Hospice Nurse Shares Deathbed Encounters with Julie McFadden

Julie McFadden 0:00
Body knows it's, it's, it's declining and it's getting prepared to die even in younger people. You know, even in younger people.

Alex Ferrari 0:09
As miraculous as birth is, death is just another stage of that journey, right?

Julie McFadden 0:14
Dying parts, not the painful part. You know, diseases can cause symptoms and pain, but not dying, being in that environment where we are trying to keep people alive at all costs, help me see that that is not the way we need to go in healthcare, and certain people we know will die because of certain diseases they have. There has to be a better way than trying to, like, deny that at all costs in the car, I could hear his voice in my head. And I could feel like, feelings of like excitement. I can't help but like smile when I talk about it like and he his voice goes, oh my gosh, Julie, oh my gosh. And then that's when I found out it was called a shared death experience.

Alex Ferrari 1:09
I like to welcome to the show Julie McFadden, how you doing Julie?

Julie McFadden 1:11
Hi nice to see you.

Alex Ferrari 1:13
Nice to see you as well. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm I'm excited to hear about your life journey and what you do and what you've seen, because I've had your hospice nurse, and they call you hospice nurse Julie at hospice nurse Julie and I've had a hospice doctor on before, and it mean that episode did insanely Well years ago. And I'm fascinated to see or hear stories of people who are on the front lines of when people pass, because I heard this is a just a quick little story of another guest who died and came back, and when he came back, he started to talk about he had a near death experience, and when he came back, he started talking to the back, he started talking to the nurse there. And it's like, and this happened, and this happened. And the nurse was like, this old school, been seeing it all, you know, shrapnel, you know, just a shrapnel ridden nurse, right? That's like, seeing it all, doesn't, not impressed. And she's like, Oh, honey, you just went to the other side and came back, and she did it as such. A matter of fact, you just died, you saw heaven and you came back. It happens all the time. Yes, I'm always fascinated by the the frontline workers when it comes to this. So first and foremost, why did you go down the hospice route as a nurse? Because it can't be easy, spiritually, mentally, emotionally. I mean, you're you're literally, because normally nurses are there to save people, and when someone passes, it's like a tragedy. But when you're a hospice, we all know where this is going, and it's so, so difficult. So what made you go down this road?

Julie McFadden 3:01
I get this question all the time, and I get the response that hospice nursing must be so hard, you know what? What makes you want to do it and and what made me want to do it is working as an ICU nurse for like, around seven or eight years. I really have to figure that out, because I answer this question all the time, and I never actually know the exact number, but I was an ICU nurse for long enough. Let's say that. And being an ICU nurse, being that nurse, being in that environment where we are trying to keep people alive at all costs, help me see that that is not the way we need to go in healthcare. We have made leaps and bounds in western medicine to keep us living a lot, much longer of a time, which is amazing most of the time. And then I think we get to a place because we're in we are such a death denying culture that it slips into like suffering more than like surviving like they're not like survive, surviving at all costs. You know, life at all cost. And after at least two years in the ICU, I started being like, wait a minute, this is not what I signed up for. First off, we don't have enough time with our patients. And in the ICU, you only have one or two patients, that's usually the acuity, and it still felt like I didn't have enough time, enough time to, like, truly talk to the family about what was truly happening, enough to talk to the patient, although usually sedated and intubated on a bunch of machines, but still talk to them about what was happening with their, you know, life, and what their goals in life were like, I just didn't have enough time. It was like we couldn't see the forest from the trees. People, families, I could tell didn't fully understand the scope of what was happening to their loved one, like, even if we could get them out of the ICU, what was their survival rate? None of that was really talked about. You know, people would come in with terminal illnesses for for certain surgeries, and then be in the ICU for six months. Meanwhile, this terminal illness is likely. You know, even if they got out of the ICU, they still had a terminal illness, which was never being addressed, right? So it just made me be like, there has to be a better way. There has to be a better way. And I started getting confident, or gaining confidence as an ICU nurse, to start having these difficult conversations about end of life and what were really the outcome? What were really the goals for this person, you know, and giving the reality to the families about what was truly happening, and that was making them, make the families make the decision to let their loved ones die in the hospital, because they now fully had all the information. And I just, I just saw that if we're going to die, which we all are, and certain people we know will die because of certain diseases they have, there has to be a better way than trying to, like, deny that at all costs, you know, and die this, I think, awful death in the ICU, you know. So that's what got me passionate about moving to hospice. And then, man, did I, then I, then I've been learning ever since you know, about the like the miracles of death, which sounds so strange to say, but that is what it felt like to me as a going from an ICU nurse to a hospice nurse and seeing death like the hospice death. Way, it felt miraculous.

Alex Ferrari 6:22
But the thing is that I agree with you, the Western society is very death avoidance, like it doesn't really exist. It's we're not going to really die kind of thing. It's not it's not celebrated. It's a very somber thing. Other cultures celebrate the life. It's part of it's a part of this. It's the Lion King. It's the circle of life. It starts, and it's the whole universe is about recycling, cycling. There's a cycle to everything on the planet and on the universe, there's always cycles, and death is part of that cycle. And in many ways, it's joyous, because this road is over. This This journey is over for us. Sometimes it's tragic, obviously, when they're young, yeah, but if you have a you have someone who's in their, you know, in their elder years, who's lived a good, solid life. I always found that fascinating. You know, my parents said, Don't you dare hook me up to a machine. Like, don't like, because they saw that with their parents, yeah, and they're like, I don't want to sit around like a vegetable for six years, because I can be technically kept alive. But what kind of life is that? So it should, I think you're right. It should be changed into a more miraculous thing. As miraculous as birth is, death is just another stage of that journey, right?

