alex Ferrari 34:38
Between in between the dialogues of Plato he just snuck in the Bhagavad Gita.
Michael Le Flem 34:43
Yeah, after he got comes out of the silver mine. He goes home and, you know,
Alex Ferrari 34:50
Curls, curls up with the Bhagavad Gita
Michael Le Flem 34:52
Curls up with Bhagavad Gita on the frontier in 1886. But he's, he says, I like in the story that he channels from 11,160 BCE the story of this man, this voice who's telling him I'm using you as a channel. One of the plot arcs is this person who's called Zailm. ZAILM is the name of the protagonist in this story, this incredible, beautiful, like, it's the Star Wars, in Star Wars story. It's crazy. I'm almost convinced Lucas and friends must have heard of this book. I'm really serious about that. Sure, I'm very serious about this, because there's too many things that don't, you can't explain. But in the story, the character is a he becomes a prince. He's a miner who strikes gold, he becomes a prince and runs up the ranks of Atlantean society. And he's actually sent to India, which he calls suern, suern, in 11,160, on a diplomatic mission in a flying machine. And, you know, he goes over there and says that they had an extremely advanced civilization. But it was different. It was more of like, they had reached a point he said, where they didn't need material, weapons of war, like the Atlanteans did. So he said, he describes a war between Atlantis and India, basically. And he says that we sent our flying ships there to attack them with weapons, and their a cult leaders could just turn the weapons against us. And he's describing guided missiles in 1886. Right, but they could turn the missiles against us and destroyed our Vale fleet, you know, as a name for it. In the Vedic texts, they talk about veilig. See, and again, it's like, where's this kid getting these things, he's not reading Sanskrit texts.
Alex Ferrari 36:53
And also that makes sense, because I mean, as a as a country, and as a culture. India has always been based much more in the spiritual, right. And in the consciousness aspect of things, which could be a reminiscence from an advanced culture, right, from 10,020 30,000 years ago in that area, which was evolved consciously, and there are types of there are stories about that as well, where they've evolved so much that they, I mean, the yogic powers, but on a massive scale, of being able to manipulate reality. Yeah, we just, we just stuff that the yogic powers do on a smaller scale. But can you imagine 20,000 years of that,
Michael Le Flem 37:36
And it's crazy, because the king of Atlantis, or Posei, the one of the three islands, which again is odd, because sciency said, that Posei for the main island, Oliver said, Posei, and then in Plato's account of Atlantis, there's a statue of Poseidon in the capital. So I think they're all talking about the island of Posei, one of three final islands. But in the story, it's interesting because the king of Posei tells Zaim Be very careful how you deal with this Indian King. Because he can kill even me with just a thought, halfway across the world. So be very careful. Like don't think that there's anything with your weaponry and your ship and all of your your, by the way, your electric rifle. So he's describing a blaster, I'm guessing. What is an electric rifle in 1886? It's like he's talking about a blaster riffle
Alex Ferrari 38:34
Electric electric is electricity. Is electricity a thing? Yeah. A little bit?
Michael Le Flem 38:38
Yes, it is. Yeah. It's like the light bulb had been invented in households like for years. No, like the year he started writing it. The first light bulb, I think from Edison patented. Yes. Right. Electricity in his house? No, definitely.
Alex Ferrari 38:51
Yeah, it's not. It's not widely known what electricity is or what it does yet that No, no, it's right around this
Michael Le Flem 38:58
And either our smartphones that can project images holographically. Yeah, either our, you know, like ships is starships, cigar shaped flying ships made of aluminum, and then descriptions of how they could transmute clay in Atlantis into aluminum, and then a three page treatise on how that worked. And it's like, where are you getting this? Probably from an actual source from the Akashic records or the cloud that actually found somebody that was, you know, able to be used as a vehicle to channel this message. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 39:37
It's Akashic records is something that the, the Vedic texts have talked about for 1000s of years.
Michael Le Flem 39:44
Well, and I always tell people like Casey never read according to any reliable source, anything in Sanskrit or anything remotely involving ancient India. He was a Sunday school teacher who had a sixth grade education and was essentially ignorant in waking life. And yet, when he was asked like how you get into source, he says from the Akashic records and then look in a Sanskrit dictionary, what does that word mean in Sanskrit Akasha? It means ether. And I always tell people, like, what are we using right now to, you know, have this, we're using the the Ethernet like, the why is it hard to think that the universe doesn't have a stronger Ethernet called Akasha, which means ether in Sanskrit, and that some people can tap into that's what Tesla said, when people said, How are you coming up with all this? He said, My mind is merely a receiver,
Alex Ferrari 40:42
And would you agree that Da Vinci was also a channel? Absolutely. I mean, the stuff that he was writing down in the 15th century.
