Next Level Soul Podcast Episode 736
Sarah Kerr is a death doula and sacred death care guide who works through the Center for Sacred Death Care. In this episode of the Next Level Soul Podcast, she talks about the energetic architecture of dying, deathbed phenomena, the archetype of the Death Walker, and why ritual can be medicine for the soul before and after a death.
Key Takeaways
- Sarah believes there is an energetic architecture to how body and soul separate at death.
- She teaches a map for the journey so families know what to expect, physically and spiritually.
- Deathbed phenomena can be subtle on the outside and deeply emotional on the inside.
- She says rituals help us move through rites of passage, and that a funeral can serve the person who died as well as the living.
- Her advice: line up your soul gift with your work, and let ritual carry the intention.
Who Is Sarah Kerr?
On today’s episode, we welcome Sarah Kerr, a death doula and sacred death care guide whose work through the Center for Sacred Death Care helps people and families navigate dying, grief and the rituals that surround death.
Sarah opens with a statement that sets the tone: she believes there is an underlying energetic architecture to how people die, to how body and soul separate, and to what happens after the soul leaves the body. She even describes feeling people when they die, including a hand on her shoulder and a little push.
Is the Funeral for the Living or for the Dead?
That question runs through the whole conversation. Sarah explains that a funeral is a ritual, and that rituals can support the person who has died as well as the people left behind.
She shares a story of a family worried about someone who had died in a difficult state. A Buddhist priest performed a traditional ritual in which the family took part, and Sarah describes it as finding the person, reassuring them and sending them off. She adds that this kind of work can be done even if someone died thirty years ago.
Crossing the River: A Map for the Journey
Sarah talks about the river as an image for the passage of death, and notes how many traditions use water in this way. In her training, she teaches students to become sacred death care guides, helping families read what may be happening at a soul level and which ritual might help.
Just as important is the map itself. Sarah says that when we have a framework for where we are going, death feels less like the lights going out and less frightening. She shares that framework with her clients so they know what to expect, not only physically, but also what kinds of experiences may arise.
Deathbed Phenomena and Signs From Loved Ones
Many families notice things at the bedside that they do not know how to name. Sarah says these experiences can be subtle on the outside but deep and emotional on the inside, such as someone saying they think their grandmother came to the room last night.
Part of her work is to validate them. She also shares a community ritual to support the dead who have not crossed, where people who dream of a stuck parent or sense unfinished business can be helped to bring that experience into the open.
The Death Walker and the Gift of This Work
Sarah describes an archetype she calls the Death Walker: a person who feels called to this work, is not afraid of death, and is the one in the family who shows up when someone dies. Others may find them a bit unusual, and she says that was definitely true of her.
She shares a dream about someone close to her who spent seven years immobilized in a long-term care center. In the dream, she says, it was clear that his suffering was a factor in giving her an apprenticeship for this work, though he also had his own soul learning to do.
Her wider message is gentle. Everyone comes into the world with gifts, and when people line up their soul gift with their work, something meaningful opens.
Ritual as Medicine for the Soul
Sarah explains that we move through life by rites of passage, and that ritual is how we mark and complete them. Her view is that souls come into bodies and leave them again, and that each turn around the wheel is another chance to learn.
In her words, ritual is medicine for the soul, the same way physical medicine serves the body. A ritual works when the intention is clear and the gestures match it, from a bedside ritual after someone dies to the way you say goodbye to a home you shared with a spouse.
She also reminds practitioners about boundaries. Anyone who works this way needs clear gates, open when appropriate and closed when needed.
Spiritual Takeaways
- Say what matters while there is still time. Gratitude, love and forgiveness shared before a death can stay with us afterward.
- Ritual gives emotion a place to move. Personal ceremonies, spiritual or secular, can help you honor endings and navigate change.
- Community is one of our greatest preparations for death. The relationships you nurture now can steady you when you or someone you love approaches the end.
Please enjoy my conversation with Sarah Kerr.
Guest Links: Connect With Sarah Kerr
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Sarah Kerr?
Sarah Kerr is a death doula and sacred death care guide who works through the Center for Sacred Death Care. She supports people and families through dying, grief and the rituals around death, and trains others to become sacred death care guides.
What are deathbed phenomena?
Deathbed phenomena are the experiences people and families report around dying, such as sensing a loved one in the room. Sarah says they can be subtle on the outside but deeply emotional on the inside, and she helps families validate them.
Is a funeral for the living or for the dead?
Sarah says a funeral is a ritual that can serve the person who has died as well as the family. She describes how a traditional ritual can reassure someone who has died and help send them off.
What is a Death Walker?
The Death Walker is an archetype Sarah teaches about: a sensitive person who is not afraid of death and is often the one who shows up when someone dies. She says she recognized herself in it.
Why does ritual matter at the end of life?
Sarah calls ritual medicine for the soul. She says it helps us move through transitions and rites of passage, and that its power comes from lining up clear intention with meaningful gestures.
Where can I learn more about Sarah Kerr?
Visit the Center for Sacred Death Care at sacreddeathcare.com, find Sarah on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram, or watch her episode on Next Level Soul TV.
Keep Exploring
- Watch Julie Ryan’s Free Masterclass on the soul’s journey home: Julie Ryan: The Soul’s Journey Home
- More on the end of life: The End of Life with Death Doula Dr. Martha Jo Atkins
- Consciousness beyond the body: Dr. Eben Alexander on NDEs and the True Nature of Reality
- Go wider with our guide to reincarnation
Follow Along with the Transcript
Alex Ferrari 0:00
Serious illness and death initiatory. Can you explain what that means?
Sarah Kerr 0:04
There's an underlying energetic architecture to how people die, to how body and soul separate, to what happens after the soul leaves the body. When they die, I feel them. It's a very physical sensation. I feel them put their hand on my shoulder, a little push as they die, because death is just the lights going out. It's really scary. Is the funeral for the living or for the dead?
Alex Ferrari 0:30
So the funeral is a signal to the soul, because it's a. I imagine when we all go through this, it's a fairly confusing scenario. We've had this meat suit on for quite some time,
Sarah Kerr 0:39
And I think there are two interesting points...
Alex Ferrari 0:51
I'd like to welcome to the show Sarah Kerr. How you doing, Sarah?
Sarah Kerr 0:54
Hey, Alex. I'm really doing well. Thanks for having me.
Alex Ferrari 0:57
Thank you for coming on the show. We're going to have this no pressure, but a really needed conversation. It's a conversation that many people avoid, and for good reason. Nobody wants to think about it, but you are a death, a quote unquote death doula, correct?
Sarah Kerr 1:13
I am a death doula, and also a sacred death care guide.
Alex Ferrari 1:16
Oh, I definitely want to go down that road. I want to definitely go down in that world as well. It is something that is, I think, a very needed conversation, and it's something that most people rather not talk about. I mean, I rather not talk about the day I'm leading. I like I joke all the time. Everybody wants to go to heaven, just not right now, which is this is very very true. But it's something that all of us have to deal with, and usually we're dealing with it with our loved ones first, or a friend, or a loved one, or something along those lines, and that's the first time we see it. So, tell me what what got you in this amazing field of being a teffdullah and a sacred death, sacred care guide,
Sarah Kerr 2:00
Care guide.
Alex Ferrari 2:01
Yes, yes, yes.
