Next Level Soul Podcast Episode 328
Do physics and spirituality describe the same thing? Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar tells Alex Ferrari how he sees quantum physics and meditation meeting, why love cannot be measured, and why astonishment is the first step on the path.
Key Takeaways
- Gurudev says quantum physics and spirituality both describe everything as vibration, just in different languages.
- He says Maya means “that which can be measured,” while love, compassion and truth cannot be measured.
- He says life blends destiny and free will: you cannot choose the rain, but you can open the umbrella.
- He describes three bodies, physical, subtle and causal, and says meditation lets you know the deeper two directly.
- He calls a near-death experience a flash of lightning in the night, and meditation the daylight.
- He says skepticism is a good place to start, as long as it does not slip into cynicism.
Quantum Physics and Spirituality Describe the Same Vibration
Alex opens by asking how the world of quantum physics and the world of spirituality connect. Gurudev answers that they are really two descriptions of one thing. Physics says everything is vibration and wave function. The Vedic tradition says the same, using a Sanskrit idea of a special vibration that appears to us as matter.
He adds an important point about how both views can be true at once. A table, a chair and a door can all be made of wood, and each can also be understood as atoms and energy. Classical physics and quantum physics, he says, are both correct at their own level, in the same way that waves seen from above look still while waves seen up close are clearly moving.
This matters because it removes the argument about which view wins. For Gurudev, science and spirituality share the same method at heart: you begin with a question, you look for experience, and you let the experience change your understanding.
Maya, Oneness and the Witness
Gurudev explains that the Sanskrit word Maya means “that which can be measured.” Anything that can be measured belongs to the world of Maya, which is perfectly real on its own terms. But love, compassion and truth cannot be measured, so they point beyond it.
He also challenges the idea of a distant judge. He says there is no one up there designing everything and punishing people. Instead, he describes one universal consciousness, with a part of us that simply watches, which he calls the witness. He offers the image of a hologram, where each small part contains the whole, and of ocean waves, where every wave affects every other wave while all of them are the ocean.
When Alex asks about the observer effect, Gurudev points to a Sanskrit saying that things appear as you see them, meaning the observer has an impact on what is observed. He says that when you look from physics or from spirituality, you arrive at the same unison: everything impacts everything else.
Destiny, Free Will and the Difference Between Knowledge and Wisdom
One of the most practical parts of the conversation is Gurudev’s take on destiny and free will. He says life is a combination of both. Your height is destiny, and your weight is largely free will. Using a food analogy, he says the ingredients that arrive in your life may be fixed, but what you bake with them is yours. Rain is destiny, he says, but whether you get wet is free will, because you can carry an umbrella.
This framing gives people room to stop blaming everything on fate and to stop believing they control everything. You work with what comes, and you keep your agency in how you respond.
He draws a similar line between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is what you hear and appreciate. Wisdom is what becomes part of your life. You can read a hundred spiritual books and still be untouched, and he suggests that the way across that gap is practice, especially meditation.
Meditation, the Fourth State and What to Expect
Gurudev describes how we move through three familiar states of consciousness: waking, dreaming and deep sleep. In meditation, he says, you can touch a fourth state, where you are awake and deeply rested at once. He compares the brain to a frequency analyzer that picks up whatever is tuned in, and says that in deep meditation you can tune into subtler frequencies and energies around us.
He gives a clear piece of advice for meditation teachers: do not tell students what to expect. If you describe a vision or a feeling in advance, the student may produce a hallucination of it, and that can become an obstruction. Instead, he says, the experience should arrive on its own, and the real message is that you are nothing but light.
Alex shares that he has meditated for six or seven years and has found a reference point inside that does not change, a sense of “I’m not this.” Gurudev agrees that this is the kind of discovery meditation delivers. The benefits he lists are intuition, love and innovation, which show up in ordinary life as clearer decisions, warmer relationships and fresh ideas.
The Physical, Subtle and Causal Bodies
Alex brings up Paramahansa Yogananda’s Autobiography of a Yogi, which describes the same master appearing in two places at once. Gurudev says this is possible because of the subtle body, a body of light. He uses a simple image. A television sits in one place, but radio waves are everywhere. In the same way, the physical body is in one place, while what it reflects is spirit, which is not limited to a location.
He then lays out the three bodies. The physical body is what we see. The subtle body is made of light and holds the mind and senses. The causal body is the deepest layer. He says the body is actually inside the mind, not the other way around, and offers the image of a candle and its glow: the glow extends beyond the flame, just as the subtle body extends beyond the physical one. In deep sleep, he says, we touch the causal body, and in meditation you can enter that rest consciously.