Michael Le Flem 40:49
Absolutely. I mean, absolutely. No. Davinci all these people were probably doing the same thing. You know, just in different times. And yeah, you know, but yeah, DaVinci probably was looked at as like an alien or something like who How are you coming up with, like
Alex Ferrari 41:08
What is and they actually were was, I think it was in the it's either in the Vedic texts, I think they they took there was design for a flying machine. In the Vedic just, yeah. vimanas Yeah. And they actually built it. Based on it in. In I don't know if it was a Berkeley or MIT, somebody built the damn thing, not why that's not a life size, but a sure small version based on that. And it worked.
Michael Le Flem 41:34
Well, it's always been fascinating to me, because, you know, there, I believe it's one called the Vimana sastra, which was revealed to be not a complete hoax, but like an extremely shaky source that if it wasn't like planted as a hoax, it was definitely like somebody wrote it in probably early 1910s or 20s. And said it was ancient Sanskrit, and it was a chair, reviewed in the 60s. And somebody said, actually, this is not an authentic, but then the ones that have not been debunked, my favorite word, the ones that talk about like, like when you get into the Vimana, this is how you start the mercury engine. And it's like, what, why would there be a manual for flying machine in a temple in Sanskrit if they didn't have a need for that, like the need for the manual in a myth? If it's a myth, you know, just like when people say, well, Plato's dialogues, you know, in the Timaeus, in the 40s, the Atlantis, parts of those are myth. And I say, Okay, that's interesting, because the first thing he says, is, although this story may sound strange, Socrates, every word of it was true. And it's vouched for by Solon, the wisest of the seven sages. So he disclaims it's not a myth. And then if it were a myth, why would you need to describe like the stadium length of the canals? You know? What, why would you need that? If it's a myth? You know, like, Yeah, you don't just see the details like that. It's like he's describing a historical story. He tells you, it's a historically true story. Solon was a real person who did visit Egypt, you know? And it's like, why are we debating what Plato said, Oh, because we've written hundreds of 1000s of articles in textbooks already, that say that humanity was in a hunter gathering stage. Oh, don't get me started doing nothing with their, you know, walking on four legs in the savannas, and it's like,
Alex Ferrari 43:49
Yeah. And also, and also and also constructing Gobekli Teppe.
Michael Le Flem 43:53
Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Exact, gathering, moving megalithic objects, no big deal.
Alex Ferrari 43:59
Carving things in with astronomical accuracy. Sure, that makes all the sense in the world, like he come on. Like, you know, and I think now, though, I think with conversations like this, that are hitting the ether, they people are starting to just wake up and go, Wait a minute, this doesn't make any sense anymore, even though you've been feeding us this for for so many years, right? We're starting to think for ourselves here and just go look, the evidence doesn't. It just doesn't make sense. That's where people like Graham Hancock, are such, you know, is such a blessing because at least he might not be right. But he's asking the questions as an investment. That's,
Michael Le Flem 44:35
That's all I do in the book. You know, and I think that's why it has been so successful is I always love that Hancock and the people that came, you know, before me in this field, the best ones never told you what to think. They just said, Look, this is what we found. How is there a map from 1513 that we found in a dusty palace in Istanbul that has a map of of Antarctica before it was ever discovered just alone. How do you explain that on its surface? You know, how do you explain like you said, Gobekli Tepic, you know, which isn't a myth. It's a archaeological site that we know was at least, you know, around 10,000 BCE. It's like, how do you describe that in the current paradigm of Hunter gathering, but as I spend, like a whole chapter on this exact problem, and I bring up Gobekli Tepe, because that really bothered me as a historian like, why aren't we updating textbooks? Why isn't there a ancient history? You know, like Prelude, like I used to teach, you know, for the first month, I would just teach these types of things like, what do you think about this? What do you think about, you know, evidence of a comet strike from James Kenneth's research? Well, you think about that, that's not channeled? When you think about this? What do you think about the CIA and the DIA using channelers? And then documenting their accuracy? You know, and then sending the FBI but yes, exactly sending the FBI to I believe, Ingo swans house when he discovered a secret program that he wasn't supposed to know about, you know, so it's like, the government knows this is real. It's just very difficult to replicate. You know, only a handful of people can do it. Well, just like a handful of channels had the opportunity in time to not be influenced by say Star Wars or the works of, you know, Graham Hancock, because again, I wanted to show people you can't just say this kid watched Star Wars, there was no Star Wars in 1886.
Alex Ferrari 46:45
No television, that was the movies. The the first the first talkies Enough talk, he's the first silent films weren't even there, just barely getting off the ground.
Michael Le Flem 46:57
I really focused on that book, because I was like, I remember when I read it, I thought, Okay, this is probably from like, the 50s or something. I don't know. Right, right. And I looked at the Preface. I'm like, wait, what? Like, what because the copy I had was published in 1947, or something. And I was like, whoa, wait, when was this written? 1886 Okay, this, I'm gonna have to spend time on this one. You know?
Alex Ferrari 47:22
Alright, so we were the one question asked you before, what's the origin? When did this start? How did Atlantis start? Yeah, like the original? Were they hunter gatherers? Did they you know, evolve from monkeys?