Julie McFadden 7:44
Right! I say that all the time, and that's been my experience as a as a hospice nurse. Those are the things that I learned as a new hospice nurse. You know, watching the body not need much at the end of life, meaning, like, we didn't have to do a lot as nurses. Now, sometimes we do right, but there were certain circumstances where, like I saw how our bodies are built to die, and the less we do, and the more we allow that to happen, the better the person usually does, and the more peaceful the death usually is. That was mind blowing to me. I truly didn't know that. I didn't know that our body had built in mechanisms to shut off hunger and thirst, to have our calcium levels rise so we sleep a lot. You know, I didn't know that allowing the body to do that naturally helps the body shut down and helps the person die more peacefully. I didn't know that as a healthcare worker,

Alex Ferrari 8:38
Wow, they don't teach you that in medical school, I'm assuming.

Julie McFadden 8:40
I mean, I haven't been in medical school, but nursing school, yeah, what I've heard, yeah, from what they didn't teach at nursing school, no. I mean, I don't even remember learning about death in nursing school. I'm sure we did, but I don't remember, yeah, I don't remember.

Alex Ferrari 8:55
It's like nutrition in a medical school. You hear you have 1 15 minute class on it, and that's the end of it.

Julie McFadden 9:01
Yeah. You pass the test and like, forget.

Alex Ferrari 9:05
Yeah, you're done. You're done. What? But what I find fascinating, I never heard that before, that the body itself is designed. I mean we, our DNA gradually deteriorates throughout our life. It's just part of the nature of what we do. We could do things to lengthen that timeline, by health, by taking care of yourself, by the foods you eat, the environment you live in, all these kind of different factors. But I never really thought about towards the end that your body's like, Okay, it's time. Let's start. Okay, guys, it's send this out. We gotta need more calcium. Okay, we need to do this. Let's cut off hunger and thirst, you know, let's it's time to go. It's time to end.

Julie McFadden 9:44
And it really does happen. I mean, I think, like you said, it's more tragic, and like a younger population agreed, and usually, is a little harder. Meaning, like the disease that they're dying from, usually cause more symptoms, the rest of their bodies doing okay. So it's a little more of a struggle, right? Right? But I would, I would still say their body still knows intuitively, and not even as I'll say intuitive, but I really mean, like biologically, this is not like woo, woo stuff. I'm saying this is like literal biology. The body can start sensing and shutting things down because they know the body knows it's, it's it's declining, and it's getting prepared to die even in younger people. You know, even in younger people, hence why almost everyone on hospice will always stop eating and drinking. They don't want it. They don't want food and water. And that is because the body is not is telling them that,

Alex Ferrari 10:40
Yeah, it's time to go. It's It's time,

Julie McFadden 10:42
Yeah, it's time to go. Actually makes it easier. Yeah, the ride is over. It's time to go. This will make it easier. We're not going to make you hungry and thirsty.

Alex Ferrari 10:49
You don't have to go, but you can't stay here.

Julie McFadden 10:52
Yeah, yeah. And then hospice, of course, is there to, like, help with anything that might come up. Because I don't want to paint this perfect picture of like, nothing needs to be done. You know, sometimes the disease you're dying from can be painful, yeah, sure, but dying itself, no, the process of dying, how dying looks if you're on hospice and dying, what I would call a natural death, even if it's from something the dying part's not the painful part. You know, diseases can cause symptoms and pain but not dying.

Alex Ferrari 11:22
So let me ask you, because I've heard this, and I actually experienced it with my grandfather when he passed. They people who are about to die. They generally don't like to die with other people in the room. They'll wait for you to go get some water. They'll wait to leave. And they want to die. A lot of times I've found that they've died they want to die alone because they don't want to cause that pain, or they just want to leave by themselves. Is that your experience as well? Because it happened with my grandfather. He waited for everyone to leave, and then he just died, like, we all went to just get a drink or, like, some chips or something while we and then when we came back, he was gone,

Julie McFadden 11:57
All right! Well, so that is one of the phenomenons that I would I would say it's like a phenomenon of end of life, where people can kind of choose how and when they die, and I think it's really based on people's personalities. So I think sometimes people will wait until everyone's there, everyone's in town. I had a woman who was like the matriarch of the family, where she had a bunch of kids, a bunch of grandkids, great grandkids. She was in her late 90s, right? Kept the family together so super close with her family. Family was huge to her. She actively died, which means, like the last phase of life where you're unconscious, changes in breathing, no food and water. And she was in her 90s, mind you, she was like that for three weeks, because she was literally waiting for everyone to come into town, and everyone came into town, and then she died. So I think it depends on the person's personality. Now, I think people who are independent, not shy, but like introverted or prideful or, you know, don't want to be taken care of things like that, like my mom would. My mom is still alive, but she would be like that, like she would want people to all be gone so she could die, die alone, basically, because she doesn't want them to see her like that. She wouldn't want us to see her like that. So I think it depends on the personality. I've also seen people like literally choose a date when they were gonna die, and they died on that date.

Is it? Is it true that more what I had? Well, there was this. You remember Carrie Fisher, of course, Princess Leia, yeah, when she died the next day, her mother died right after, and she literally went to her son and goes, I have to go with Carrie. I'm leaving. And she just, yeah, she just died. She didn't kill she didn't kill it. She just died. It was the craziest, like, so that's a perfect example of someone in the public eye that did that. Literally just like, Oh, I gotta go. And she was gone. It was crazy that you've seen that happen before.

There is a syndrome called, like the broken heart syndrome, where, I don't know if they've actually done studies on it, but they do think there's, like, stress hormones that happen when someone dies that could technically affect the heart, and that's why people say people die of a broken heart. You know, some a couple who's been, you know, married for 60 years, the wife dies and the husband dies soon after, yeah. So there could actually be some biological, biological things to the dying from a broken heart, you know. But also, I had a patient once tell her caregiver like I'm dying tonight. Please take care of my son, because she had a disabled son, please take care of my son. Promise me, you will the caregivers like, What are you talking about? You're going to be like, I know you're on hospice, but you're not dying right now. Yeah, tonight, I'll take care of your son. Don't worry. And she said, No, I'm tired. I'm going home. She called her son in said, you know, said her goodbyes to him. Oh, and then she died. Amazing. I mean, amazing. That's the kind of stuff that like is, it happens a lot. I see it a lot on hospice. But those are, like, unexplainable things, you know, I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 15:11
And on the on the theme of unexplainable things, I'm sure you've got a couple of stories of things that have happened you, you've mentioned that you've had a shared death experience. I've had a doctor who came on who talks all about shared death he was a doctor, and he went through it and and he, like he wrote a book about it. He's a big thing. Forgot his name off the top of my head. But I've heard of shared death experiences. Now there's a near death experience, which is someone that passes, goes, he's they're dead. Could be for a second, could be for 10 minutes. I've actually heard longer, and they come back and then, but this is a shared death experience. Can you explain what a shared death experience is to everybody?