Enlightenment, as he puts it, is not about adding something. It is like Michelangelo chipping away the extra stone to reveal the statue, or peeling a banana. He says that as you get comfortable with the subtle and causal bodies, you can feel as confident about them as you now feel about your physical body, and life becomes a celebration.
Near-Death Experiences and Out-of-Body Experiences
Alex asks about the thousands of people who report near-death experiences and whether the Vedic texts say anything about death. Gurudev says yes, and that you can have an out-of-body experience by going deep in meditation, so it is not a big deal. Alex gently notes that for many people who have one, it is a very big deal,.
His comparison is memorable. A near-death experience is like lightning in a dark night. For a moment you see all the buildings around you, and you realize there is a world beyond what the intellect and the senses perceive. Meditation is daylight. You can see everything, and you can look as long as you like.
If you want more accounts of this, you can explore the Dr. Lisa Miller episode or browse the Next Level Soul Podcast for near-death experience guests.
How to Be Skeptical Without Becoming Cynical
Alex asks what he would say to a listener whose intellect keeps saying this is all nonsense. Gurudev’s reply is warm. Being skeptical is very good, he says, and skeptics can find the truth. The danger is slipping into cynicism. A skeptic holds an open mind and stays curious about possibilities, while a cynic has closed the door.
He also cautions against being a believer in the blind sense, because belief is a concept you carry without knowing. The healthy path is a quest for truth, for your own authentic experience. He notes that no real scientist can afford to be closed, since science itself depends on curiosity.
When Alex asks why the establishment struggles to accept quantum ideas that even Einstein called spooky, Gurudev says that skepticism takes longer when it hardens. He also contrasts two traditions of thought. The Oriental approach, he says, puts experience first and belief second. The Occidental approach asks you to believe first and perhaps experience later. Science, he points out, is closer to the first because its method is the same: try it, observe it, then build on it.
Parallel Realities and the Need for Balance
Alex asks about parallel realities, and Gurudev says that once you accept layers of reality, you have accepted parallel ones. He uses a baking image: the same dough becomes sourdough, pasta or pizza. The base is the same, and the many forms are a celebration of oneness. For a starting place, he suggests looking at your own dream state, which feels completely real while you are in it.
Then he adds a caution. Do not get lost in any one reality. He compares it to a radio needle stuck between two stations, where you hear both at once and need help to fix it. Channeling and psychic experiences can bring knowledge, but dwelling in them too much can take you away from the physical world. Among saints, he says, when someone claims a big realization, the first question is whether it is just the intellect.
This is why balance matters. You cannot push a thousand watts through a two hundred watt bulb, so the nervous system has to grow its capacity first. Alex shares that some channelers told him the first time energy came through, it felt like they might explode if they were unprepared. Gurudev agrees and adds that it does not take years and years, just a little time, step by step.
The Power of Now and the Problem of Ego
When Alex asks him to explain the concept of the now, Gurudev laughs and says that is the answer, since you are already there. If you try to explain the now, he says, you are in the past, chewing something that has already been chewed. The one thing that stays forever is now.
On ego, Alex asks how to avoid the trap of competing to be the most spiritual person in the room. Gurudev answers that when this vast universe is in your consciousness, nothing is left to hold on to the idea of being special. Ego is a wall of separation, the feeling of being different from others, and at some point it simply drops. In his words, comparison is the first thing to drop on the spiritual path, and then you see that everyone is unique in the same way.
Asked whether quantum field theory can be seen as a magnification of cosmic consciousness, he says yes: science shocks the intellect into stillness. That astonishment, he says, is the first step on the spiritual path.
The World Culture Festival and the Journey Within
Near the end, Alex asks about the World Culture Festival. Gurudev says festivals are not held to achieve something but to express what is. This one expresses diversity, and he thinks it is needed because the world feels so polarized. When people meditate together, he says, it creates a collective energy that lifts consciousness, and the festival combines a large group meditation with music, dance and food from around the world. It is held every five years, and this was the fourth edition, in Washington, D.C.
He also points to his latest book, which he says gives tips on managing emotions and staying in touch with the element deep inside that is full of love and light.
One more moment is worth noting. Alex asks whether humanity is awakening more now than when Gurudev was born. He declines to compare, saying people in every era have had profound experiences, even if we had no social media or cell phones to share them. Counting that, he says, would be like counting waves.
Spiritual Takeaways
- Look for what traditions and sciences share, not only where they differ.
- Stay skeptical and curious, and do not let skepticism turn into cynicism.
- Treat meditation as a way to build the capacity of your nervous system, one step at a time.
- Use free will to meet what destiny brings, like opening the umbrella in the rain.