Michael Le Flem 47:34
Well, you know, Cayce, actually, somebody asked him straight up one time. Did we come from monkeys? And he said, incorrect. That's all he said. He said, No, we did not. So he rejected Darwin evolution,
Alex Ferrari 47:49
A lot of, but there's a lot of posters and textbooks already written on that. So we can't go back.
Michael Le Flem 47:53
Right. And you know, Cayce does talk about the like, first, what he calls like, entanglement of the thought forms in material universe, like are in the material of the earth plane, if you will, not in the universe. And he actually puts that at 10 and a half million years. And he says, basically, at this time, the atmosphere was different. And people weren't really like we would think of them now. But over those millions of years, he said by around 200,000 BCE, which, again, is what the anthropological record today suggests that Homo sapiens emerged, kind of like they are today. But he said that he doesn't really talk about the 200,000 to 100,000. Like what was going on, then? We don't know. But we know that around 100,000 BCE. Casey does talk about like the early inklings of kind of circular homes being built on the continent of Atlantis. He does talk about that. And it's not like Hunter gathering, but it's not the high technology of the Frederick Oliver timeline, 90,000 years in the future, which, again, these are difficult times for me to think about that as a historian because I mean, think about how much Alex has happened in the last 500 years.
Alex Ferrari 49:19
The last 100 What are you talking about? Just the last 100? Yeah, and go from where this kid wrote the book, to where we are now.
Michael Le Flem 49:26
So what is life gonna be like in the year 92,023?
Alex Ferrari 49:31
I mean, at that, I mean, at that point, we become energy.
Michael Le Flem 49:35
I mean, like, like, like they did
Alex Ferrari 49:39
Well, that's what that's what something that the Elon Musk said was really interesting. He's like, do you think we're in a simulation? He goes right now, it's inconceivable for us to think that, but we've only had this technology for 100 years. Let's start 2000 years, 5000 years from now, if we just continue to grow our technology in the same pace that we are now imagine 1000 years we will Within 500 years, be able to create a simulation that you will not be able to tell between reality and a simulation. It's just
Michael Le Flem 50:09
Right with logic, right! And it leads you to wonder, has that already happened? And are we in it? Yeah. Or is just the fabric of reality? As Plato suggested, I mean, Plato, basically, to me already proposed simulation theory with the allegory of the cave. Of course, of course, it would argue I mean, I mean, that's the basis of the movie The Matrix, but I think it really people think that I think that allegory just applied to like, the earth plane, but perhaps I mean, in an age that didn't have computers, Plato really was talking the best he could about what you just said, like, No, it's not just like, in civilization, there's certain people that can't see the, the goodness or the truth. It's like, no, maybe all of this, the entire fabric of reality itself is like Maya, or something like that from the Eastern tradition. So I think it's interesting. And you know, the sources, they get more specific, because I always tell people, Casey didn't just give these readings for fun. He was a Christian man who gave people past life readings to advance in their own personal development. And so for some reason, most of his readings focused on the final 1000 years of Atlantis. Okay, and the downfall. And a lot of his clients he claimed, had lived specifically at that time. And he even said that many politicians, because he died during the end of World War Two, he died in 1945. He said, a lot of the people in this current struggle have come back from that time. Interesting. People like this.
Alex Ferrari 51:51
And people were people have said to the like, well is out if you want to start getting into the past life situation where many past life of Atlanteans have come to this time. And that's one of the reasons why our technology has grown. Absolutely. Just because it makes no sense. We know where the dark ages 500 years ago, right? You know, and like, you know, there was just Rome hung out for about 1000 years. And they did make some some jumps, man, but sure, nothing like we've had in the last 100 years, nothing in history. Egyptians hung out for 1000s of years. nothing even remotely close. What we've been able to do the last 100 So it's why now why is it happening now?
Michael Le Flem 52:35
Well, it's interesting, because in 1886, Frederick Oliver is talking about that, because he he's at least in non trance life aware of like, the technologies developing in 1886. I mean, the way his world had changed a lot. And he would have been aware of the dynamo and things like this, probably. But during his channeling, which is not his voice speaking, it's just him writing. The person channeling through him says, America is the new Atlantis. And that many of you have come back now and that it's your duty to not basically destroy yourselves like you did then But America is the new Atlantis. It's not literally where it was, which I should be very clear about. But the people the culture is the same. And he's like, You will face the same challenges. But you will reach the same technological level that poolside reached in my time 11,000 years ago. And I think I look around look at Elon, look at Tesla in the 20th century. Look at Nikola Tesla. Look at all these people that are doing things that even when we were growing up would have seen fantastical like a rocket landing. Are you kidding me? Oh, yeah. Like, I remember I saw that the first time I was like, What is this? I thought it was a joke. I thought my friend had sent me a meme. I'm like, What is this doesn't even look real.
Alex Ferrari 54:01
It actually looks cartoony. When it comes with a little it looks like a little legs that come and I like that doesn't make sense.