Julie McFadden 15:53
Well, I learned what it was after I told my story, like I told this story, which I can tell, and then people were saying, that's a shared death experience. That's a shared death experience. So then I've learned, kind of, in hindsight, what it was. So shared death experience is basically, I'm sure it can be, it could happen different ways, but it's when someone who is dying shows you what it's like. So they kind of take you along with them. And I'm sure there are various degrees of that and but that was what my experience was. It was like, I was shown what it was like to die, or like to, quote, unquote, like, maybe cross over.

Alex Ferrari 16:29
So what was so, let's, let's walk through it. What was that story?

Julie McFadden 16:32
Yeah, so my favorite patient, yes, I have a favorite. I feel bad saying that, but like, I can't help it, the sky. I still think of them all the time. Um, okay, so yeah, he was, he was, I want to give the backstory, because, because I love him so much and like it kind of plays into, like, the feeling behind it, and why I was so happy for him. So he came onto our service. He was young, dying of a terminal illness. Obviously, he had a lot of mental health issues. So when we showed up at his house as a hospice team, you know, he had a hoarding issue. He didn't have friends and family, per what he said, very anxious demeanor. How old I'll give you a general age, like 40 to 50. Okay? Generally, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 17:20
Young, young guy, still,

Julie McFadden 17:20
Yeah, yeah, young guy, and yeah, just like an anxious, very, very anxious demeanor. And clearly, like an unsafe living conditions, okay? And luckily, I feel like, because he had this terminal diagnosis, he almost had this, like, new, like, this new ability to, kind of, like, want to let things go. Mean, hence, he was a hoarder, hoarders, you know, that's a whole that's a mental illness. That's, you can't just get rid of the stuff. They'll get more stuff, right? So luckily, though, when we met him, I think because he knew he was dying, he sort of, like, turned over a new leaf, and he allowed us to, like, reach out to people that might know him, distant relatives, cousins, things like that, to help come in town and, like, basically clean out, how clean out his apartment so he's a safe place to live and kind of get this journey started for him. And he allowed us to do that. So within one weekend, we got in touch of, like, distant cousins who came in town helped get rid of all of his stuff in the house so he could have, like, a nice living, nice apartment to live in. And I remember coming back after all of that happened, and he was like a new man. He was like so happy that he had this apartment again and that he saw his cousins, who stayed for a while and ended up leaving. And because of that, I feel like he ended up living on hospice for much longer than we thought he would have. The type of cancer he had was very advanced, and he usually died pretty quickly, but he ended up being with us, probably for nine months, maybe more, wow, and I know, and he was like, pretty well, like, he like, his pain was controlled, but he could still, like, walk around and do things, right? So I say all this because for nine months, my visits were not that complicated. And really, all I did was, like, sit around and talk with him, maybe change meds once in a while, let this pain increase, but for the most part, we just talked. And he was so interesting, and we talked about life and death and what he thought and his hopes and fears, and, like, all these existential questions, right? And of course, I didn't really have answers for him, so it was just sort of like him, and I just talking about what we thought, or, you know, it was never me giving him like answers, because I don't know what happens. I was just listening to what he had to say. And slowly he did get to the point where he was in the actively dying phase, which is, which is like the last phase of life. And we did have a continuous care nurse in his home, meaning a nurse that was there 24/7 to care for him, because he was having, like, intermittent agitation and things like that, but he was mostly unconscious. And the last day I visited, because I had to visit every day while the continuous care nurse was there, just to make sure everything was okay, I could tell he would die. That day. Just from being a hospice nurse for a while, I could tell the way he was breathing, the how he looked like, I think he would die that day. Okay, so I said my goodbyes to him in my head, because he was unconscious. And I just said, like, Thank you for everything. Like, I hope you have a beautiful journey, yada yada. And I told the continuous care nurse, hey, when he dies, text me because I knew he would die, like, pretty soon. And I left. And as a hospice nurse, it's so weird you like, leave your most favorite patient and then go who's dying, and then go to your next patient, right? So I had a weird feeling leaving, but like, you gotta do what you gotta do. And I got in my car, and before I left, I was like, No, I sat there and, like, basically, kind of started talking to him in my head again, just saying, like, Thank you for your friendship. Like, you're so wonderful. Blah, blah, blah, hope everything works out. Like, thank you for only care for you all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, in the car, I could hear his voice in my head, and I could feel like, feelings of like, excitement. I can't help but like, smile when I talk about it, like, and he his voice goes, oh my gosh, Julie, oh my gosh. And he was smiling. I could, like, see him and hear him and feel what he was feeling. Best way I could describe it. It's kind of like I was transported somewhere else, you know, and he was going, oh my gosh, Julie, oh my gosh. If I only would have known, if I only would have known, and this feeling of like peace and joy and kind of like soaring or like exuberance, like just came over me. And he wasn't saying much, except for, oh my gosh, Julie, oh my gosh, Julie, if I only would have known. But the essence of what he gave me was like, if I only would have known how amazing this is, I would not have feared this, because we had many conversations of him saying he was a little afraid. You know, he's a little scared, and I knew in his life he felt very restricted and tons of anxiety, and he had mental health issues, and he was showing me how free he was, like the immense feeling of freedom and release and joy and excitement and peace that I felt in that moment when he was going, oh my gosh, Julie, oh my gosh. He was almost like whispering to me, I can't believe it. I was like weeping in my car, weeping, weeping, weeping, tears of joy. Because I couldn't, the feeling was so overwhelming. If I could really, if I can get into it, I can almost relive it again and again. And almost as soon as it started it ended, probably, you know, maybe 30 seconds. But once it ended, it was like, whoo. I was kind of like, back in my car again, like, back to this reality, which made me realize I wasn't in this reality, if that makes sense. And my phone beeped, and I looked at it, and it was the nurse saying so and so just died. And I thought, I know, because I feel like he just showed me like what it was like that moment he had when he was what if you want to say, crossing over or something, right? And I just said, Thank you, and we started planning things. I didn't tell her what just happened, because I didn't know what just happened. I was kind of like, God smacked. I was like, wiping my tears in my car, being like, What the heck just happened, you know? And that's never happened to me before. Did that really happen? You know, that's where I go, like, Did that really happen? What's going on? And I think, like, years later, I finally decided to tell people, because I didn't tell anybody, because people always ask me why I didn't really fear death. And there's many reasons why I don't fear death, but this reason is one of the main reasons why this like feeling and experience I had. So finally I just told people, because I thought, You know what? This is why. And I've been like, kind of like hiding one of the reasons, right? And then that's when I found out it was called a shared death experience. And, yeah, I'm forever grateful. It was amazing.