- Turn knowledge into wisdom by living it.
- Let astonishment open your curiosity, and let comparison drop away.
Please enjoy my conversation with Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.
Guest Links: Connect With Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar is an Indian spiritual teacher, humanitarian and founder of the Art of Living, who has guided millions of people in meditation and breathing practices. In this conversation he speaks with Alex Ferrari about how modern physics and ancient Vedic wisdom describe the same reality. He is also behind the World Culture Festival, which brings people from many traditions together for shared meditation, music and dance. He teaches from direct experience and keeps returning to the idea that you do not have to believe anything to begin.
How does Gurudev connect quantum physics and spirituality?
He says both fields describe the universe as vibration. In Sanskrit he points to the idea of a special vibration that appears as matter, and he notes that physics speaks of wave functions in much the same way. He thinks the two views are not enemies, because each can be correct at its own level, like a table that is also wood and also atoms. For him, science works with measurement while spirituality works with direct experience, and the two meet in astonishment.
What does Maya mean in this conversation?
Gurudev explains that the Sanskrit word Maya comes from a root meaning “that which can be measured.” Everything you can measure belongs to the world of Maya, which is real at its own level. Love, compassion and truth cannot be measured, so they point to something beyond Maya. He uses this to show that the material world and the spiritual world are layers of one reality instead of two competing ones.
What is the difference between destiny and free will?
Gurudev says life is a combination of both. He uses the example of height, which is destiny, and weight, which is largely free will. He adds that rain is destiny, but whether you get wet is free will because you can open an umbrella. His point is that you cannot change everything that arrives, yet you always keep a say in how you meet it.
What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom?
He describes knowledge as what you hear and appreciate. Wisdom, he says, is knowledge that has become a part of your life. You can understand an idea and still not live it, and the gap between the two is where practice comes in. Meditation, in his view, is how knowledge turns into lived wisdom.
What are the three bodies Gurudev talks about?
He describes a physical body, a subtle body and a causal body. The physical body is what we see and feel. The subtle body is made of light and is the one people sometimes experience leaving the physical body. The causal body is the deepest layer, which he says we briefly touch in deep sleep. He says that as you gain confidence in the subtle and causal bodies through meditation, you can feel as sure of them as you now feel about your physical body.
What does Gurudev say about near-death and out-of-body experiences?
He says you do not need to nearly die to have such an experience, because going deep in meditation can bring an out-of-body experience too. He calls a near-death experience a flash of lightning on a dark night that briefly shows you the buildings around you. Meditation, in his comparison, is like daylight, where you can see everything clearly and for as long as you like. He thinks near-death accounts are valuable because they give people stuck in the intellect a glimpse of a larger world.
What does he say to skeptics?
He says being skeptical is healthy and is a good place to start, but it should not slip into cynicism. A skeptic stays curious and open to possibilities, and that curiosity can wake up a quest for truth. A cynic has already decided. He adds that you do not have to be a believer, because belief is just a concept you have not yet tested, and he invites people to go looking for their own experience.
Why does it take time to experience higher realities?
Gurudev compares the nervous system to a bulb that can only handle a certain wattage. You cannot suddenly send a thousand watts through a two hundred watt bulb. Meditation gradually builds the capacity of the nervous system so that subtle experiences can be held without becoming overwhelming. He tells Alex it does not take years and years, only a little time, as long as you move step by step and stay balanced.
How can I keep my ego from taking over my spiritual path?
He says that when you see the vastness of the universe, there is little left to feel special about. Ego is a wall of separation, the sense of being different from everyone else, and at some point it simply drops on its own. Comparison is the first thing to fall away in spiritual life, and uniqueness then shows up as something everyone shares. He also recommends staying balanced, since stopping at any one experience or reality can pull you away from daily life.
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Follow Along with the Transcript
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 0:00
All that could be measured is Maya, that sight and smell, taste sound, all that. But what cannot be measured? Is love, compassion, truth. You can't say two kilos of love and three kilos of compassion are the 10 pounds of truth. No, these values which cannot be measured are called that which is not Maya which is true.
Alex Ferrari 0:40
I'd like to welcome to the show Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, thank you so much for being on the show my friend. I'm been a big fan of yours for a while and I love the work that you're doing Gurudev you're you and I have an allied mission in life to awaken the planet, and to make it a happier and healthier place for all of the souls. So first of all, I want to thank you and appreciate all the work that you're doing for the world.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 1:05
Thank you Alex and continue doing what you have been doing. I mean, you have been an inspiration for millions around the world.