Michael Le Flem 54:08
No, but there it is. Yeah, there it is. And so I was like, wow, give like you said, give that another 100 years. What would it we're gonna be where are we going to be?
Alex Ferrari 54:20
It's it's remarkable. Now ours? Is there any archaeological evidence anywhere that supports anything dealing with Atlantis or an ancient civilization, or specifically Atlantis?
Michael Le Flem 54:34
That's a great question. And, you know, that's a chapter of the book where I mean, I would argue that the great pyramid itself, I would agree actually with what Cayce said. Cayce said that was built from 10,490 to 10,390 BC. That's the exact date Cayce gives. And it's interesting because again, I'm not sure Cayce was first on the, you know, Egypt Didn't mythology turned Papyrus? And somebody asked him, well who built it? And he said, well, there were there was an advisor. And then there was the architect. He said, There was a man named Ra. And then there was another man named Hermes who built it. And of course, Hermes is Toth. And it's like, that's what the Egyptians anecdotally say. That Toth built the damn pyramid in the time after the brain of the demigods, and it's like, okay, and he ruled the land to the west. You know, and, as Robert Beauval discovered, those three pyramids are aligned to the constellation Orion not today. But around the year 10,450. And it's like, he didn't discover that in 1932. He discovered that in 1980, so how did a man again, Sunday school teachers sitting on a couch, know that tough built the pyramids in 10,390 BCE? They were complete? How did he know that? I think because he is channeling some lived reality. So I would say the Great Pyramid is a standing megalithic example of Atlantean architecture.
Alex Ferrari 56:14
How about so mesoamerica did it? When did that happen?
Michael Le Flem 56:18
Yeah, that's interesting, because Cayce says that after the second destruction in 28,000 BC, when they overtoun, the Firestone crystal and blew up all the substations, so again, another misuse of technology. He says that they started migrations after the second one to the Yucatan. And he said those people eventually became the Maya.
Alex Ferrari 56:43
Well, the Aztecs or the Maya, and then there was of course in Peru for the ingka, the ingka,, yeah, the ingka, and the Ol and the Olmecs.
Michael Le Flem 56:53
And the Olmecs Elmax. Right. And, you know, in case he even talks about this, I quote this very long, like three page transcript just verbatim in the book where somebody asked him, so somebody had the sense to say, we need to get him in a room and ask him very detailed questions, specifically about Atlantis. So they told him in waking life, hey, we're going to do like an intense only Atlantis in Mesoamerica session. And thank God that was saved because it's incredible, because he describes how going back even 25,000 BC, that region, you know, where I live now, but particularly towards the Yucatan, had always been a mixture. He's like, it was a mixture of people from memoria. It was a mixture of people from Africa was a mixture of people from what he calls like the Norwegian lands, it was a mixture of people from Palestine, it was, you know, whatever that was then. And he says, it was always a mixture. And he says, that's why you're gonna find things that look like, you know, Hebrew, like a Star of David, you know, at the temple of whoosh, Moll, pre Columbian, you're gonna see things that look Egyptian, you're gonna see things that look, you know, like, they found evidence that there's a connection between pottery in Japan, and China and Mesoamerica. And it's like, well, how the hell did they do that? You know, well, it would have been easier if a they had this technology, or there was a giant landmass, you know, five, six times the size of Australia, where you could sail, you know, because I want to make it clear that not it was basically the same world we live in today. Like, we have rockets that can land, then we have people in the Amazon and canoes and sun like everybody has access to the highest technology. And Cayce and Oliver said that, you know, because when he's flying to India, on his cigar shaped veil, he's like, we're passing over like an island with barbaric people. We're passing over a jungle where the people are looking at us, like we're aliens, you know, and he's like, we're just Atlanteans we are the pride of technology in the ancient world, you know, and then when he gets to India, the cultures advanced, but different. He's like, it looks simple, but he's like, these people could kill you with a thought. And they don't need farms, because they could just manifest food. You know? So, it was like, concurrent, high, like, one went mental one, one material. Right? Right. You know, so it which makes
Alex Ferrari 59:27
But right now, right now, the West is still material exam and the East this still more mental, more spiritual, more inward bound, right. And then, but there has been a cross pollination between the two. We're now back then. Yeah, India has now become it's becoming more material. It's technology and it's growing as a as a as a continent. But when like Yogananda came over in the early 1900s, and started talking about yoga and meditation and ascended masters and stuff like that people were like what that was. But that was the seeds that spawned to where we are today. So there and there's many others as well that did that. So it and that's another thing because a lot of people think that when you hear the story of Atlantis, it's just like, the entire world was Atlantis, No you'd like you said, there are multiple cultures at various stages of development and evolution throughout the world, just like it is today.