Alex Ferrari 23:52
So when you were being shown, you were seeing this all in your mind's eye, or did you, like, kind of physically see this?

Julie McFadden 23:58
No, it's all mind's eye. Mind, it's hard to explain, because I don't, I don't actually fully understand it myself, right? But it did feel like I was like somewhere else, but not like physically with my eyes that I see it, right? It was like in my mind's eye or in my mind's ear too, like I heard his voice in my head, but it did sound like his voice. It didn't sound like mine. Sound like his voice in my head. And then I had feelings of like what he was feeling, and kind of like visuals in my head. And what were the visuals? The visual was him smiling, and like, almost like soaring. And I was kind of there too. I think, you know, it's, it's very hard to articulate, because it's never happened before.

Alex Ferrari 24:45
It's from what I've understood from shared death experiences. This is the first one I've heard that you were not in the room. It usually happens when you're in the room. This is, yeah, there's a very odd one, because it's, I've never heard of a shared death experience that. Someone was not in the room?

Julie McFadden 25:01
Yeah, I wasn't in the room. I was in my car.

Alex Ferrari 25:04
Right! Exactly! Yeah, it's, I mean, when you hear stories, and maybe you have stories like this too, is like Grandma. Grandma shows up at the edge of your bed to say goodbye to you while you're sleeping, and then you get a phone call, like, five minutes later, grandma died that I heard. That's not a shared death experience, that's just a visitation, essentially, of someone saying hi to you as they're going but I've the ones I've heard have been all in a room, and they see everything that's happening, but they can only go so far. There's like this, there's point of no return. In other words, you can't go past this because you're not dying. Yeah, it's a view. It's we're giving you a view of what's going to be but it's not that it was a tremendous gift for you to get this access because for your work, and now the work that you do on YouTube and and all your platforms, to kind of share this information in your book as well. It's pretty mind blowing. I So, how did you, well, let me ask you, did you, um, did were you spiritual before this?

Julie McFadden 26:07
Yeah, I've always been spiritual since I've been a little girl, okay, like I was, like, born like that. It was, it's very am I? Some of my earliest memories are of like me having existential questions, like asked to my mom, like, why are we here? What are we doing here? Why am I here? Where did I come from? Where am I going? Like, I've always been a seeker in that sense. But so I would say, like, generally speaking, I believe in something greater, something bigger than me. Are more powerful and loving than me, I suppose. But I but I wouldn't say I'm like, into this, like spiritual things, right? I'm not seeking it. Hence why I can have these experiences and not tell anyone for years, because I don't want people to know, because I don't know what it is, and I can't explain it, and so I keep it to myself, or I kept it to myself.

Alex Ferrari 27:01
Yeah, you've come out of the closet. I hate to tell you, yes, yeah, you've definitely come out of the closet at this point. Yeah, after you, after you write a book, you're pretty much done.

Julie McFadden 27:09
Yeah, yeah. Millions of views this kind of this is the this. This is the thing where I was, like, shy to tell it. And of course, of course, it's like, the video that gets like, 9 million views. You're like, Okay, well, here we are,

Alex Ferrari 27:23
Hence the YouTube hence the YouTube button behind you. So when you came out of the closet, the shared death experience closet, how did your other colleagues kind of deal with it, because I always ask those kind of questions, because I'm always curious on the psychological deal that people have to go through when they come out, like, Hey, I died. I saw Jesus, or I, you know, I had a shared death experience. I'm like, I'm a psychic medium now. And like, I used to be a military person, but now I'm a psychic medium. Like your people around you must look at you a little differently, but I have a feeling that other hospice nurses probably didn't look at you side eyed. They probably like, okay, because they're around this energy all the time. Is that kind of what happened?