Sarah Kerr 2:03
You know, I came at it from a couple of different places. At one, I've always been very sensitive. I've been sensitive to things that other people don't see. Like, like I imagine many of the people listening. It's the world is very full and busy for me. There is a lot going on, and so I've been attuned to these other experiences all my life, and then about 17 years ago, maybe my dad had a stroke, and so that was really the first experience for me. And he had a terrible stroke, and he lived for a while. And but that that was first a social death, and then his actual death. So that was a real transformational journey for me. I had never had that. I was in my late 30s, had really never met or met that experience of a close loved one dying, so that made me realize how ill prepared I was and how much he needed not only the medical and physical support, of course, but he needed soul support. He was really struggling with where am I going, what is happening, what am I doing, and he was a he had a Ph.D. in geology. I mean, he studied rocks. He was so material and of this world. And then suddenly, he was laid low in a long-term care facility, thinking about where he was going, and he didn't have any map. And so I really thought, okay, there's there's something that's needed here. He's going to need this. Other people in my life are going to need this. I'm going to need this, and I really made this big shift and made this my life's work. It fit with a lot of other experiences and this sensitivity to the other world. So the work I do at the Center for Sacred Death Care is really about meeting death from the perspective that all the things you talk about on your show, the non ordinary experiences, the spiritual experiences, the energetic experiences-that those are real. And then, how then do we meet death from that perspective?
Alex Ferrari 3:48
So, people who watch the show and have really done a lot of their own soul seeking throughout their life-you know-I feel very comfortable with-and I can't say I'm saying it very nicely now from this point of view. I'm like, I'm very comfortable with death. I'm not afraid of it. I don't want to go right now. I feel I have a lot of work to do, and I want to see my kids grow up and all that kind of good stuff. But I'm not terrified by it. I'm not scared by it. I have a framework that makes me feel very comfortable about the transition. From what I've experienced, from what I've seen, from the mystical things that have happened to me in my own life, and then just from talking to over 200 near-death experiencers as well, going through it. So I have a, I have a really, I feel a strong framework within my own life. Now I haven't been tested yet, so it's all talky talky until you're ready there at the door. But generally speaking, I feel that I'm much more prepared for it than I was five years ago or 10 years ago before I started doing this work. I can't imagine someone who is either one raised in a fear-based religion, whichever that one might be, or two studied rocks their entire life. And have no concept of anything metaphysical, soul-related, spiritual at all. It must be terrifying in those two extremes. How do you? Well, first of all, do you find the same thing? And secondly, how do you? How did you help your father? Kind of go, if you don't mind me asking. How did you help your father through that transition because he was kind of the template I assumed for you, for all the work you do.
Sarah Kerr 5:26
So many interesting things you've named there. It is, you know, the people you name people who were raised in a fear-based religion and people who have no template. The people I often work with are another group in there. People who see there's a different framework, and I love the way you use the word framework. I often use the word map. It's a kind of conceptual framing that says this is where I'm going because death is just the lights going out. It's really scary if we don't know where we're going. If we don't know how to do something, it's more frightening. If we have a pathway we can imagine, and so the people I often work with are people who have a framework. They they have a sense that soul continues. They know that death is a transformational journey. It's a it's a kind of initiation for the dying person. The living people are going through their own transformational journey. They know there's soul transformation in there, and they they are right right in there with us. That life goes on. That there's another side, and that their their loved one continues. But they don't know how. They have a framework, often maybe not even articulated, but they don't know how. So that's kind of the frame. and And I think, I think in a way, my dad was a little bit that he was he was a very he was a very true scientist in that he was open to what the evidence showed him. You know, there's a kind of science which says, well, this can't happen, so I won't believe it. But he was like, well, if this if this is what the evidence is showing, I will proceed. And so what we did was a lot of a lot of ritual work. Really, ritual is at the heart of what I do because when we're alive, body and soul are together, and when we die, whether that's over time or quickly, body and soul separate. The medical system, thank goodness, supports our body. Our soul needs a different kind of medicine, and ritual is the medicine for our soul. So we did a lot of ritual work around saying goodbye, around connecting with his ancestors. I built him a beautiful altar beside his bed that had three layers and two layers. I guess the first one was all the people who died, pictures of his ancestors, funeral programs from people who died. This was the village of the ancestors, and then there was a second layer, which were all the people who were still alive, all our family, all his friends, to help him kind of orient. Oh, this is who I'm leaving. This is who I'm going to, and so he would align with that. So a lot of ritual work, saying goodbye with his friends, helping him adjust energetically and internally to this big transition he was going through.
Alex Ferrari 8:06
The the the film Coco, which I'm sure you've seen.
Sarah Kerr 8:11
I have not actually seen the film Coco.
Alex Ferrari 8:12
Oh my God!
Sarah Kerr 8:14
I'm not a big film watcher.
Alex Ferrari 8:16
Okay, so first of all, so you have to watch the film Coco because it talks about the Day of the Dead, the Mexican the the Mexican idea and framework of once once a year you put all your ancestors up on the altar and then for that one day they're allowed to come back and visit you and that's the day of the day and then you go and you celebrate and there's a party and you just feel that the all your ancestors are there. That framework is so beautiful because it gives you a absolute map. Do you understand that, like, you know, Grandma Coco, who is the you know the the namesake of the movie, she's going to be there with me even after she passes. And I'm not sure if you've experienced this too. I come from a Latino background, and in the Latino culture, is there is a lot of that, the metaphysical, the spiritual. It's in you know the psychics, the mediums. All that stuff is really in our blood. So there is a much better understanding. Where I find in the West, it's not that. It's either fear-based religions or I got nothing. Is that what you found as well? Yes.
Sarah Kerr 9:20
Yes, and my ancestry is Celtic, Scottish, and Irish everywhere back. And of course, Halloween is the same thing in the Celtic traditions, but we are more distant from it, or at least certainly I am, and many people in my world, certainly in North America, we've lost our connection. So I'm always a little envious of people like you who are still in active traditions that have that as part of the lived experience, it's a it's really lost more in the in the dominant materialist West. So absolutely, people people say, I know this is sacred, but but I don't know what that means, and I don't know how to do it. I know it's something because. They have this inner. I mean, it's the inner intuition we all have this in our soul, but they don't know what it means or how to proceed, and and that's where we help. That's where I help is the actual pragmatic rituals.
Alex Ferrari 10:14
Now I want to go back to your father one more time, if you don't mind me, because I think this is really it's really important. I feel that people. I want to hear what you went through because it was the beginning. It's your origin story. It's it's it really is the origin story of your work. In many ways, from my point of view, from the spiritual perspective, I believe that he gave you that gift because without that experience, you wouldn't be doing the work and helping so many souls around the world. Is that fair to say?
Sarah Kerr 10:41
I had a dream in which he came to me and said,
Alex Ferrari 10:44
Oh, I'm getting chills. Oh, I'm getting chills. Oh, really?
Sarah Kerr 10:48
It was a heartbreak because he was seven years immobilized on a bed in the long-term care center, very alert, very alert, and that he went through all of that. And in the dream, it was very clear this was not the only reason. He had his own soul development and learning journey to do, but it was a factor. Was that he knew that this was my gift, and he knew that if he gave me this, this would be my apprenticeship. So he absolutely nailed it. I get goosebumps.
Alex Ferrari 11:18
I'm like, oh, I'm getting all sorts of chills talking about that, and so what? What did sitting by your father as he was going through this process show you that no book ever could?