Michael Le Flem 1:00:25
I mean, it's astounding, because it must have seemed like a strange story to people living in the 30s. You know, and maybe that's, well, it's HG Wells, it's HG Wells, you know, but today, I think it's like, finally time. And maybe that's just why the book, you know, took form in my mind after seeing that, you know, flying the little rocket landing or something, I was like, Okay, people can stomach some of these technological discoveries. You know,
Alex Ferrari 1:00:55
But let me ask you the Why do you believe that people have such a difficult time? They look, they have no problem. Believing that there was a man, who is the Son of God, who came on walked on water did sufficient water to turn in water into one, and that all these other things are believed that there was a prince that found enlightenment underneath of of a, of a tree, right? And I have no problem except that made billions except both of those stories. Without will fight to the death, right? To defend those stories. But yet any of these other stories are hard to stomach. Why do you believe that?
Michael Le Flem 1:01:34
Well, let me first say that Edgar Cayce, he would say, and he did say in a transcript, that those were the same people that the soul that became Jesus was actually like 35 different people, including the Buddha, who just come back in different places to help people, but it's the same person. But that's a great question, because I've actually asked people that, like, it doesn't require any kind of leap of faith to believe anything in my book. All it requires is that you suspend the artificial timeline, not based on really any evidence except lack of artifacts, which again, would not exist, because this is 12,000 years ago. So anything made of aluminum is not going to last 12,000 years, or you're going to find is megalithic architecture, you know, and I always tell people like when people say the pyramid, Great Pyramid, you know, was built in dynastic Egypt by Khufu. It's like that itself is a fantasy. It's based on nothing. So you stone, a cartouche that horrible that Harold vise probably wrote himself. You know,
Alex Ferrari 1:02:50
There is not one higher glyph in all of Egypt, that 10s of 1000s of hieroglyphs have been found in Egypt, not one has them building a pyramid? No, or showing how it was constructed? You would think something that big? Because they talked about everything that right those
Michael Le Flem 1:03:09
They forgot that they Yeah, they put the
Alex Ferrari 1:03:12
The propaganda stuff that they did back in the day, they talked about everything, everything, except for this big giant megalithic structure, the largest thing ever created on the planet.
Michael Le Flem 1:03:26
Yes. They forgot that one.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:27
They never mentioned it once. No. I mean, you started looking at that kind of evidence, you start going with it. It just doesn't line up, man. It just No, doesn't line up. And I want to kind of dig into something you said there because that's another argument a lot of people have for Atlantis or even any advance, like what Graham Hancock says, any advanced civilizations. Oh, in past is that well, what are we find the Reagan? Or why don't we find some ship or some artifact? Sure, because if today, all humanity left the planet, and 10,000 years, there would be no signs
Michael Le Flem 1:04:03
Nothing of us particularly, the only thing that will do this probably would be like the Hoover Dam, which was megalithic ly constructed, maybe Rabee.
Alex Ferrari 1:04:13
And they would be arguing and they would be arguing what was for? Because they wouldn't know because they wouldn't know. And maybe there are some other stone or submit maybe and that could be big made
Michael Le Flem 1:04:23
And we don't even have we don't even have I know this from an architect friend of mine who says the cement the Romans used. If you can find like that formula. He's like it's stronger than my cement that I use to build modern buildings. He's like, it's true. Yeah, he's like, I can't even make a building because I asked him I was watching him pour cement the other day on a construction site and I was like, how long does that last? He's like, maybe 100 years before you got to do another foundation or a retouch or something like that. I'm like, That's it, you know on a
Alex Ferrari 1:04:53
How's the Colosseum still standing?
Michael Le Flem 1:04:55
Yeah. And he's like, Well, because they had a much better cement that we don't even really, they mixed it with some other type of sand. And he's like, I really don't even know. But he's like when I used to visit Italy as an architect, my friend, he's like, I used to look at this building and be like, God, like, this is better than our construction techniques today. You know, and that was ancient Rome, you know, so it's like, I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, Edgar Cayce sun. I include a great quote from him, because he even says this with a tinge of like, annoyance, probably from at being asked, like, we're dead says this and, and he's like, look, let's say a tidal wave and a cataclysm swept across the United States right now. He goes in in the year 10,060, a research team comes around, drills a four inch hole at the bottom of the ocean, he goes, they're gonna find Manhattan, they're gonna find a car. He goes, in fact, they would say, America never existed at all, it was just that myth that people talked about. Right? Okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. And he's right.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:04
He's right, you know, what, look, I mean, there's something that they used to call black soil, the you know, about this in the in Mesoamerica, that they so it was this combination that the Maya used to do, because there were like, because because the Amazon was not fertile land back in the day,