Julie McFadden 28:15
Yeah, no, I didn't get whether maybe they are judging me, not to my face, I don't know, right? But generally speaking, like friends, family, colleagues, followers, other, other people on Tiktok and YouTube that I'm friends with, you know, no one. No one said anything. They were they most of the time, they shared some of their experiences, specifically other hospice nurses. I mean, maybe not a shared death experience happens to everybody, but visioning, which we can get into, is something that happens on hospice, you know, all the time, like you can't really deny it. So what's all the time? So what's visioning? Visioning is when a dying person, and it usually happens a few weeks before they die, we'll see loved ones who have already died, or friends who have already died, pets who have already died. Sometimes they see deities, depending on what they believe. You know, if they're Christian, sometimes they say Jesus or like an archangel, um, and I've seen other religions, see other things, so that doesn't really have to be Christian. But sometimes they'll see deities, sometimes they'll see angels, but it's usually like loved ones who they love and care for, who have already died I make visitations. I mean, that happens in probably, like 80% of people. It's not always reported. Yeah, it's not always reported. So it's hard to get a it's hard to get, like, a real number, but, and it usually happens around three weeks, three to four weeks before they die. So they're not really, like on death's door, you know, they there's a while there people think and talk. I mean, this is, like, my number one thing. People are always like, oh, you know, we don't know why it happens. We don't and it might not be anything spiritual. Who knows it could be a biological thing, but we do know that it's not happening because of lack of oxygen and medication, because those things. Things we rule out. And the person who has low oxygen, usually that's the very, very, very, very end of life. And people who are visioning are not at the very, very, very end of life. They're, you know, three weeks out or something, and their oxygen is fine. So there's a huge difference between, you know, delirium, psycho like ICU psychosis, where people are seeing like scary things and bugs and things like that. Envisioning, visioning is very clear. They're not confused most of the time, and they know who they are, and they're almost as surprised as anybody else you know. I've had many patients secretly come up to me after everyone's out of the room, and grab my arm, you know, and whisper like, I'm afraid to say this, because I'm afraid you're going to think I'm crazy. But, you know, my parents came to me last night. They said they're not coming yet, but they're going to come soon and not to worry, and they're going to take care of me. And they are kind of like, what does it mean? You know, what does that mean? I always just say, I don't know, but it happens all the time. Feel better. And they're like, Yeah, I do feel better. I'm like, great.

Alex Ferrari 31:12
So these kind of deaths allow that because they're longer stretched out deaths, as opposed to an accident or something like that. That's very

Julie McFadden 31:20
And, of course, though we don't know, though, maybe an accident that happens, maybe in report, right?

Alex Ferrari 31:25
Yeah, there's that, unless they have a near death experience and then they come back, which I've That's true, yeah, but generally speaking, I've heard this before. Actually had a medium come on the show, and she explained the the 12 stages of death of okay, it's fascinating. She wrote a whole book about it, of what and who comes up in the order they come in weeks, basically what you just said in the weeks coming to their death. And it's done as a kind of a runway for them, like a soft runway for them to come in, because it's apparently very traumatic. A lot of times, from the human world to the spiritual world, there's a lot of confusions. There's a lot of and it also depends on what you're bringing in from the human space, okay, like, if you've got a lot of dogma in you, a lot of that stuff, you kind of bring that in there, and you need something, somebody, whoever that is. It could be Jesus, it could be mom, it could be uncle, Bob, whoever it is, to kind of walk you through this and calm you like it's okay, you'll remember, slowly but surely, you'll understand who you are. And then finally they they get it. But there's this stage. These are stages. So it's fascinating to hear that you are seeing the same thing that the medium was saying.

Julie McFadden 32:42
Yeah. I mean, I think too, now that I do a lot of education, and I do that with my patients too, like my real life patients, when I'm actually being a hospice nurse, because I mentioned the visioning, I don't say like, and you might see dead people like, I just, I use it as, like, an education tool, like pure like, and this may happen. I and I think it's important for you to know so you're not confused or scared. If it does, some people, when they're getting close to death, will start having visions. These visions might be dreams. It might be this might be loved ones. Might be your your dog who died, you know. And just give examples, and I would honestly say nine times out of 10, because I bring it up and I educate about it, it makes them feel a little more free to say something. And I would say, nine times out of 10, it's already happening, and then they'll already go, that's already happened. Now we know why. You know,

Alex Ferrari 33:35
They're like, great, she's, she's, she's drinking the Kool Aid too. Fantastic. I got someone else to talk to.

Julie McFadden 33:40
Yeah. Yeah. So I think because, like, I mention it, it see, at least to me, it seems like I get reports of it more because I'm the one who's like showing them that, like I'm educating about it.

Alex Ferrari 33:54
So let me ask you, though you've had all these experiences, these death experiences, just being in the room or seeing people die in front of you again and again, again. How many years have you been a hospice nurse?

Julie McFadden 34:07
Eight or nine again. I need to, I need to figure out the actual math of this. But eight or nine, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 34:13
And so you've seen probably hundreds of deaths at this point, yeah. So you've experienced that from different one of your patients. That has to, I have to ask you, like, what has that done to you on a spiritual point of view? I mean, you said that you're not afraid of death anymore. You're very similar to near death experiencers. None of them are afraid of death once they see the other side. Even shared death experiencers, once they see the other side, they go, it's not even seeing it. They feel it. Yeah, and you're saying the same thing, so they feel it. But has your spirituality changed strengthened? It's in regards to any not dogma, but just the concepts of the higher power life after death. What has that done for you, being exposed to all of this.

Julie McFadden 35:00
Yeah, I think it's just solidified what I've already what I've always known. Like I said, I mean, ever since I've been a little girl, I have words for it now, but I couldn't, I couldn't explain this then, but ever since I've been a little girl, I always say I felt homesick for a place that I can't quite remember. Like I've always felt that always, and being a hospice nurse has helped me see that that's accurate. But I think where we're going is like home, like more like home than here ever could be. And I feel that homeness, that like closeness, that like, oh, there it is. This is the thing that I've like, that I have forgotten about. I see that in dying people when they're very close to death, not just, not just when they're, you know, weeks out, but in that actively dying phase, when I watch people take their last breath, doesn't feel now, the grief for me is removed. It's not my loved one. So I think it's this is why I can almost feel it and see it, because it's not my loved one that I'm not going through this, right? But I feel like I can kind of see and feel that place again, like they're so close to it. And I feel the same exact way when I see a baby, so like, holding a baby, being near a baby, seeing a baby being born, it feels the same to me, like, like they've just come from that place. And I feel like I like, see it in their eyes, yeah, yeah. And then it's like that with a dying person too, right? So it feels the same, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 36:26
There's an energy about a child and there's an energy about someone dying. That's similar, very, very similar, because it's just, you're just on the other sides of the finish lines. It one's starting line, one's the ending line, but it's all going back to the same place you're coming and going to the same place which is fast

Julie McFadden 36:44
And then it, that is not the only reason why I don't like I the reason why hospice nursing is not hard to me is that's not the only reason, right? Like, there is a beautiful, spiritual, spiritual part of it for me that I don't necessarily talk about with my everyday patients, because I don't feel like it's my place, really, unless they ask, but the biology of it really feels spiritual to me too. And like, why I love my job? Like, at the end of the day we're all going to die, like, that's, that's the fact, right? That's the fact of life. And I feel like hospice is, is a beautiful way to do it, no matter whether you're young or old, like it's still a beautiful way to do it, so it doesn't feel directly sad. It's like it's inevitable. I think so if it's inevitable, and we know that, how do you want to look and can I help you have the best death you can, since you can't avoid that, you can't avoid it unfortunately, right? So that's why it feels not sad to me. I feel really grateful that I get to be a part of someone's end of life journey.