Sarah Kerr 11:32
You know, I really devoted myself to supporting him. I remember he died. He had the stroke. He had the stroke, big surprise. Living in California, flew back to Canada. You know, we kind of spent a month or so getting everything. My mom and my family getting. We all got organized again, and then I went home. And it took me about six months before I was even through my own grief. I was just so devastated by just this massive shift in our family. And I was walking down the street, and I can remember I was living in Oakland, and I can remember exactly the street I was walking on, and exactly the place I was walking. When it suddenly clicked, and I had this thought that he needs soul help, and I am the only one in his life that can do that. I don't know exactly how to do it, but I'm the one, and so I began that journey, and I was learning about ritual. I was practicing spring ritual. I was in school at the time. I was doing my PhD in ritual, so I was in the zone. I was right up, right up immersion on a ritual, and so I just began working with him and doing these rituals. And what happened was, I started to dream, and I had always been a big dreamer. But I started to dream, and I would say, for a year, a year and a half, I dreamt of ancestors in my father's family line three times a week. Never once in that year and a half did my mum's line come in. Who I've dreamed-I've had lots of dreams about my mum's line-but for a year and a half, while I was really in this with him. I really was clear that the ancestors were with me, and I did things. Some of them were really ritual based. Some of them were very, on the outside, very pragmatic. I found a woman who was a social worker, who also was a what did she call herself? A family historian or something. Anyway, she interviewed him. I gave a bunch of photos of his life. It was very well photographed life. He had lots of amazing experiences, and I said, you know, I think here and here and here were some places in his life that are kind of unresolved. So I had her interview him, ostensibly for this book that we created of the photos, but at this point, and this point, and this point, I said, just go deeper. And so she did a little therapy with him and helped him process that. I was trying to help him really unburden what he needed to let go before he left. Then we did a big, beautiful goodbye ritual, where we had we did two. We did one with family and one with his friends, where I invited each person to bring a gift no larger than an inch in any direction, and we went around the circle, and it was a gift for him to go in his canoe to cross the river to go to the village of the ancestors, and so people went around and they had these very concentrated, very symbolic, very highly thought-out gifts because it's small. They weren't expensive. They were, you know, a seed, no, or just these tiny things. And people went around and they got to say goodbye, and he got to hear what people often only hear at their funerals, which is how much he was loved.
Alex Ferrari 14:37
That is so beautiful. And you're right. We always wait to after they're gone to say how you truly feel about it. This ritual is so beautiful, and I think I hope anybody listening can incorporate this in one way, shape, or form into that process because it's so it's so beautiful and so powerful. Now you talk about something called the sensing sensing the spiritual dynamics of death. What is that actually? What is that actually like in the body? It's a very broad, broad concept.
Sarah Kerr 15:08
Well, you know, I think it it goes back to what you mentioned earlier about framework, that there is a there's an underlying energetic architecture to how people die, to how body and soul separate, to what happens after the soul leaves the body, to how the soul begins the journey across the river, to how the soul is received on the other side of the river. That this and I use this image of the village of the living, the village of the ancestors, and a river between.
Alex Ferrari 15:38
The river sticks. The river sticks, if you will,
Sarah Kerr 15:41
The river sticks. Of course, so many places and traditions have water as its images. So it's very transcultural, and so when we understand that journey, then we can. And this is what I offer my training. I teach my my students this: how to be sacred death care guides, how to guide people on that journey. So to be looking at a family and working with a family and a dying person and seeing a certain set of dynamics, saying, "Oh, this is a sign that this is happening at a soul level, and this is the kind of ritual that would help release this. So a little bit like in physical medicine, we understand that you know, if your temperature goes up or your blood pressure goes down, there are signs, and then there are interventions. We need this. You need this pill. You need that. At the soul level, we start to recognize. Oh, if this is happening, this is a sign that something's moving too fast, and we need to back up and resolve what happened here so they can move forward. And a classic example of this, I work with people before, during, and after the death. So we really have this framework in the Center for Sacred Death Care that the veil is is transparent. It's just a flow right through, and we we wouldn't stop right at the last breath, but there is something incredibly important, of course, that happens at the last breath. That's the last. That's the end of your physical connection with the person. And when I work with people who are grieving after a death, I often say to them, "What happened right at the last breath? Did you spend time with their body. What kind of container was there? Was was it rushed? Were were people like what was happening? And did you have time to integrate? Because part of this soul's map is that our soul moves more slowly than the body. Someone takes their last breath. Even if this happened with my dad, I knew he was dying. I I I was this far from him when he took his last breath, and I was still shocked and surprised. We know it's coming. We're prepared. We are still shocked and surprised. So at a at a soul level, we need to support that shock. And so, if I'm working with the family in the moment, I know oh at this moment, we need time, so I have this whole extended, sometimes four or five hour ritual we do after the last breath, before the family leads the body, because often people, someone dies, I don't know what, what I guess, I guess we call a funeral home. I guess we go home, but they need space, and so after the death, when I'm working with someone who's grieving, I'll say, "What happened after their last breath? And if they didn't get that space, I know that they probably can't move forward with their grieving because they are still kind of stuck back there. It's almost a trauma pattern. So we'll do those rituals after the fact. We can, I call it a proxy body ritual. We redo that last breath moment, so people get to do what they missed, and it allows something to loosen in the soul, and they can let go of that that jerking surprise experience and move with some fluidity into the next stage of their grieving, and the next, in the next.
Alex Ferrari 19:01
One thing I've noticed that I've spoken to a few death doulas, and and I call that, for lack of a better word, if you want to be referred to as something else, it's fine. But people who help in the death transition, whether they be palliative care nurses or end of life nurses or hospice nurses, those kind of people. I've I've yet to run into one. I'm sure they're out there, but I've yet to run into one that is strictly material. That she's a materialist or he's a materialist. There's a something that happens through this process that is so undeniable to the soul that if you do it again and again, you just can't deny what's happening in the room. And I find that that stage one is like, yeah, there's something else. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to help them through it. Then you go to all the way to the other line on. Like I had a shared death experience. I'm going through the light with them, all that kind of stuff, and everything in between. From your experiences, first of all, do what's like some of the most beautiful stories you might want to share with that you've been that you've seen with other of your clients or people you've been in the room who've been in the room, and they've sensed something, they felt something, they saw something. Maybe to share death experience. Maybe they just felt energy. Maybe they just felt relief. Maybe they heard something. I'm just curious if there's anything like that that you've gone down.
Sarah Kerr 20:33
So back to this idea of framework. I what I teach my clients is this framework. This is what you can expect, not only physically, but I teach people about deathbed phenomena. This might start to happen. You might have this experience. You might have this experience. They can be, as you sure you know, they can be quite subtle on the outside, but really deep and emotional on the inside. And people say, "I think my grandmother came to my room last night, and so I really help them validate that. Like, yes, your grandmother came to your room. We are going to take that at face value. So when I work with client families, I really build a culture where this is normalized. And what I find is when I help people build a culture where everybody talks about it and it's normal, it happens more because when there's no space for it, people I just I must have been making that they diminish, but so and I think one woman in particular who was in her mid 40s. She was dying of thyroid cancer, and she was she was very alert. I mean, she was playing crib the day before she died. She was incapacitated, but she was awake and alert. And for the week before she died, and it only happened when she was playing crib, and her grandmother was an incredible crib player. As she was playing crib with her kids, with her friends, she would start to hear music coming out of her cell phone that no one else heard, and it was very pragmatic. She said sometimes it was classical, sometimes it was like African acapella, and it was it was coming out, and she could talk about it. Didn't weird out the people she was talking about it, and it got richer and richer. So things like that. That how does that happen? She was attuned to something, and she really connected it to her grandmother, who was like she imagined reaching across from the other side to say hello, to be ready to carry her across, people have really powerful dreams. They see things when the body, you know, see things leave the body when the last breath happens.