Michael Le Flem 1:06:24
We'll hold that thought and continue. But I gotta remember something after this, thank you so,
Alex Ferrari 1:06:29
So it wasn't fertile land at that point. But they were able to create this soil mixed in with some sort of certain other things that was so fertile, that they could plant it anywhere and they would become fertile land instantly. And they have examples of it but they just don't understand how it was even created. This is stuff that we're discovering now and let's get to what they burned what that comes kicks the doors burned in Mayan, Mayan history
Michael Le Flem 1:06:58
We're lucky we are lucky that we just have like the Chilean Bala like things like that were nice crease said I got to put this away. I got to save this one thing. You know, whatever's on the walls or whatever, whatever's on the wall. But you know, it's so interesting, Alex, that you mentioned the ancient art of agriculture because, again, not to just go on about this book, but it's it shows how powerful these clairvoyant sources are. So in a dweller on two planets from 1886 channeled book, he's talking about coming back from India. And he goes, now we're traveling on our return. They go around the world just sightseeing. He goes to Utah. He goes to the Tetons, he goes all over, he goes to mid Lake Superior, he goes to all of these places, and he's like, we're sightseeing over the Amazon right now. Okay, and he says, this is from 1886. He says, you know, you all think that this is a pristine wilderness. And he goes, but it wasn't that way. He goes, we Atlanteans transported all the most of the crops and plants that you think are wild to the Amazon in my time. Okay, he said that in 1886. Well, three years ago, the BBC releases a press release, scientists team of international scientists shocked to discover that the Amazon has actually been farmed for 10s of over 10,000 years, we now know. And probably criss crossed with irrigation ditches and it's like, how did a 17 year old kid in 1886 know that? Unless he was in touch with something we don't really think is real, but we should. And so that's what I do in the book anytime. Anytime a statement is made. I go, here's the source. Or if there is no evidence, hey, there is no evidence, but I was never able to categorically refute anything he said, or Casey said about this timeline. It was just more information needed or bingo. Oh, wow. There is evidence of irrigation in the Amazon 10,000 years ago that we just discovered now. You know,
Alex Ferrari 1:09:13
Are there any modern scientific discoveries or theories that indirectly support or challenge the existence of Atlantis to be the devil's advocate here?
Michael Le Flem 1:09:23
Sure. You know, I'm thinking off the top of my head. I mean, not really, especially not after Gobekli Tepic, I think before Gobekli Teppei, you could make a claim, maybe, and especially not after the discovery and was it in South Pacific and I believe Indonesia, Borneo, Gudang, Guna, Gunung Padang, which they think is 20,000 years old, and it's like, yeah, that thing is insane. I sought an ancient apocalypse. What's that
Alex Ferrari 1:09:53
Yeah, that thing is insane. I sought an ancient apocalypse.
Michael Le Flem 1:09:53
What's that all about?
Alex Ferrari 1:09:54
Yeah, that's like another whole other world.
Michael Le Flem 1:09:55
I think, I think, maybe 20 years ago, it was That's why I have so have tremendous respect for people like Hancock, who, in 1995 was talking about this stuff before Gobekli Tepe Bay and goon Pradhan were even discovered. And so I think it's really difficult today, specifically with Gobekli Tepe. I think that's like if you still think that there were only hunter gatherers on Earth, it's not more that Gobekli tepid, I heard somebody say in an article, oh, there is brewing beer there, and they just hung out there. We found evidence that they actually were just a brewery were hunter gatherers came to drink. I'm like, so that how is it any extent? Do you know? Did they extend, I don't know.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:39
20 ton pieces of, of what is the grant whatever the deal,
Michael Le Flem 1:10:44
They just, they just got drunk Alex, they got a couple short lights they got and got. And they built a ramp. You know, just like in Giza, they built a ramp, Alex, that's, that doesn't exist, right? I'm bigger than the pyramid itself that just disappeared into thin air.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:58
And then , by the way, also, also chiseled in really accurate. astronomical.
Michael Le Flem 1:11:06
Yeah, the is this more accurate than the Greenwich we use today, we were supposed to actually, it was a conference, believe it or not around the turn of the century, where they were deciding what's going to be the international time count meridian. And they were gonna pick Giza because they said this is more true than Greenwich. And at the last moment, they said, Greenwich, we're going to use the Greenwich tower or whatever. And again, yeah, they just, you know, they just
Alex Ferrari 1:11:35
Right, and then also, don't forget the pyramid. The dimensions of the pyramid, if you multiply it by a certain like, the width of the pyramid is the height of the earth, in dimensions or something like that.
Michael Le Flem 1:11:48
The actual scale of the pyramid is an integer, and Christopher Dunn discovered this, it's a literal scale model of the weight of the earth.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:59
So the dynamic we ended the diameter here,
Michael Le Flem 1:12:03
Like it divides the hemispheres, which you know, you need in a tomb, Alex, you know, we're so important.
Alex Ferrari 1:12:10
Well, they've never found any, there's never found a body in there, man, they've never found a body, or any, there's no hieroglyphic, there's no hieroglyphs inside of the pyramids.