Alex Ferrari 37:48
Did you ever hear the last three words that Steve Jobs ever said right before he died?

Julie McFadden 37:53
Yeah, wow, wow, wow.

Alex Ferrari 37:55
Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing that those are the three last words? Amazing? It's like, Yeah, wow, wow, wow, yeah.

Julie McFadden 38:05
I have a whole thing on my Instagram, and people who wrote into me telling me their loved ones last words. And like, some are beautiful, like that, and some are like, funny, like, Your breath stinks, and some are because you don't always know what's going to be your last words, right? You know? So some are like, amazing, like that. And some are funny, like, your best stinks. Are like, get me this or and it was so beautiful. I put their last words with, like, a picture of them with their like, just like their family talking about them. It's so beautiful.

Alex Ferrari 38:32
So, um, there's a lot of people who are watching who might be having someone go through hospice right now, someone who's dying right now, or someone who just passed. Can you explain to people, have you had any experience with people who have had negative dying experiences? You kind of hinted about that with the psychosis with like, you know, animals are scary, but what from all the hundreds of experiences that you've gone through. Has there been any ones that have been like, I see, oh my god, the devil is in the room, or something like that? That was not a psycho was not a medical issue. Of like, something's happening with the brain?

Julie McFadden 39:13
No, I have not. I mean, I'm still going to talk about this, because people still have traumatic deaths and things like that, but generally speaking, I've never had anything be like a spiritual feeling of like, this is bad, this is wrong. There's some, you know, some kind of devil, or they're going to a bad place. I personally have never had that. I've had our deaths because people have been terminally agitated, or their symptoms were not controlled because of what they wanted towards their end of life, which was like, I can think of one person specifically who didn't want any, like, Western meds, so no steroids, no morphine, no Ativan, like nothing. They didn't want anything like that, but they had a brain tumor and were seizing all the time, and, like, really needed that medical intervention. But. Didn't want it, so we had to respect their wishes. So they had a really horrible death, like, really horrible, really awful to watch, horrific, right?

Alex Ferrari 40:08
And with that medicine in that medicine wouldn't have kept them alive, it would have just kept them comfortable,

Julie McFadden 40:13
Right! Wouldn't have kept them alive, but would have kept them comfortable. But this person had their own beliefs on what they wanted to do. They kind of wanted to, like, go through the process of dying no matter what it was, right? So even when they couldn't make their own choices, they had all, like, legally written out that they didn't want x, y and z given. So it was really hard. It was really hard. But like, I guess someone could look at that if they had a spiritual lens, they could say, like, oh, they have the they could say they had the devil inside them, and they were going to a bad place, by the way they were, by the way this person was acting. Yes, you could say she was possessed and going to hell. That's the way it looked. But I don't believe that. I don't believe in that there's a hell. I don't believe we go to anywhere bad. I don't I don't believe that no matter what you've done. I don't think so. So that's my own personal belief. I would never say that to someone that I'm actually working with, because I don't think it's my place. They can believe what they want to believe. But I've never experienced something like that. But I've experienced deaths that look like that, and I think it's mostly terminal agitation and unresolved and unmanaged symptoms that are caused by the disease they're dying from.

Alex Ferrari 41:24
What is? What are some stories besides your shared death experience that kind of stood out patients or experiences or things that they said that might have helped you build your tapestry of beliefs on the other side of what you've seen and things like that to reinforce what you saw on the shared death experience. Things that these, these, these people were saying, we talked about, yeah, grandma's there, my parents are there, my dog is there. But what are some other things that they've said on their last days?

Julie McFadden 41:54
I wouldn't say, said, I would say the feelings, okay, because a lot of people can't talk at the end of life, but they're sure. So the greatest thing, the greatest gift that I get, like every single time I work, is seeing the love that exists between whether it's family or friends or a caregiver, like the love in this little house, in the house that they're all caring for the dying loved one. You know, like, there is something about watching other people care for someone dying, and even watching that person going through the dying process in such a gracious way, there is something like sacred about it that like, like really solidifies, like to me, like the beauty and love that that is the only thing that matters. Like the like, like, when I'm when I'm working, like I'm like, this is the only thing that life is about. Only thing is like, to love and care for someone, because it's so uncomfortable, like for parents to care for their dying son, who shouldn't be dying, right? He's 40 years old. He has, he has children like, I can think of a family that was so meaningful to me. They were Spanish speaking only, so we had to, like, use an interpreter on the phone the whole time. But it still felt like I never was even using an interpreter. It was like we could just communicate just by looking at each other. It was a it was a young dad, two young kids, his wife, his parents, her parents, all in the same house, all working together to provide this man with the best death possible, despite it being unfair, right? It's unfair, like it's unfair he's dying, but they didn't, they didn't hide the kids away from it. They cared from the best he could. They utilized me and the rest of the hospice team to help, you know, make this death the best they could. He did the best he could, and I was there for his last breath, and it was like one of the most beautiful things I ever could have witnessed, because they could have been and it's they have every right to be how they want to be right, but they could have been hysterical. They could have been calling 911, trying to make it not happen, not wanting to accept the fact that he was dying, right. But instead, they didn't like the wife was laying her head on his chest, his parents were at his head, like rubbing his head, and like whispering sweet nothings. Her parents were at his feet. Kids were in the bed, and they were all just letting him go. And makes me want to cry just thinking about it. It sounds it is horrifically sad, but it also was the one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen that they were willing to, like, set aside how uncomfortable they must be, how sad they must be, to like, be there and witness his last breath and like, that is the stuff that gets me. That is the stuff that I'm like. This is what life is all about. This is why we're here.