Alex Ferrari 1:14
I am trying my friend I am trying. So my very first question to you is I wanted to delve into areas that I normally don't see you asked a lot about, which is how spirituality is mixed with quantum physics, and how those two worlds intersect. So as I know, you have a background in physics, as well as a background in spirituality. So how do spirituality and quantum physics intersect for you?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 1:38
I think quantum physics says it's all just vibrations, everything is just wavefunction. And spirituality says absolutely the same thing. But in a different language. It says everything is Panda. In the sense this panda means vibrations. And they said there are two different types of pandas one special vibration and ordinary vibration. Matter is called the special vibration. And ordinary vibration is just the space, which is non matter or just energy which is not visible for our five senses.
Alex Ferrari 2:19
So then how does the Vedic concept of Maya or illusion align with our modern discussion of simulation theory?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 2:27
You know, that's exactly what the latest Nobel laureates in physics, for last year's Nobel laureates in the three scientists have said the world doesn't exist. The way what we see or think it is, Maya, you know, the word measure in English comes from the Sanskrit word called Maya. That means that which can be measured. And all that could be measured is Maya, that sight and smell, taste sound, all that, but what cannot be measured? Is love, compassion, truth, you can't say, two kilos of love and three kilos of compassion, the 10 pounds of truth, no, these values which cannot be measured, are called that which is not my admit is true.
Alex Ferrari 3:23
So if we are living in a simulation group, what is the purpose of this simulation? And is there a player playing? The the game? If this is a game, a simulation, let's say, and we are players in a video game, our avatars are Who is playing the player? And what is above that? And then who designed that? Who designed it all in the first place?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 3:49
First of all, there is nobody sitting up there who design and who makes you do a mistake and then comes after you to punish you. You know, it's what is this? I would say, is science, knowing objectively and who are my spirituality, and the whoever my question takes you in the journey to really find out the center of all actions, which is a witness to actions. Number one, second is that spirit by which everything is made and in which everything is almost like hologram, you know, in hologram, you get all the it's the same light, which comes as all different characters. In the same way, we see that one universal consciousness, and it's play and display as the whole fun in creation.
Alex Ferrari 4:55
There is a concept that I've been hearing a lot about because I have conversations with a near death experiencers and spiritual masters like yourself, who say that everything is happening all at once. So there is no past there is no future. There were I always my analogy is we are at the point in the record, the record is our existence. And the soul is where where we are right now is the point on the needle, touching the record. But everything has already happened in the past and in the future. How can you explain that to somebody? In a way that makes sense because it's a hard concept to understand that everything is happening all at once? And how does that interact with freewill?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 5:35
See, if you're if you're flying higher up and if you apply about the ocean, and you look down, the waves appear to be stationary, you will see on the beach, you will see just a line of white lining of waves which appear to be not moving at all. Have you noticed that? Yes, of course. Of course. Yeah. But when you come down, then you see it's not the same wave every minute there is a new wave coming up. So this is a combination of both classical chemistry and quantum physics that is there the truth is they both are correct. For example, I can say this is all wood. Yes, that's true. When it comes to fire this will all burn but then they say no the chair is not the Table Table is not the door door is not the floor floor is not the ceiling. It's very different. If you say the chair has to be door I say no, it's not so. So in the same way in life there is freewill and destiny. Life is neither all destiny or nor all freewill is what I'm saying. Like your height is your destiny. And your weight is your freewill.
Alex Ferrari 7:00
My free my freewill has been going crazy lately, Gurudev. I need to work on my freewill. No question about it. I think most of us do in the West have to work on our freewill. But that's a really good point of view. Because you're right, when you're born, you're going to be six foot tall, you're going to be five foot tall. That's nothing, absolutely nothing you can do about that. It's just part of your destiny, but your weight, or where you walk or how you walk, those kind of like what direction you walk, is your free will. But there's things but are there markers in your life that are destined. So in other words, there will be that car accident, you will be born to these parents, you will go down this this road or you will be you know, in the music industry or you will be in an author there's certain things that will happen.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 7:50
But there's different Right, right. You know, it's like baking an apple pie. Once you bake an apple pie, and the apple you cannot bring it to its original, you know, unburied, you cannot make it on Big Apple. But if the the sweetness is less you put a little more syrup in it. If it's too much syrup, you put a little more apple or flow, you can play around with that. Similarly, it's you know, if it's raining outside it is destiny, but to get wet or not to get wet is your freebo you can take an umbrella and you will stay dry. Right. So, life is the combination and knowing what is the city what is free will is our prism, how we apply our wisdom to accept the destiny and to play with the free will is all up to us.
Alex Ferrari 8:50
So what is the difference between knowledge and wisdom?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 8:55
Knowledge is that you simply hear and you appreciate wisdom is that becomes part of your life.