Michael Le Flem 1:12:20
And that leads me I guess, you know, to kind of conclude this part of the discussion. It's why I spent so much time on like the psychology of the academic world. And not just academia, but any of these journalists from Slate, or National Geographic, and there are some good ones. But I point out some cases where it's like, all they have is ad hominem attacks, and basically, counting on your own ignorance of this material. You know, because I really wanted to give this book to the world to show people like, Look, if you've ever on the fence, like, there are a couple of just shut down type arguments you can make, you know, where if somebody saw you believe in Atlantis, and I mean, you could use what you said, like, will you believe a man walked on water and raised himself from the dead? Not saying he did or didn't. But I mean, billions of people believe that. Are they all crazy? We don't even need that kind of leap of faith, to just think, well, if modern humans have existed for at least a quarter of a million years, with the same or greater brain capacity as us, why did it take us 193,000 years to learn how to farm? That's a great question. Or Edgar Casey and Frederick Oliver, are telling a story that's been lost to us. And we've actually always been advanced or on varying levels of advancement, but that the current level of technology has existed dozens of times through dozens of cultures in dozens of destructions. And that we've always had electricity in different forms. We've always had internet in different forms, because physics doesn't change as far as I know. And if the same physics can produce this today, then they can produce it in the past, you know, it still has the same materials same, it's the same like sandbox to create. So if we had the same brain quarter of a million years ago, what happened?
Alex Ferrari 1:14:32
What's What's difference between that and now?
Michael Le Flem 1:14:35
Alex Ferrari 1:14:36
Well, that's the question that one of why didn't during the Roman times when there was wealth and power and everything, we didn't make the kind of kind of advances that we did today.
Michael Le Flem 1:14:47
Well, you know, there's a few strange things like, you know, what the Romans knew about steam power, but they only used it for toys, you know, and the ancient Greeks had on temples, doors that open, not automatically, you still had to start the machine, but they had steam powered doors on a certain temple, I believe in Delphi, to make people think the gods were opening the doors so and then, like Archimedes had inventions that like levering of types of types of levers that, even to this day are incredibly advanced and canta levers for that time. But I would argue, and I talked about this, I think quite a bit in the book, that whatever did exist in terms of that record of that knowledge, whether it was deployed or kept for the priesthood, or whatever, I do believe was taken to the Vatican or destroyed outright during the three destructions. One, purposeful, the second one, the first the fire that Julius Caesar started to save, Cleopatra's ask for more crazy brother, and then the third village by, you know, the first Muslims to take over Alexandria. So I think there probably were records of high technology and its use, they're just gone, you know,
Alex Ferrari 1:16:11
Or, or exist in the vaults of the Vatican,
Michael Le Flem 1:16:14
Or in the basement? Yeah, of course, they took something, if they could take an obelisk, you know, from Heliopolis, and bring it back to Italy. I'm sure they could tick a few boxes of books on like alchemy. I'm sure they have a couple of those down there in the basement. But they won't let me in you down there. So we'll never know.
Alex Ferrari 1:16:30
And one other thing that I've started to come to understand, too, you mentioned earlier that the polar, the Poles started to shift in history. That's something that a lot of people don't grasp the understanding of, through time, by nature, the poles, the magnetic poles, shift the north. And so what Antarctica at one point, was not frozen. It wasn't a frozen wasteland as it is. And it's like, perfect example, as they discovered that Giza the Giza plateau was once you have the Amazon flourishing
Michael Le Flem 1:17:04
When, when when they built the pyramid, according to Cayce, it was a fertile grassland.
Alex Ferrari 1:17:09
Right! Exactly. It wasn't all just desert and no ramps.
Michael Le Flem 1:17:13
Alex Ferrari 1:17:14
So there's, there's so other places could have been completely covered in ice. Like yeah, according to according to, to Graham Hancock,
Michael Le Flem 1:17:22
Half of North America, half of North America was under a two mile ice sheet.
Alex Ferrari 1:17:27
Right! That was just covered up so it just slowly. Man, there's so much what ifs in this. I mean, you going down this rabbit hole, man must have been just exciting. And
Michael Le Flem 1:17:41
It was it was crazy. It was crazy. It was like a nervous breakdown every day that I turned into a book, you know, I guess?
Alex Ferrari 1:17:49
Because you just said like, No, that can't be it. And then then you start connecting the dots here and there. It's like almost like a like a detective or detective story. Yeah.
Michael Le Flem 1:17:57
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's how I was trained. I was trained by some really wonderful, like, really intelligent professors who really like pushed me, you know, if I would be doing any investigation, they're like, look, this is great to bring in secondary sources. But like, go back to the originals with anything, even in my traditional study of the Enlightenment, like, go back to a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to his friend in Paris, and like, read it, and really see what he said, Don't just read a critique of it, or article, like, you could come up with a new idea. You know, and I never forgot. That's really how historian should should do it. And that's why I had to go back and read a dweller on two planets 10 times probably the only person on earth and sit there like a weirdo and read 500 channeled transcripts from Edgar Cayce, from the archives of the ARB, because it's not enough to just read a book on this is what Edgar Cayce he said about Atlantis, because I'll be honest with you, a lot of those authors didn't do a close reading, you know, they did a great job of, hey, look, here's in general what he said. But I think to be honest, this is one of the most detailed, like meticulous studies of how clairvoyant evidence lines up with, quote unquote, hard science, you know, that I have seen, because that's what I was trying to do.
Alex Ferrari 1:19:19
In your opinion, what is the most important unanswered question about Atlantis?