Alex Ferrari 44:39
Yeah, culturally, I'm Latino, so I understand culturally, it's not looked upon the same as is in the West. It's death. Death is a different it's treated a bit differently. So that makes sense to me. It makes it makes a lot it makes a lot of sense to me. If there's someone watching right now, who is going. Going, not personally going through hospice. Maybe they are, if they're watching this and they're going through hospice, God bless that you're watching our show or this episode. But if there's family members, loved ones, who are currently going or are about to go into hospice, watching a loved one going to hospice, what advice would you have for them to make it okay and pleasurable, not pleasurable, but comfortable for the one dying and how they should deal, or advice on how they should deal.

Julie McFadden 45:31
I think remembering to remember that it is uncomfortable, and just because it feels uncomfortable or sad or awful or overwhelming doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong. And I always tell people to plan, plan, plan, plan. Like, we plan weddings, we plan vacations, we plan so many things. Plan the death. Like, say the word death and die. Like, get used to those really uncomfortable things. Just because we plan for it and try to understand it doesn't mean it's going to happen any quicker. And in fact, most people live better and die better if they plan. So try to get a plan in place. If it could. We know you're going to die, right? So what would be the perfect surroundings? You know? What are you going to do if this happens? If that happens, how do you want? You know, get everything in order plan, plan for it, and talk about it, and also know that it's really normal to like, feel afraid, feel sad, feel angry. You know, it doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily going to like, feel good, right? So like normalizing that and speaking those things into existence. So like, I have many patients say to me, I am angry. I'm dying. I'm afraid to die. And I always just say that that's okay. That's so normal to have those things. And the fact that you're willing to speak those words out loud means that you're already a step ahead of like most people like there's something in about speaking the truth that can free you a bit, even for a moment from like that fear and anxiety of it, right? So it's like, just do that. Keep the communication lines open, plan and ask for help. Ask for help from whoever will help you, right? Whether it's the hospice team, doctors, social workers, your friends, your family. This is like a like all hands on deck kind of time, right? So you can't do it alone.

Alex Ferrari 47:28
What I find fascinating about your career, your occupation, is that your training and correct me if I'm wrong, your training is medical training of how to help someone to get through. But you've spoken very little of that in this conversation. It's all been more about emotional support, spiritual support, mental health support. It sounds like you're almost a social worker, a spiritual like a doula, if you a death doula, if you will, um, walking people towards delight, if you will. And it's not just about more morphine, a bit more of this, more that I've heard very little about that it that's what's fine. I find fascinating about hospice nurses and hospice doctors who it's most of their job is not what they were taught in school,

Julie McFadden 48:22
Right! I do think it takes that is something that we're like, people said, like, oh, it takes a special someone, right? I'm not. I think it takes a certain type of personality to be able to, like, communicate these things, right? You're either like, kind of like, good at doing that and like reading the room, or you're not. It can be taught. But I think it kind of like you have to have life experience. Like my because of my ICU nursing, right? I feel like I can sort of see the other side of like, if you didn't choose hospice, right, right? So I can speak to that experience, but I will say, like, on my day, because I'm on a podcast with you, and like, the questions you're asking, the things we're talking about, that is mostly what I'm talking about. But when I'm talking to a hospice family, and there are, there are many days I am doing the medical side of it, which still feels really good, because some days it is a matter of tweaking medications and helping people understand that, like, morphine isn't just to kill someone, right? It truly helps. So there is a lot of that. It just depends on the situation. I'm all about morphine. Okay, we could talk about medications all day long. So there is that side of me for sure.

Alex Ferrari 49:36
I mean, if you have any morphine, let me know. I would like you got any side, didn't take someone from the office. Now, I'm joking. No, I've never been on anything that strong. Thank God. I've never needed anything that strong at a hospital. I appreciate it. But that, and that's something also to there. Do you find like that? That one talk with that one example you gave of the. Them refusing morphine. Or Western medicine, does that come up often, where people's personal belief systems stop them from just being comfortable in their last days?

Julie McFadden 50:11
So that was an extreme case, for sure. That has only come up one time. And you know, the eight or nine years I've I've done hospice, so that was an extreme case, but the fear of morphine comes up almost every day at my job. I really have to do a lot of education over using morphine. You know, why we use it, what it does, what amount it is. You know, most people think they hear the word morphine. It's super strong. It's not. I mean, and specifically in hospice, the amount of morphine we give is like minuscule. It's like what you would take for like a toothache, and now there's, there's, we can advance it up. I mean, of course, depending on someone's pain and what they come on to hospice, using things like that, but generally speaking, if no one's been using any kind of narcotic prior to hospice, the amount of morphine we give is minuscule, like minuscule, no ability to quicken death with the amount of morphine we're given. It's scientifically proven. Hospice doesn't do that, but people just think that because they hear the word morphine. So tons of education about morphine is needed. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 51:14
I was, I always thought of morphine is just a painkiller. I never knew. It was like, I mean, yeah, of course, you can, you Jack anything up, you could die from it, yeah. But I never, I never heard, I mean, I'm not in the hospice game, so I haven't heard of, like, oh yeah, they, that's how they kill people. They deal with morphine. Like, that's,

Julie McFadden 51:30
Oh my gosh, there's whole, like, pages dedicated to, like, hospice kills people, and I'm on it, and they don't like me. They're like, Wow, this nurse, how dare she Yes,

Alex Ferrari 51:42
Really. So there's a yeah because of the it's because of dogmatic belief systems, yeah, or conspira or conspiracy theories, essentially, yeah.