Alex Ferrari 9:03
Beautiful answer to that. Now Lately there has been a lot of talk in in the zeitgeist about the multiverse, other dimensions, other realities, these are concepts that have been in the Vedic texts for millennia, but it is starting to come people are becoming more aware of it and also more accepting of these ideas and also with quantum physics. So how do spiritual dimensions align with multiple realities in quantum physics?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 9:35
You know, spiritual dimension accepts this, it reveals the multiple dimensions. You know, first of all, we must know that we have three dimensions that everyone go through waking, dreaming and sleeping. Now, if we understand these three dimensions, well, which we don't usually we ignore We just do not even pay any attention to our dreams, we don't pay attention to our deep sleep, or even ponder into it. If we do this, then we have the fourth state of consciousness, which is none of this, but is in the background of all that which one can experience in meditation. But then, if we move on with that, practice, then we get into a state, then that inner calmness, serenity, the witness consciousness exists. In spite of all other activity you do, whether you're sleeping or dreaming everything, you get into another dimension, then we have access to other subtle energies, subtle words that are around us. You know, our brain is like a frequency analyzer. You see, and we can use it the way they want, once we are very familiar with it,
Alex Ferrari 11:03
Can you explain to me or can you explain to the audience, the process of meditation, and after years of practice in meditation, what starts to happen spiritually to you, because from my perspective of I've been meditating six, seven years, pretty steadily hour to two hours a day. And I've seen from the first moments where I could barely hold together 15 minutes, to where I could sit now for two or three hours, and how I feel the energy, the the access to my inner voices, access to vision, sometimes all these kinds of things, it seems to be growing, can you explain to people what power that meditation has in this life and in this reality,
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 11:50
You know, the code of conduct for meditation teacher, is not to tell them, You have to experience this or that or that and that, you know why? Because that would be a hindrance, that people's progress in meditation is, you know, I say, Oh, you will see blue light or do this and that, then someone sits with eyes closed, and they try to anticipate that sight type of experience, which can turn into a hallucination or an obstruction for them to go deep with them. But all that I could say is practice meditation, you will discover the enormous potential you have, you will discover you are nothing but light, your discovery, your love, and your intuitive ability will start to manifest. And your innovative spirit becomes very high. So these are the benefits of meditation that you can reap that we can of course, say, but what you should have in meditation, it isn't better not said
Alex Ferrari 13:06
I agree with you 110%. When when you go deep into meditation is it seem, it seems like you're almost seeing behind the curtain of Maya, you're starting to grab on to the truth, if you will, of who we really aren't kind of disconnecting from the illusion and understanding Oh, really? The light I am really the soul. I'm really that is that? Is that correct?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 13:36
Yeah, it starts with I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this. And I'm not my emotions, which are changing all the time, I'm not these thoughts, and I'm not even my body, all the things in my body is changing, you know, everything is changing. So fast, you recognize the changing world around you. And then you realize, you can only see the change, you can recognize the changes when you accept and acknowledge that is something that is a reference point, which is not changing. And slowly you step into that reference point, that self referential value. And that's it, then you have no questions.
Alex Ferrari 14:22
Very, very interesting. Now, I I've been a devotee of Paramahansa Yogananda for many years and the his book autobiography, Autobiography of a Yogi really changed the way I looked at life and spirituality. There's a There's a story in there. I'd love to hear your partner's perspective on it, where he was talking about a yogi or a master, who was a two places at the same time. And how can that be explained through quantum physics? Because it sounds very quantum physics see, being two places at the same time, but he was talking Think about that years before those concepts really being delved into in quantum physics. So I'd love to hear your perspective on that.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 15:07
You know, it's not the physical body, the body, flesh and bones are different than the subtle body of light. You know, our subtle body can manifest in many places, it can be many places. Yes. Possible.
Alex Ferrari 15:21
Does quantum physics, have any answers for the reality? How possible?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 15:28
Oh, yes. You know, the boom boxes are in many houses that were the tube of television tubes are in many places. And that same, you know, wavelength or read, the radio waves are everywhere. They manifest in different, you know, television sets, isn't it?
Alex Ferrari 15:55
You just did you? Okay. Okay. So that's kind of making a little bit more sense because the yogi, or the Masters figured out how to translate that signal to another place without a television, let's say, but those signals are around us at all times. Does that make sense?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 16:13
Yeah, you see, televisions are very different. They are in one place only. But the radio waves are everywhere, right? So your body is in one place. But what the body is reflecting is the spirit is the energy in you. The wavelength, Alexis, the Waveland that Alexa Waveland can be the place to is beautiful.