Michael Le Flem 1:19:25
Does the Hall of Records as Casey and others have said exist? And if so, what is the physical? Right, because Casey said, you know, famously, there was one of them. One repository was under the Sphinx between the Sphinx and the Nile River. And if that is indeed true, I mean, we would probably have to take years just like we did with the Dead Sea scrolls to translate it. But if that is indeed true, and you could see like a preserved, you know, Cayce says there's like musical instruments and things like this made out of aura calcium, you know, which is a famous metal that Plato mentioned. If we could find something like that, that had like, even perhaps like a crystal hard drive that could be like accessed, you know, like, imagine like, welcome to Atlantis, I, you know,
Alex Ferrari 1:20:21
Very, very, very, very Krypton like,
Michael Le Flem 1:20:25
Well, I mean, you know, but it's like, I've always wondered like, you know, I mean, most of what Casey said, I found to be pretty accurate. So when he said that there is a hall of records that is protected by an electrostatic energetic barrier that cannot be passed until humanity evolves to that frequency, it will kill anybody that tries to enter the chamber. Well, perhaps it has been discovered and discovered to be lethal to that team. Perhaps it entered it. It's not impossible, that Zahi Hawass and friends have been aware of that, and maybe got close to it and realize, like, Oh, my God, there is an electrostatic or some sort of frequency barrier, which is a technology, it's not mystical. It's a technology. And if that were the case, I think that is a really fascinating mystery, you know, the search for the Hall of Records. And, you know, but again, it's like, because they'll predictively program you with an Indiana Jones movie or something, you know, like the Crystal Skull, it's like, Oh, you think you're gonna find a crystal skull? And it's like, well, crystal skulls have been found some fake some real, but the real ones we can't explain. So, which came first a crystal scholar Indiana Jones. Like, oh, that book you wrote sounds like Star Wars. Well, which came first? A channel book in 1886. For Star Wars, A New Hope in 1977. Like, let's be honest, man. We're onto something.
Alex Ferrari 1:21:57
Well, I do have to say that the Indiana Jones is fantastic. So I don't watch those anymore. The brand new one just came out. So much fun. Okay. You have to watch it when it comes out
Michael Le Flem 1:22:13
Still going? And how old is Indiana Jones and this one?
Alex Ferrari 1:22:17
He's at 80. He's actually in real life. I think he's like, 81 82. Wow. They he's like in his late 70s In the movie, and they address it very clearly. What's that, just like this, but it's a lot of fun. Anyway. All right, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests because I could keep talking to you about Atlantis for another five hours.
Michael Le Flem 1:22:41
Going over time.
Alex Ferrari 1:22:43
Keep going. But these are a couple questions asked all my guests. What is your definition of living a fulfilled life?
Michael Le Flem 1:22:48
Doing what you love every day? If
Alex Ferrari 1:22:51
you had a chance to go back in time and talk to little Michael, what advice would you give him?
Michael Le Flem 1:22:55
Keep going! You're not crazy.
Alex Ferrari 1:23:00
How do you define God?
Michael Le Flem 1:23:01
However you want to.
Alex Ferrari 1:23:03
And what is the ultimate purpose of life?
Michael Le Flem 1:23:05
To ask what the ultimate purpose of life is?
Alex Ferrari 1:23:08
And hopefully get an answer.
Michael Le Flem 1:23:11
I don't know if that's possible. Alex. I can't answer that question right now, Alex.
Alex Ferrari 1:23:18
And where can people find out more about you your book and the work that you're doing sir?
Michael Le Flem 1:23:21
You could go to my website, Michaelleflem. Last Name one word.com. And there's a link to the book. And you can find the book on Amazon. And it's also actually available now. I translated it into Spanish under Visiones de la Atlántida. So you can find it in Spanish as well, on and on, on Amazon in English, and as an audio book and Kindle. And there's an audio book. Yeah, there's an audit audio book, and actually, right now working on the audio book in Spanish with the guy with a guy. So that's all for me, you got no excuse, you can read it in any format or listen to it. So
Alex Ferrari 1:23:21
And what is your parting message to the audience about the history of Atlantis?
Michael Le Flem 1:23:32
You know, just keep an open mind you be really surprised. What we don't know. You know, and that's why I think I opened the book with my parting quote here, Alex, which is from Socrates, you know, I'm the wisest man alive, you know, because I know one thing, and that's that I know nothing, you know. And it's the tone of the book, and it's the tone of how I operate. And I think true knowledge cannot be anything more than the search, you know, for for the search is is indeed the objective when you're coming to a subject like this. Who are we to say exactly where, what how the civilization existed? All we can say is it looks to be the case that there was something and it's not just a myth.
Alex Ferrari 1:25:01
Michael, it has been a pleasure chatting with you man about Atlantis. Thank you so much for coming on the show and I appreciate you and what you're trying to do for the world, my friend so thank you.
Michael Le Flem 1:25:11
Thank you so much, Alex. It's been a great time.
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