Julie McFadden 51:51
Or, like, their experience, that's sort of, that's one of the things. Is, like people, if they didn't have someone really educating them on what was happening and why it was happening, you could say, I could see where they could say, you know, they didn't care. My Loved One wasn't eating and drinking. They had changes in breathing. They looked like they were suffocating, which it does look like that. If you don't understand what's happening, it can look like that, you know, no one gave any no one did anything except give morphine, you know. And so then putting grief, like adding grief in there. It's like, of course, of course, they think that. They think there's persons suffered and no one did anything except for load them full of drugs, you know. And if you're not educate, if you if you weren't educated on what was actually happening, or maybe you were, but you couldn't hear it, because you're too You're too much in grief. I can see where they could draw that conclusion.

Alex Ferrari 52:42
Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests, what is your definition of living a a fulfilled life?

Julie McFadden 52:51
I think living in the present moment as much as you can period.

Alex Ferrari 52:57
If you had a chance to go back in time and speak to little Julie, what advice would you give her?

Julie McFadden 53:01
Oh, um, little Julie. Oh little Julie, I'd say, baby girl, you nothing is wrong with you. Nothing's wrong with you. You're gonna be okay. Everything's gonna work out, and nothing's wrong with you. I do that like every day, Alex, this is me, like, petting her child. I'm like, constantly reassuring her, yeah, okay.

Alex Ferrari 53:28
It's a great exercise to actually visualize yourself as a child, no little version of you, and literally sit down and have a conversation with that. I know that version of you, girls. It's like you look, bang, you're like, because you remember what you felt like, who you were at that moment. And I know, and you want to bring in, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be fine, yeah, if you had a if, how do you define God or Source?

Julie McFadden 53:56
Oh, gosh, I don't try to really, the more I, you know, I think I've tried to define God because it was easier, and then the closer I got to this, like defined God that I have had experiences with, the more and more I realized, like, it's not defined, so it's like a feeling of love and peace and like a divinely guided higher power that deeply loves me personally would never be condemned, condemning or judgmental. So it's a lot of things. It's like hard to define because it's so vast now, but I still, I still try to have it be like a personal God who, like, knows me personally. Because, like, the more general and vast it is. It's hard for me to like think that it would know me personally, right? But I do believe it does, yeah. So I mean, yeah, kind of higher power, some kind of higher power that's like, all loving, all knowing and divinely guiding.

Alex Ferrari 55:00
Just to stop for a second, I find it fascinating that you've mentioned that, because so many people do believe that, like, Oh, God doesn't know who I am. It's such this kind of programming that they don't understand how powerful and they are God. They're part of God. Yeah, all where everything, everything is part of the source and of God and of the universe. Whatever you want to say. It's not like, oh, they forgot about Julie. Julie's like, off in the corner where, who's that girl? God's in the book. Who's that girl down there with the YouTube channel? What is that talking? What did she talk? That's not the way it works. I just don't want her to put that out there for people. Um, what is love?

Julie McFadden 55:37
Well, I think God is love. I think be hard for me to define it, but I suppose, like, if we're gonna, if I'm gonna, like, bring it back to like hospice, I always say, like watching someone care for someone on hospice is like love in action. So like giving, freely, sitting with someone, even though you're really uncomfortable because you love them. So it's hard for me to dig us to define it, but a lot of times, like I see an action through other people's actions, like I see the love, and it's overwhelming. It's really overwhelming. It can overwhelm me sometimes, or like, I leave the house and cry, like I'll leave my patient's house and I go in my car and cry because I'm so overwhelmed by the feeling of love. That's beautiful. Oh my gosh, I'm sorry to like, not really ask. I'm not really answering your questions.

Alex Ferrari 56:34
No, that's perfect. No, you're answering them perfectly. It's fine. If you could ask God or Source one question, what would it be?

Julie McFadden 56:41
Will I be I'm curious about if I'll be born again, so I would ask if, like, will I be born again once I die, once I die, will I be born again? I'd love to know that I don't have, like, many questions for God. I just feel like it is God, is it all is everything, is acceptance, is the answer to all my problems today. So, like, I don't have many questions, but that's one, once I die, will I be born again?

Alex Ferrari 57:06
Fair enough. And what is the ultimate purpose of life?

Julie McFadden 57:09
I think, to be present with God at all times and see how your life unfolds.

Alex Ferrari 57:14
Beautiful answer, where can people find out more about you, your book nothing to fear, and your YouTube channel and all the work you're doing in this world.

Julie McFadden 57:22
Yeah. So you can find me on any platform that you enjoy, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Tiktok, at hospice nurse Julie. So the same name across all boards. So you also can go to hospicenursejulie.com and my book is really anywhere you get books. There's a audiobook which is me talking, which was way harder than I thought, Alex, but yes, so it's my voice, it's my voice, horrible audiobook. Yeah, yeah. It's audiobook, Kindle, hard copy. Basically, you can get it anywhere you get books, but you also could find it at hospicenursejulie.com There's links, there's international links.

Alex Ferrari 58:01
Yeah. Cool. Do you have any parting messages for the audience?

Julie McFadden 58:05
No, I think if there's anything you know, if you want to learn more. So like, I feel like we touched on a lot of things, and this doesn't, this is going to sound like a plug to my YouTube, I guess it kind of is. But really, my YouTube channel, like, covers all bases. Like, it covers like, the how to of to being like, how to be a caregiver, like, just like the logistics of that, right to like the the warm and fuzzy feelings of hospice. Like, the YouTube channel really covers all bases, and I think it's important to do both. So if you want to learn more, if you're like listening to this, and you want to learn more, I feel like that'd be the best place to start.

Alex Ferrari 58:40
Julie, it has been a pleasure and honor speaking to you. Thank you so much for not only being on the show, but for the amazing work you're doing to help souls cross over, and the work that you do, you know all the time in hospice and and helping the world awaken with the work that you're doing. So thank you so much.

Julie McFadden 58:58
Thank you. Thank you.