Alex Ferrari 16:35
Now, is there any quantum explanations for spiritual experiences, like, quote unquote, enlightenment, which is something that the West is chasing? Like, it's a destination? From my understanding, it is not a destiny, it's not a room you walk into? It is? So can you is there any way to explain those things?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 16:57
If just chipping off the extra mile. It's your very nature.
Alex Ferrari 17:03
Very Michelangelo of you. That is, that is the concept of enlightenment is just taking off the unneeded air unneeded
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 17:14
Correct! It's peeling the banana off.
Alex Ferrari 17:20
Beautiful. Now, is there any, any quantum Is there any quantum phenomenon that hints at reincarnation? Or the afterlife? In your opinion?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 17:34
Oh, yeah, we know we have three bodies, the physical body, and then the subtle body of emotions, thoughts, and our idea that that identity, and then the causal body, which is even bigger, usually people think our mind is in the body, I would say, the body is inside the mind. I often give this example of the week have a candle and the glow around it. So our bodies just a blink of a candle. And the glow is what we are.
Alex Ferrari 18:12
It's also beautiful. Yeah.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 18:15
And the subtlest body or the causal body, what we call is, is huge. So in deep sleep, we are in touch with our causal body. in dream state, we are in the subtle body. So it makes a big difference. You know, if you are only in your subtle body, and you had dreams all night, when you wake up, you will feel very tired. But when you have had deep sleep, what is happening in the phenomenon is you are you are with your causal body, which is the source of all energy, enthusiasm, freshness, liveliness, everything. So when you wake up after a deep sleep, you feel very refreshed, energized, charged, but you do. We sleep every night, but we have never met with the sleep. We've never shaken hands with our deep sleep. meditation helps you to do that. It time comes when you're able to sleep consciously. Even if you're snoring, you know you're snoring. You are dreaming, you know you are dreaming. And that is when I say life really begins. Then life becomes a celebration. I call it enlightenment you may call anything, but this is exactly where you are mastering your like physical body. Like someone who doesn't, you know, everybody has the same limbs, but someone who has mastered they can dance as a ballet ballet dance. You know how the ballet dancer they jump up and do all sorts of things. With so much confidence about their own body, physical body, in the same way, you can be confident about your subtle and causal body.
Alex Ferrari 20:10
As beautiful Institute we're talking a lot about these causal bodies and other aspects of yourself and dreams, the dreams, the dreamscape, I'd love to hear your perspective on near death experiences, because there's something that's also come up in the last 40 or 50 years, a lot of people coming out with these Near Death Experiences saying that they go to the other side, and come back. I'd love to hear your perspective on it. And is there anything in the Vedic texts? Talking about your deaths?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 20:39
Oh, yes, yeah. Yeah, you can you can experience it. When you go deep in meditation, you too, can do that you can have an out of body experience, it's not a big deal at all.
Alex Ferrari 20:51
Not for you. But for many people who have them, it could be a big deal, my friend.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 21:00
It's a fight. I mean, you know, this near death experience gives a glimpse to those who are just stuck with their little intellect and think this is all that that there is. And this is what you know, is true for them. It gives a little glimpse of a world, beyond our intellect, beyond our perceived sensory experiences. And that's good. It's like, you know, in a dark night, when there is the lightning that happens, you suddenly see all the buildings around you, in the same way. This near death experiences, I would say, is just that lightning in a dark night, with gives you a glimpse of what are hidden. But then meditation, you know, it's like being in the daylight, you can see everything.
Alex Ferrari 21:54
Yes, very true. Very true. Well, I agree with that. Let me ask you, for people who are skeptical about this conversation or that there is another side or this other world? I'm sure you've come across people who are skeptical in your work, your work? What would you tell them to? What would you say to them? If they're listening to this, that means there's a curiosity that is a scratch an itch that needs to be scratched, but they're still their intellect to saying this is not possible. This is all BS. This is not working? What would you say to them?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 22:27
Not being skeptical is very good. I will say, people who are skeptical can find the truth. But not those who are cynical. Do not let your skepticism slip into cynicism. Skeptical at Outlook is good. With the possibilities, you should keep the hope of possibilities play. So then you move towards many possibilities. And any intelligent person will always see from the area of possibilities. You see, skepticism is that center point from where you either slip into a scientific temper, no science can afford to be skeptical. They have to be open minded and more curious about things. On one side, there is curiosity. On the other side of skepticism is cynicism. So this is the middle point. And from here, you can really become curious, when you are curious. You will your quest for truth for knowledge for your authentic experience will wake up. Yeah, you don't have to be a believer, I would say a believer is already in some concept you already believe in concept, which you don't know. But if you're skeptical, it's okay. It's the right place to start. But as I said, You should go into quest of truth.