Alex Ferrari 22:31
Is there anything? Have you heard of the shared death experience phenomenon?
Sarah Kerr 22:34
Yes, yes, yes.
Alex Ferrari 22:36
Have you, have you? I'm sure you have. Have you experienced anything like that, or have any of your clients experienced anything like that.
Sarah Kerr 22:41
You know, I have. I'm not usually there at the death. Of course, you don't have to be. Not. I've certainly had. I've. I've had dream visitations from clients for sure. Not in the shared death experience. Some of those other ways. And I, for me, that's actually quite validating. It's validating for my students because you can do this without having had those experiences. Sometimes people feel like, "Ooh, I need to have those experiences, and I haven't, just to to be with this process. the The movements people make, and really the people that really come to me a lot are people who are practitioners, like you talked about, hospice nurses who have been having those all their life, and they, you know, I I worked with a client, a funeral director, who said, "I get home, and my clients, the the people I've involved, are still in the room with me. And we did some research, like we did some ritual work and exploring, and it was clear that she was the last person who had been kind to some of these people, and they were in that in between zone, and they're like, "Whoa, this my life's been a little hard, but this person's really nice. I'm going to go home with her. So I often help people untangle those experiences, or a chaplain I worked with, who she said, "You know what? I'm really aligned with my clients. When they die, I feel them. It's a very physical sensation. I feel them put their hand on my shoulder, get a little push as they die. I've been helping them, and they just push me out. She said, "My training did not cover this. What does this mean? What do I do with it? So that's where I'm working with lots of people, people who have had profound multi-day. I had a woman not long ago talk about this multi-day shared death experience, where she was in and with both the person who was dying and his brother who had died a year before, helping him. He had been a terrible accident. Helping him untangle from this world, connect to his brother. She was she was really this the word I use a lot is psychopomp psyche is soul pomp is guide it's this guiding the soul across so people who are often helping on that journey and who often have naturally been helpers on that journey but haven't known how to. Tell anybody about that. They think, "Am I weird? Does anybody else do this? Is this okay? Is this wrong? Or often they haven't. They have this innate skill, but they haven't really figured out how to put it into place. Maybe you are naturally musically talented, but if you learn, if you learn to play an instrument, you can structure it, and so I help them kind of structure it, understand boundaries, understand consent, permission, ethics around it all.
Alex Ferrari 25:31
I want to ask you this: What is the effect on the soul of people who do this kind of work? Because You're experiencing energies, experiences, connections that a human, a normal human, going through this experience, or even a normal soul going through this experience of this insanity that we call life, doesn't get to a doesn't get affected. So, you know, I'll just use myself an example. I speak to people like yourself, and all sorts of different mystics and psychics and mediums and channels and all these kinds of different gurus and things. Most human beings are not going to have 2000 conversations with these kinds of souls. So it has affected me just on my own journey, it's affected me in my own soul, my own abilities, my own sensitivities. I have to imagine after you you help 700 souls across, or 1000 souls across, or some I know one that did 2500. He volunteers and he's a near death experiencer. Did 2500 crossings. That has to affect you in a way. What's your experience personally, and what have you heard from others?
Sarah Kerr 26:48
You know, I talk a lot about what I call the archetype of the Death Walker, which is this pattern in some people who are called to this work. They are sensitive. They have these experiences. They feel this. They just know something about death. They're not afraid of death. They're the people in their families who are the ones who show up when someone dies. They just know they're death walkers. And as you say, they're not kind of normal people. Other people think that's a bit weird. And and that was definitely me. And as I began this process with my dad, I also didn't know what to do with it, and I didn't know. I was kind of maybe embarrassed to talk about it in certain situations. I I knew that you know this isn't what's talked about in public. You keep talk about this in these other special spaces, and what's happened for me is it has just been such a consistent and constant demonstration that this is true, that the veil is thin, that it lifts, that people cross, that the ancestors are there, that it's become I say as real as rocks. The world is just bigger. There's there's a little box that we often keep things in that says this is ordinary and then we say oh this is non ordinary or extrasensory or supernatural. That box is kind of blown up for me. It's all real, and the an experience is experience. Your grandmother talks to you. You had a hamburger. Those are kind of on the same level of experience, and it's so validating. Just say this is normal, and to be able to talk about it, and just say yeah, like as exactly as you do, and the people who come on this call, and so that's a huge part of what happens. I think is it's coming into what's really has been true in my soul. This was real for me, but I thought I was too sensitive, and I thought I was too weird, and people wouldn't get it. And you know, I judged myself a lot for these capacities that I had and these experiences that I had. And same thing absolutely happens with my students and my clients that they have been, they've had these experiences, they've had these feelings, but they don't have a framework for what to do, they want to serve dying people. They know that the world is bigger. They know that the journey is bigger, but they don't have a framework, and so they get a framework, and they have this like, oh my God! Suddenly, I make sense to myself. These things that I thought were flaws or problems in me-they're actually my superpowers, and these things that I kind of kept hidden, people tease me because I was always curious about death. Well, they come and they join a class, they join a community. They're part of an experience. They realize, oh my God, I found my people. I'm not weird. This is actually important. So it's a very big coming home for people into the reality that's always been true for them.
Alex Ferrari 29:40
So you're basically pulling curtain back a little bit on what is really there. It's always been there. Now we just are able to perceive it a bit more.
Sarah Kerr 29:48
Yeah, absolutely.
Alex Ferrari 29:48
And I'm assuming with every one of these experiences, that curtain opened a bit more and a bit more and a bit more. So now it's completely wide open. Do you get surprised anymore?
Sarah Kerr 29:58
Oh, all the time. All the time, you know. I and one of the rituals I do is a kind of community-based ritual where we support the dead who haven't crossed. So people will come and they'll say, "Oh, you know, I've been having dreams of my mom. She feels like she's stuck, or, or my father died by, and I I really feel like there's some unfinished business, and he might need some help. So we do a ritual process with that, where we essentially invoke these experiences in the space, and it's incredible. The, I mean, I guess that it happens doesn't surprise me, but the depth of what happens and how the ancestors show up and the incredible love and support they have for us, and how when we create this ritual space and when we set these parameters around how to do it, what comes in, and the solutions, and how things resolve that we never could have imagined. It says we are not making this up because none of us could have thought of this. There's something bigger directing this. There's something bigger at play that is just moving towards healing and love.
Alex Ferrari 31:17
Now you say something regarding something called initiator, initiate, initiate, initiate. Thank you. That's the way initiatory that you call serious illness and death initiatory. Can you explain what that means?
Sarah Kerr 31:33
All through our lives, we have things that end and things that begin, and and there are big stages in our lives, where something really big ends and something really big begins, and that that initiation is the is the traditional ritual practice for helping people navigate the end of a really big thing and the beginning of something new, and so death and loss and grief are initiations not only for the person who's dying, but for the person who's alive. So, you know, traditional culture might have an initiation ritual like there's a Latina one when girls are 15. What's that called? That they
Alex Ferrari 32:17
That would be quinceanera, quinceañera,
Sarah Kerr 32:18
Quinceñeta. So they have a quinceañera. So
Alex Ferrari 32:21
Or sweet 16, a sweet 16,
Sarah Kerr 32:22
Exactly, exactly. That's in it, and or a bar mitzvah. That's saying you were a child, now you're an adult, right? And so we mark this. It's there's an outside change, but there's the ritual helps the soul inside change. So you're working, you retire, you're single, you get married. We have these transitions in our life, and in those range of transitions, is you are married to someone who's alive, and now they're dead. Right? You lose a spouse, you lose a child, you go through your own journey of transformative loss with a big illness. It's like this sense of the door opens, you get pushed through, and the door closes again, and you can never go back to where you were. So those are initiations, and thinking about death as an initiation for the person who's died-that they have been on this side of the river, they're dying, they're going to essentially go through the door and cross to that side of the river, initiation rituals help our soul do that. So to say, you're dying to this life, but you're being born to that life. And how do we support that? And of course, for the die, for the grieving, it's the same. Who you were when the person you loved was alive, you're not that person anymore. You need to die to the old version of you, and allow the new version of you to be born, and that takes time. You have to let go of all the things. Well, we used to have breakfast together, and now we'd go on holidays together, and when I needed help with this, she'd help me, or he'd help me. All the things that we have to say goodbye to when someone dies, all the secondary losses. So we have to say goodbye to all those things, and then we have to slowly grow into a new version of ourselves. So after someone has really been through, I call it an initiatory journey after death. They are someone new, and it's often this experience they kind of get to the end and they sort of peek up, and then they go, "Okay, I think I'm back. I went through this great journey, but now I'm back. And they come back with gifts and skills because they've been transformed by that journey. If they if they have the support to do it, some people it's just no supporter is too hard, and they kind of skip it. Doesn't work. If you want the skills and healing and integration, you got to go through that down and up. They come back and they, like near death experiences, have had a huge initiation. They come back, they have something to offer. They are changed, and they are changed in service of their community.
Alex Ferrari 35:00
It's the hero's journey. You're coming back with the elixir.
Sarah Kerr 35:02
Absolutely, yeah. You lose. You fight the dragons, and you sail away. Fight the dragons, and you come home. It takes time.
Alex Ferrari 35:10
It takes time, and you have to you have to be willing to fight the dragons. You have to be willing to walk the journey, and that's where the gifts are at the end of it. That's the reward, and then you come back and you share what you've learned. That's humanity. That's what we've been doing since we've been walking around this this little rock that's been floating around in space for so many years.
Sarah Kerr 35:30
But I think often we don't realize that when we talk about initiation, we talk about a rite of passage, and a rite of passage is ritual. So we actually need rituals to help us do each of those things, and it's rituals that can support us. A ritual at the deathbed after someone dies can help you make that transition. Right? A funeral is a ritual. These rituals are what allow us to move through the initiation. We just try and go from they're gone to I'm on the other side doesn't help doesn't work. We need to go through it, but absolutely the rituals help us be with the experiences.
Alex Ferrari 36:06
So I'm not sure if you saw the Odyssey. Doesn't sound like you might have seen the Odyssey. I'm not surprised. You have to watch.
Sarah Kerr 36:13
I have to see. I'll add it to my list.
Alex Ferrari 36:14
Please, you have to watch. And but you know the story, obviously, of the Odyssey. Yes. So the big thing with them is that you know in battle if if a soldier falls you know it needs to be they need to be given a proper barrier barrier a burial and if it's not they're they're doomed their soul is doomed to walk through Hades forever so they have to be properly done that ritual I mean to the point where Ulysses Ulysses yeah yeah Ulysses Ulysses, yeah, yeah, Ulysses, right? He has to actually go back and try to create a ritual for those souls, but it is more for, I, I mean, that's a more mystical aspect of it, and in that mythology, but I feel it's more for him as a character to go through that because he needs to bury them all so he can move on. So that that that process of the funeral is so important, and that's why when people are lost in ways that they can't bury them, can't say goodbye. You know, something happened; they got you know lost or in war or something like that, and there is no, there's no ritual. How do you deal with that as someone who might be going through it? Or if you have a client that like, look, my my parents died in an airplane crash, or and they've lost. We can't sit. There's no way to. There's nothing to spit. There's nothing to bury. There's no. How do you work with that kind of scenario? And have you worked with that kind of scenario?
Sarah Kerr 37:44
I have, and I think there are two interesting points. There is the funeral for the living or for the dead, and so I'll ask that first, and then I'll tell you a story about a no-body experience. Yeah. So, to my mind, it is very definitely for both. People die; they slip out of their body. Body and soul separate. Most people get across the river fine, but there are people who don't get across. And shamanic practitioners understand this. Lots of people understand this. I had a client who was a he was an oncologist, also very materialistly focused, but also very open to this. His father, his father was dying. His father did not want to be there when he died, and his father said, "If I can't walk 500 meters, I want medical assistance in dying. This is available in Canada. This is essentially it's a euthanizing process where you you get the medicine, a doctor supports it, you have this beautiful peaceful death. And he said, if if I don't get maid, I'm going to jump off my patio, off my balcony. So his family was like, okay, you don't want to get old, you don't want to miss your death. Like he just didn't want to be there for any of it. So he set up maid wasn't wouldn't talk about his death. He was joking. He joked all the way to the end. He wouldn't let them have a funeral. Basically, he was so afraid of dying and of what might happen that he he really wouldn't let it happen. He thought, "I just I just won't do it. I'll just have maid. So he dies two days later. My client, the oncologist, the windows start flapping in his house. The lights start going on and off. There's, you know, the dog's hair is standing on end. All these phenomena start happening, and so he says to a friend of his, who's a Buddhist priest, "What do we? What's going on? And the Buddhist priest says, "Oh, it's simple. Your father hasn't crossed. So, and he didn't want a funeral, so the funeral is often what helps people cross.
Alex Ferrari 39:47
Is it because it signals to the soul that because a ghost, quote unquote, a ghost is someone a spirit that decided a soul decided not to leave. That's what I've understood, or doesn't know that it's passed. Yes, it's the big thing. So the funeral is a signal to the soul because it's a. I imagine when we all go through this, it's a fairly confusing scenario. We've had this meat suit on for quite some time. This is our reality, and all of a sudden you're like, wait a minute, I don't have this anymore. Like it's being basically thrown into a, you know, a cold pool. Like you're like, whoa, everything is different now, and if you don't have, and that's why spirits, like ancestors, show up, and angels show up, and sometimes deities show up to guide you. Hey, come this way! Come this way. There's a light. Come this way. Is that what you found as well?
Sarah Kerr 40:32
Yes, and that if people if they work with me, they are well prepared, right? That's what the rituals before they prepare people, but there's sudden death, and people aren't prepared. So there are lots of reasons people die and don't cross, or don't fully cross. And the funeral, I would say, it signals, but it's more than that. A ritual is a ritual is as real as rocks. What we do in ritual is we work with the energetic dynamics, and we actually change things. We we we find the person, we help them get aligned, and we you know we put our hands on the stern of the canoe, we push them across, and we let go. That's what a funeral is supposed to do. Supposed to send you across. So it's not just conceptual. We actually send them, and so he didn't have a funeral, and he didn't. He was not only did he didn't have a funeral, but he was really not present to his dying pride. He really didn't want to die. He was just, you know, sometimes people are afraid of who they'll meet on the other side.