Alex Ferrari 24:10
Let me ask you this. Right now. It seems like spirituality and science are starting to come closer and closer and closer than they've ever been in recorded history to our knowledge. And the more people in science and quantum physics tried to answer questions, the kind of closer they're getting to spiritual ideas and concepts that have been around for 1000s of years. Do you find that to be true?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 24:36
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there are two thoughts in the world. One is the Oriental thought was never against science. Not one scientist was ever persecuted in the Oriental thought because it always emphasize on experience first and then believe when they say In the occidental thinking, it says you believe first and someday in the future, you may get experience. So they are very opposite. And the paradigm of scientists, science always supports the former one. The later one, science does not approve this, I don't believe but first, let me experience it, then I will build it. Right. And so Oxford do both are correct, both have their own values. But science is more close to the Oriental Philosophy just because the methodology is the same. The criteria is the same.
Alex Ferrari 25:44
Is that why it's taken so long for quantum physics to even be somewhat accepted, because in the physics community, in the science community, quantum physics is still, as Einstein called it spooky, because they can't, you know, quantum entanglement, it doesn't make you can't really prove kind of quantum, it doesn't make sense to them in the, in the time and space world, but in the quantum world, it makes all the sense in the world. So why is that? Why are? Why is the establishment having so much trouble grabbing on to these new ideas?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 26:16
Then, you know, as I said, this skepticism, we from the quest, when we move into skepticism, it takes longer time.
Alex Ferrari 26:27
Of course, that makes all the sense. Now, in quantum physics, there's something called the observer effect. How does that relate to consciousness in spirituality?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 26:37
Ofcourse, of course, in Sanskrit, there is a proverb that says, the atomic drishti that acidity, as you see, and that's how things would come, that means the observer has an impact on everything he is observing.
Alex Ferrari 26:54
So in quantum physics, to my understanding, there's a particle, but it doesn't really do anything until it's being observed, once it's being observed, then it can be meant to kind of be moved just purely by the observation. So consciousness has a similar effect, I mean, without consciousness, this body wouldn't move, it would just be a bunch of cells together, correct?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 27:18
It, you know, it's as simple as the waves in the ocean, every wave has an impact on any other way, right. So, wave has come and this wave has an impact on the other wave. And in total, every wave is part of the ocean and the ocean impact the wave and vice versa. So everything impacts everything else. That's so obvious, when you to see from the angle of physics or from spirituality, you feel the same Unison there
Alex Ferrari 27:51
Can you explain to people the concept of parallel realities. And from a spiritual perspective or from Vedic perspective,
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 28:02
The moment you accept the layers of reality. And you have accepted parallel reality. As I said, the quantum chemistry is real, you see. And point of physics is real. It's the same Dow you make the cake from that same Dow you make sourdough bread and you make pasta, you make pizza, you make Japan at all, but the base is the same right? So, like this, the world of differences, it just a celebration of the world of oneness. So multiple dimensions and parallel realities are very true. I would say, we must start from instead of just imagining, we must start from our own dream state. A dream state is appears to be very real when we are dreaming. Right? And there are five different types of dreams. So some of the time we can go in the in depth of these. But what I would say for your question, I would just say, yes, there are parallel. Worlds in parallel realities are there but make sure you don't get lost in any one of them. Why? Then it's like a needle stuck in the in the radio between two stations and you hear two things together, then you need doctor's help. Then you had to go and get it fixed. So I would not recommend anyone to get into this too much. You know, there are channeling you can channel different energy get different knowledge Coming out of it. Sometimes dwelling in too much of the psychic thing can take you far away from this reality, the physical reality we are. So we need to have a perfect balance. See in life. So this is very important. That's why in the saints community, I would say saints community among saints when they talk, if someone says, Oh, someone got enlightened said, this is intellect, okay? This is a first question they ask. Well, that's really see. So you have to live in all these different reality at a time. So it's necessary for one to take imbalance attitude in life. You see, you can't suddenly bring 1000 word energy into a bulb, which can only have 200 watts. So we need to increase the capacity of our system of our nervous system to reflect on different realities, first of all, and then, as I said, we will have a very balanced and steady attitude in.
Alex Ferrari 31:21
Yeah, so so when you're when you are. In other words, you just can't be enlightened overnight, quote, unquote, or have access to these realities overnight because your physical body and mind can't process that kind of energy or water or wattage, correct. That's why it takes years and years to build up the nervous system. To handle this kind of energy. I've I've spoken to channels, who've told me that that the first time a channeled energy came in, it was like they were about to explode almost. And if they weren't prepared for it, it could actually overload their circuits.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 32:01
Yeah, I wouldn't say it will take years and years. It takes time. It takes a little time. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 32:07
It takes time without question. Can you? Can you explain this concept of the now for people? Because it's such an interesting and simple but very complicated idea, the now and how that and how that aligns with quantum theory in general.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 32:29
The now?