Alex Ferrari 41:39
Based on their based on their framework, based on their
Sarah Kerr 41:41
Or yeah, they're they're afraid they'll meet their abuser. Wasn't well, actually, it's not how it works. It's fine over there. Everything's we know this. So this Buddhist priest came and said, "We'll do a ritual. So he did a traditional Buddhist ritual that involved you know the family being involved, and essentially it was essentially the same thing that a funeral does. They sent him off. They found him. They reassured him, and they sent him off. So a funeral absolutely serves the dying, and especially if the death has been sudden and unexpected. There are lots of reasons that people get stuck, or parts people get partly stuck. And I think you asked about not having a body. I worked with a family where the there was a man. He was in his mid 40s. He had two young children, and he'd struggled with substance issues all his life. And he, we don't, they didn't know whether it was an overdose or a suicide. But his body was found in his house five days after he died, and there's just no way to be present with the body. It was so decomposed, but it was such a shock to the family, which is why the moments after the last breath, when you spend time, help you come to terms with the fact that he was gone. So we did a beautiful ritual. I spent probably five days almost embedded with his family, I was there several hours a day. There was a whole extended family in the house just processing. And one of the things we did was we got people maybe have seen them. It's a cardboard cremation casket, so it's a it's actually like a big shoebox shaped like a like a casket, which is what bodies are cremated in. So we had one brought to the house, the kids decorated it. They they lined it. They put paint. Everybody painted it. They started to like build his canoe to help him get across. And we we didn't have his body, but we essentially made the casket the energetic proxy for the body. So we went around. We worked for two or three days with this casket. People painted it. They lined it with soft fabric. They they were sending their love towards him and the support that he needed to get across to this casket because they couldn't actually be with his body. We did a ceremony where we had a bunch of flowers and we went around the circle and each person said what they loved about him, what they missed about him, and or anything around forgiveness, people, you know, his girlfriend said, "I don't know if I can forgive you for doing this. She needed to say that in ritual space, right? His kid said, "I love you, I miss you. So we did these rituals, and then rather than say the body going to the crematorium, which is often saying goodbye, it was the closing of the casket. Right, we imbued that with all that energy, and that was our sense of okay, you're going, which is a similar version of what this Buddhist priest did for my friend. You can shift the patterns towards healing by this ritual work.
Alex Ferrari 44:42
So, and it's it's so beautiful that you're saying it's for both. Because I, when I asked the question, I was like, "Oh, it's really for us to process. They're good, but it actually makes a lot of sense that you really need to. And it's energy, isn't it? It's energy and intention is what we're doing here. You know, they
Sarah Kerr 44:58
Absolutely
Alex Ferrari 44:59
They could have died on the other side of the planet, and if you do this ritual for the family, that energy somehow, because we're all connected, make it connects to them, and they understand it, and they're like, "Oh, okay, it's safe for me to to leave.
Sarah Kerr 45:13
They could have died 30 years ago, and we can still do it.
Alex Ferrari 45:18
Right, it's just a a process to let things go. I don't know if you've seen this or not, and it is probably one of the funniest funerals I've ever seen in my entire life. Where it was an Irish funeral in Ireland, if I'm not mistaken, and he-it's-it's so funny because he's being buried. The man who died is being buried, and there's everyone's there in black, and everyone's you know somber, and then all of a sudden they put a speaker in the. There's a speaker inside him. It's like hey, hey, let me out of here! It's cold and it's hot. I can't see anything. I'm alive. Stop Jesus! And and you just see everyone just start just laughing, and release and the the release of that, I was like, oh, that's such a beautiful way to say goodbye. And obviously, was very him because he was probably a jokester, and it just, and everybody's like, well, that makes sense. But it was just so beautiful, and he, and you hear the knocking on the coffin. He did the whole thing. He just like, hey, hey, I'm in there. Stop it! Isn't that beautiful, though? Isn't that a beautiful way to to do it?
Sarah Kerr 46:28
Well, you know what's beautiful is that it was a fitting funeral for him, and that's I think where people struggle around funerals is they've been to funerals that didn't fit the person, and it doesn't feel right. This has to be aligned with your values and aligned with your just your character, and so perfect.
Alex Ferrari 46:45
Exactly. Yeah, I I already have a song that I wanted mine, and I've already told my my my girls about it, and I've already told my family about it, and now my mom unfortunately can't hear the song anymore. I've ruined the song. I won't say what the song is, but every day she's like, "I can't. I turn it off. I can't. I can't. But the song is perfect for me.
Sarah Kerr 47:08
That's such an interesting thing you're doing because, you know, for me and many of the people I work with, we don't have established traditions. You know, in a in a traditional culture, many people still do this. Of course, people would know when you die. This is what happens. This is the song that gets you across. This is the ritual we do. And so we've kind of internalized the map in our head. But you're actually pre-internalizing the map. You are teaching yourself and and your family that when you leave your body and you hear that song, because it is-it's a little confusing. This is why you know all the readings in the Day of the Dead-they help you. You know, the Tibetan Book of the Dead-they help you get oriented. You're teaching yourself that when that song comes on, that's the sign to point yourself across and move. I actually think it's quite a an amazing preparation, Richard.
Alex Ferrari 48:02
I-I just I don't know why I did it. I'm not thinking about it, but it's just like when I heard that's one of my favorite songs of all time. And then when I heard it, I was like, oh, it's perfect. Like if I was at my funeral, I would want this song to be played. It just it just it makes all the sense in the world to me to do it. But it's it's ruined it for my mom. One thing I notice, Sarah, about the people who do the kind of work that you do is there's a level of empathy there that is not a normal level of empathy. Like you are very empathetic to walk into a situation. It's an un-it can be an uncomfortable situation. Someone has just died. There's trauma. There's crying. The energy is a. It can be, if unprepared, a downer. You know, not a fun vibe to be around. Let alone for your own family and your own friends, but to go into strangers' houses and to do this kind of work, I first of all applaud you, because we need human beings and souls like you to do the work that you're doing. But would you agree with that? That in order to do this work, a hospice nurse, something like that, you really have to be at another level of empathy.
Sarah Kerr 49:17
You know, I hear that so often. People say, "Oh, you must be such a good person. You do this work, or you're so amazing. And it's true. It's it's difficult work to do, but I really feel that everybody has a skill. We all come into the world with gifts. I could not do your job. There are 100,000 jobs in the world I could not do because I don't have that skill. And people, I think, really when people can line up their inmate-it's not even a skill; it's a gift. It's a soul gift. When people line up their soul gift and are able to do what they're just wired to do, it's not hard. And so, I think people who are doing this work, certainly from my own experience. My students, it is the thing that feeds us, and this is maybe this is kind of embarrassing. Maybe I shouldn't admit this, but when somebody calls and they say, "Well, somebody's dying or somebody has died, I'm always excited and I really enjoy working. But if they say, "Oh, it was a suicide or it was a murder suicide, or there's no body, or all of the different kind of ways it can be terrible. I get a little excited because for me that is not. I'm not excited for their heartbreak. Of course, I'm. I'm so moved by what's happening, but it's when it's really interesting and I can really go in, and it's real. It's real, real, real, real.