Alex Ferrari 32:35
That was the answer. We were there. Were there already.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 32:39
It has no explanation. If you explain either you are in the past, I've been passed again, your inner chewing, which has already been chewed. Now,
Alex Ferrari 32:52
Now, now again, now again, that's beautiful.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 32:57
The one thing that stays forever is now
Alex Ferrari 33:02
And that's the only thing we have is now. Yeah, it's the only thing we have, when we go back to what we were saying before in regards to like, oh, he just got enlightenment is his intellect. Okay. That's very interesting. Because when you are when you tap into the truth of who we are, and that knowledge, let's say you have access to all the knowledge in the universe, all of a sudden, that has to deal psychologically, that must have some effect on the saint that is happening to, but is it? Are they just been preparing so long that they can accept it and deal with it? Or sometimes is it go off the rails a bit?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 33:44
It's possible it goes off.
Alex Ferrari 33:47
Right! It's something Well, let me ask you this with with ego. There's, I mean, I'm sure you've come across, you know, people who are like, I am the most spiritual, I am much more spiritual than you. That's the ego chasing the spiritual goal as opposed to a financial goal or career goal or a lover is now chasing the spiritual goal. How can we not fall into that trap of the ego running our spiritual quest?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 34:16
The venue of vision is broad and there is very little chance what you identify yourself as me is what is not even a speck of dust in the whole universe. Right. So when the magnanimity when the when this magnificent, enormous universe is in your consciousness, there is nothing that holds you back and identify yourself I am and the most one person and the one who have no ego other stuff. These are all it's not kindergarten stuff. You know, that time, I would say ego is nothing but a wall of separation, I am different from the others that one. And at some point of time this, this doesn't exist, it's not prominent just drops. So there is no comparison. That's why I say, in spiritual field comparison is something that first drops the drops off by itself, you don't need to do uniqueness is something that well sup See, everyone is so unique. See, and then in this whole unit where there is no, high or low, but this is all blue, that reality that just dance on one,
Alex Ferrari 35:52
Now can in your opinion, can the quantum field theory be seen as a magnification of cosmic consciousness?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 36:03
Yes, sir, no, you can say, yes, it gives you it just shocks your intellect to become still and stand for a while. So that's it. And so when you said that Satan, you are in the now and in all see, science leads you to a space of all you know, say, well, and when the love is dead, that's the basis that's a preface for spiritual awakening. Spirituality. First step is miss my insensitive, that's called astonishment. Astonishment leads you in the spiritual path. Okay,
Alex Ferrari 36:51
So Gurudev, in your experience, right now, throughout your life, have you seen this kind of consciousness awakening in humanity, more so than you did when you were born? To where we are now having these public conversations?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 37:06
I cannot compare and I will not. Because at different places, different people have different experiences. We never had social media. We never had even cell phones in those days. How can we say that people didn't have a Huawei experience in their life? You know, but I it will be a futile exercise, I would say it's like counting how many waves are arising from indoor activities. In times in time, and again, people have recorded their experiences. And those experiences have stood up. That doesn't mean others did not have those experience.
Alex Ferrari 37:51
Yes. Now, can you tell me really quickly about your World Cultural Festival and what you're trying to achieve with it?
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 37:58
You know, festivals are they're not to achieve anything but to express what is. So while Culture Festival is an expression of diversity, if you really want to say it, that it attribute any achievement to it, I would say it is most needed today. As we are so polarized in the world, in this country, especially rising violence 2.9 mass shootings per day, and one person taking his or her life every 42nd All these the, you know, maladies of our society can over can only be overcome by coming together and realizing seeing life from a bigger perspective of One World family. So we will be having meditation, when we meditate all together, it creates a more collective spirit and energy. it uplifts the consciousness. So there will be a big meditation, and then music and dance and world cuisine people to share healthy food from around the world. Yes. Every five years we have been holding this. This is the fourth edition of world culture festival and it's here in Washington DC and on the knowledge rent, I would say all these other questions what you have been asking I put this latest book which has become the best seller now knows for the journey within this book. Given tips of how you can manage your emotions, how to be in touch with that element deep inside of you, which is so beautiful and it is Though full of love and light,
Alex Ferrari 40:03
I appreciate my friend Garudev, thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you for all the amazing work you're doing in the world. I appreciate you.
Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 40:10
Wonderful, bye!
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