Alex Ferrari 50:44
Well, I understand what you're saying, and and I hope no one misinterpret misinterprets what you're saying. Is like I'm not excited about the the trauma, the what happened, but you're from a a work perspective or a a doing the work kind of I Perspective, it's interesting. So for me, I'll give you an example. I do interviews every day, all the time. But and then sometimes it's like, okay, it's let's just have a conversation. But sometimes it's like, ooh, I've never spoken to someone like that. I've never spoken to this person before. I've never spoken to this kind of person before. This is new to me. This is interesting. I can kind of go and explore. It pushes you and it expands you by doing things that are not the normal everyday kind of thing. So I understand what you mean. You know, I would be surprised.
Sarah Kerr 51:30
Yeah, I think about the surfers who want to surf a really big wave. Like, oh my God, I'm just at the edge of what I can do, but I can do it, and it's it's asking me to be everything I possibly can for these people, it is asking me to dig so deep and just deliver so completely, and it's so exhilarating to be able to do that. So it's the big surfing wave for the death to lose.
Alex Ferrari 51:51
Let me ask you a question, Sarah. You know, you're doing this beautiful work, and I, you know, I in my framework of reality. I do believe in reincarnation. I believe that we're souls here, learning and growing and coming back and different experiences and all of that. Have you ever done any deep dive research into why your soul chose this soul blueprint, this soul path in this life? Because this is specific. Whether it's karmic, meaning that you're like you know I did a whole bunch of other stuff in the other life that was bad, so I gotta. If you want to go down the karmic, that kind of interpretation of karma, or is he like no? This is the kind of work I love doing, and you've done this many times in many lifetimes. You were this person. It's something you enjoy doing, and you just want to come back, kind of like a musician. Musician, you know, plays, but maybe I was a great pianist once, and now I want to be a great guitarist. But it's music, things like that. What have you done any research on that? I'm just fascinated, curious about that.
Sarah Kerr 52:52
I certainly am completely with you. I really have this framework. Again, we talk about maps and frameworks that souls come into bodies and they go out of bodies, and they come into bodies and go out of bodies, and each of those turns around the wheel is a different opportunity to learn. And so, there was something in this time in, and I don't know what caused it and where it came from, but there was something that this is the lesson that I need to learn, and this is the gift I have to give. So those two things are so linked for people that what they're learning, and you know, I went through this experience with my dad that was so hard, and out of it came this beauty. So there's something about this time around. My dreams have been so connected to this. It just, it's so clear to me what to do. But I often could not tell you how I know what to do. I walk into a room and there's a situation, and I just kind of get myself out of the way. I try and be transparent, not well, not exactly transparent because I want to be very solid and stable and clear and present in the room to these people. But I sort of open up the gate energetically. Yeah, I open up the gate and I just say I'm a conduit. What's needed here? Tell me what's needed, and let it come through me. And it's we've talked earlier about being surprised. That is such a cool part of it because I'm so surprised. I never would have said that, or you know. And I say the examples I use. Sometimes it's so small. I'll be talking to someone and helping them kind of prepare for death or integrate after death, and I'll pull up some example, a metaphor that I would never use. Like it was one the other day, I talked to someone, and I used this metaphor around competitive swimming. I don't. It's not something in my world, and he just, his eyes just kind of went. He said, "How did you know my brother was a competitive swimmer? It's like I didn't know he was a competitive swimmer. So these these images that that they start and same thing. I used one a while ago now about skateboarding, and and she said he he loved skateboarding. So that's the world is feeding something to me.
Alex Ferrari 54:57
So that's interesting, and now. Go a little bit more metaphysical on this because, again, from my perspective, what I see happening in those scenarios is that you've become very empathic, and you've become very open to the other side. Obviously, because you're constantly in and out of the veil, so you're you you've actually your veil has thinned to a point where now, and you've intent, and your intention is to open yourself up as a conduit, as you said. Other people would say a channel, but either way, it's a different terminology of information coming through, just like a psychic does, just like a medium does, like a channel does, but in a very different way. And that's intuition too. But you've heightened that skill set to a way that you like, what is needed in this room, and either someone on the other side, whether it be the person who's passed, or whether it be your own higher self, whether it be whatever, is something's coming in. But those are very interesting. That when you say those things, I was like, well, that's a form of mediumship. That's a form of psychic. And I don't want to label that. I'm not calling you either of those things, but there's a form of that empathic ability that is opened up within you, where you start to receive messages for that you would have never. There's no way of you knowing like that he was a swimmer, he was a skateboarder. It's fascinating.
Sarah Kerr 56:15
Oh yeah, it happens all the time, all the time. I'd be just I could give you 1000 that are some that are that little and bigger. It's that I've opened up, but I think more importantly, you know, when I train people, I talk about your medicine body and your stance. And just like a medium or a psychic has to have really clear boundaries, right? The gates are open, the gates are closed. This can come through. This can't come through. Just like the example of the funeral director who had the people follow her home. I had to teach her boundaries. I had to teach her energetic boundaries so that she left her work at work. So I've opened myself, but I've also done a lot of work to ground myself and to structure myself and to kind of structure myself in a certain way around these principles of sacred death care, so that I'm asking for information in a certain way. It's not a wide open call for anything that comes through. It's like I have an intention of what I want to do with these people. Please flow through me exactly what's needed for that. So I think that I've, I've opened myself, but more specifically, I've learned how to focus myself. Like I need this kind of detail. So it's it's a both. It's a surrender, but a containment that says I need this. How am I going to help them? Because I understand this is where they need to go. Because you can get all sorts of interesting, juicy, fascinating things from the other side. But if it's going to be healing, I need to know what needs to happen next. And and all the time I'll say, you know, I have a friend who jokes about it. She says this just in, and it's kind of that. It's like this just in. Sometimes when I'm helping someone design a ritual, I get this download of a ritual that happens so fast and so complete and so extensive. I can see what they're doing. I can see what's happening. I can see how they're moving this. I can see a whole room full of people doing this ritual. I actually have to say to the information that's coming through, "Whoa, just, just don't go away. Just stay there for a sec. I have to finish the what I'm saying to this person and allow it to come through. So it's it's very much about focusing.
Alex Ferrari 58:30
Is there a moment that just like the hey I'm in here let me out kind of moment, which is a is this moment of laughter? Have you been in the room at a afterwards awake or any part of the ritual where laughter was the actual medicine that was needed in the room, and something happened that was just everyone just released the the pressure because the pressure was in the room like oh my god oh my god oh my god and then just something happened that everyone just burst out laughing.
Sarah Kerr 59:01
You know, absolutely, often, often. I don't think I can name the. I'm not a very good joke rememberer, but I can't. I can't tell you how many times that has happened, and it's really it's the value of dark humor. You know. Oh, I know, I know. I mean, it's it's it's the thing about dark humor is it sometimes doesn't translate. So I was working with this family, and they had the body. We kept the body at home, and we cared for it. And they put the the lid on the coffin to make sure it fit, and they left it sitting there for a little while. And they picked it up, and they realized that it had flattened the end of the guy's nose. And it was it was awful in some way, but it was also, you know, what could you do? And and laughing, things about dark humors they don't often translate outside of the situation, but there's so much like energy that needs to move, so much grief that needs to move. So much sadness, so much fear-all these things that need to move-and you're in these really intense, intense situations. That laughter can be such a relief. It just-and-and I often, when I facilitate funerals, I often try and build in both spaces for grief, like deep containment. It's okay to cry when I'm speaking. If I if I really am like pulling the strings, I really want to speak in a way that invites people's grief. It's a space to hold grief, and I want opportunities where people can just totally break out in laughter about something this person did. Laughter and tears together move the energy. We're trying to move this energy of grief through us, and laughter can do an enormous amount for that.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:46
If someone's in in the moment of facing death, what's the one thing that you want them to know before anything else? Either themselves dying or someone is a loved one dying.
Sarah Kerr 1:00:59
Well, there are two things. If people say, "Well, what should I do to prepare for death? And in my experience, the thing that helps you meet death the best is community, is having people around you and having support. So if you can live a life where you build a community, then when you come to your death, you'll be supported. So that's that's the bigger. You can't start that at the end, but the more community we have around each other, the better we are able to meet death. The more people we have to put their hands on the stern of the canoe and push us across, the more ritual containment we can build with more people who love them. If it's a week before and I meet someone who's dying, you know that's they've either got community or they don't. At that point, what I really offer them is this sense that there is something and a validation that there is more, that the veil, the river, is real, that their ancestors are waiting for them, that life is not a light switch that goes out. It's it's like moving to a new neighborhood, and it's this transformation. And I I often frame that in ways of metaphor that people can understand. And and people say, Oh my God, I will never think about death the same way again. I just try and give them just and as much of a map as I can, so they have a sense of where they're going, because it's so scary. I think that's so much of the reason we're afraid of death in dominant culture is we don't know where we're going. So we're and we think we're leaving. We think we're leaving everything and everybody. But if we can reframe and say, no, actually, you're crossing the river. You're going to where everybody else has gone, and they're there waiting for you, and there are opportunities to continue to be in conversation. I often feel like I'm like I don't know, handing someone the roadmap. Just that this is if you don't have anything else, here's where you're going.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:52
Well, Sarah, where can people find out more about you and the amazing work you're doing in the world?
Sarah Kerr 1:02:56
I am in all the places on the internet. The my website is the Center for Sacred Death Care. I'm at Sacred Death Care on all the social channels. I have online courses. I have training. I work with clients. Less now I'm working with clients in person since COVID. It's been a lot online, but I do consultations, and I'm really committed to helping people meet death in a way that honors everything you and I have been talking about. Everything you talk on the show says these things are real. How do we translate that into practical actions at the deathbed, after at the funeral? So love to connect with folks who are that way inclined.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:35
And finally, the one thing I've noticed from this conversation that I really never thought about before when it came to death and is ritual, and and not only ritual for death, but also the the importances of ritual within our lives. And there are those kind of mile markers that we you just said like you know you graduate from high school, you go to college, you become married, you get your first home, and even even more, I was raised Catholic, so first communion and and confirmation and baptism. These rituals are very important to our own development, but I really never gave it as much importance as in after this conversation. It just makes more sense, and in the death process, ritual and creating ritual. That's what's so beautiful about the Day of the Dead, and the the Mexican way of looking at death with their ancestors is so. I mean, Japanese as well, and and so many Asian cultures. There's so many cultures that really work around ancestries and ritual-it's so important. I think that's one big message that we need to put out there in the world: that ritual can help us go through things, and that goes through, you know, marriage is a is a ritual. Sometimes divorce is many times happier than the marriage. Depending on the relationship, I hear, I hear, I'm happily married, but but it is a ritual, and so I think that's something I hope people take away from this. That ritual really can be the kind of the the warm blanket that holds you through whatever you might be going through that really helps you out. Would you agree with that?
Sarah Kerr 1:05:24
Oh, absolutely. It's it's when we talk about body and soul, it's what serves the soul. It is medicine for the soul, the same way physical medicine is medicine for the body. Our souls need ritual. They need meaning. Right. They need help adjusting to these transitions. All of those. You die. Someone dies two years later. You sell the house you lived in together. That's a huge, huge event. And if you just kind of sell it like it's nothing, or you make a ritual that says, "I'm going to say goodbye to all the life we had here. All these things. You're so so right. That ritual just allows us to navigate these huge changes and catch up. Otherwise, we kind of get stuck and we-it's hard to move forward in our grieving.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:10
One last thing, because now I just got another thing. Oh yeah, well I love this. I love I love I love to talk to about is I found that ritual. I was I just saw another movie the other day, yeah, I know you haven't seen this one, but it was Practical Magic Two with with Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman. It's about witches, and and witches, but in a you know lovely way. They've you know oh yeah, I'm all for witches. Yeah yeah, but I kept seeing spells and the pagan. It was basically pagan rituals, you know, and bringing together words, and that, and then as I was watching it, I was like, "Well, that's mantras in the in the East, you know, in the in the Hindu tradition, and in the Vedic traditions, in the Yogic tradition, those mantras are part of their rituals. So, with these kind of rituals, it really has the the power of the ritual is the intention behind it, but because the ritual by itself, if you go to a funeral and there's a box with a person in there, and there's nobody around that person or around in that funeral that is the intention of what is going on. The intention has to be more because we've all been to funerals, we're like, "Ugh, that was rough, and we've been to funerals that were like, "Oh, I I feel like something is past. I feel like I can move on, kind of thing. But it's the intention behind the the ritual that really matters. Because if you're just walking through the steps, it doesn't have the same power. Would you agree?
Sarah Kerr 1:07:40
Absolutely. It's the intention that matters, and it's the ability, the skill of the ritualist to line up the actions with the intention. Right? You you have an intention. That's great. We have an intention, but you actually have to actualize that intention. You have to do rituals and create ritual gestures that help you meet that intention. So, at a deathbed after someone dies, when I come, I'm not usually there for the death, but I come after the death. One of the rituals I do is build people to the place where they pull the sheet over the person's head. Right? Wow. Sometimes it takes four or five hours. We say goodbye. We talk about the ancestors. We do these beautiful rituals with essential oils. We, you know, tend to the body, and we really let them do everything they need to do until they're ready. And I always have the person who's closest, the eldest child, spouse, and it's a it's a big thing. Everyone's standing around. I have instruments, and I say, "Are you ready? Are you ready? And we and if they're not ready, then we do something else until they're ready, till they get to the point where they can pull that sheet over their head. And so my intention in that ritual is that these people make their first step of goodbye. I will never see his face again, and and the way I orchestrate that ritual lines it up with intention, so they are able to do that. So, ritual is also about being able to work like with metaphysics. It's like physics. It's there's this way that energy moves, and when we understand how energy moves and what can amplify it, what can shift it, what these subtle dynamics are, then we can make rituals that do what we need to do.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:32
Sarah, you are as perfect for this job as anyone I've ever met. You have such a beautiful energy to you. You have such a beautiful empathic energy to you, and you. I can tell that you truly care about this work. This isn't a job for you. This is a a mission. This is a calling for you. So, Sarah, I appreciate all the time you spent with us today, and all the work that you're doing to help people on their path, and also help people awaken to. The life that they have to still live. So I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much.
Sarah Kerr 1:10:05
Thank you so much, Alex. It's been really a joy talking to you, and thank you for all the good work you do making this available for people. It changes culture. It's beautiful. From the moment you wake up, your mind is already moving.
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