US Military Doctor REVEALS Why The Rosicrucians’ TEACHINGS Were HIDDEN for YEARS! with Dr. Robert Gilbert

The interplay of the material and spiritual worlds can be a labyrinthine journey, one that requires both courage and clarity. On today’s episode, we welcome Dr. Robert Gilbert, a distinguished scholar who has navigated these realms with both precision and depth. Dr. Robert Gilbert’s unique perspective offers a bridge between the tangible and the intangible, making the esoteric accessible and the mystical rational.

Dr. Gilbert begins by unpacking the intricacies of the Rosicrucian tradition, a path that beckons individuals to connect directly with spiritual realities without the mediation of external organizations. This tradition, he explains, is a metamorphosis of ancient spiritual practices that emphasize personal spiritual initiation. “There is a pathway in the western spiritual tradition for a type of independent spiritual initiation,” he says, highlighting the essence of self-empowerment and direct connection to the divine.

In our conversation, Dr. Gilbert delves into the historical context of the Rosicrucians, noting how they emerged as a modern iteration of ancient Egyptian and Kabbalistic traditions. He elucidates how the Rosicrucians aimed to liberate individuals from the rigid structures of organized religion, allowing for a more direct and personal spiritual experience. This liberation is mirrored in the Rosicrucian practices that encourage the development of subtle bodies and spiritual perception.

One of the core teachings of the Rosicrucian tradition is the concept of developing the heart as an organ of spiritual perception. Dr. Gilbert discusses how the heart, viewed as the center of the chakra system, can be activated through specific exercises, leading to a profound transformation in one’s spiritual journey. “The Rosicrucian approach is different… it’s a center-out approach,” he explains, emphasizing the importance of a balanced and structured spiritual development.

Dr. Gilbert also touches upon the significance of the Yuga cycles, aligning them with the Rosicrucian teachings. He notes that according to the teachings of both the Vedic tradition and Rudolf Steiner, we have transitioned out of the Kali Yuga, a period marked by darkness and materialism, into a new era of spiritual awakening. This shift is reflected in the explosion of spiritual knowledge and technological advancements in the modern age.


  1. Direct Spiritual Connection: The Rosicrucian tradition emphasizes the importance of direct spiritual connection, free from the constraints of external organizations. This allows for a more personal and profound spiritual experience.
  2. Development of Subtle Bodies: A key aspect of spiritual growth is the development of the subtle bodies, particularly the heart as an organ of spiritual perception. This balanced approach facilitates a deeper understanding of non-physical realities.
  3. Transition from Darkness to Light: Aligning with the Yuga cycles, we are moving from an age of darkness and materialism into a period of spiritual awakening. This transition is marked by an increased availability of spiritual knowledge and technological advancements.

In this enlightening conversation, Dr. Gilbert underscores the importance of balancing rational understanding with spiritual perception. He cautions against the pitfalls of materialistic dogma and highlights the necessity of integrating non-physical realities into our understanding of the world. “If you’re not extremely grounded and extremely rational… you’re going to end up distorting these realities,” he warns, stressing the need for a balanced approach to spiritual development.

Concluding our discussion, Dr. Gilbert offers a profound insight: “The ultimate purpose of life is to develop our consciousness and structure our subtle bodies so that we continue on our evolutionary pathway.” His words serve as a reminder of the delicate dance between the material and spiritual realms, and the continuous journey of growth and evolution.

Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Robert Gilbert.

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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 418

Robert Gilbert 0:00
If you're not extremely grounded and extremely rational, if you begin to open up your perception to the fact that we are surrounded by spiritual realities, we're surrounded by spiritual beings all the time. If you have any type of sensationalistic or fear based, or any type of reaction in the mind, you know, the, the whole problem of the reactionary nature of our emotions, things like that, you're going to end up distorting these realities. And it's gonna be something that makes you feel somewhat unmoored, and physical reality is a certain act of courage to like, go against the modern culture, and say, No, I understand. And I maybe even directly perceive non physical realities for all of the things that will come at you and all of the opportunities that will be denied you within the structure of modern science medicine etcetera.

Alex Ferrari 1:07
I like to welcome the show, Dr. Robert Gilbert. How you, doing, Robert?

Robert Gilbert 1:10
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 1:11
Thank you so much for coming on the show. And I'm so excited to talk to you. I've been I've been a fan of yours for a while. I've been watching your show on Gaia. And it's it really is, you have a very unique perspective on the universe, sir. So I'm looking forward to diving into some new areas, I wasn't really aware of new teachings and things that I just was not aware of until I ran into your, into your work. So my very first question to you, sir, is who were the roofs, and I'm going to try to say that they properly Rosicrucians?

Robert Gilbert 1:47
Yes, sometimes people refer to it as Rosicrucian. But Rosicrucian kind of emphasizes that the name refers to a rose cross. And so Rosicrucian the Rosicrucians, in my view, are a modern metamorphosis of ancient spiritual traditions, such as the ancient Egyptian, which went into the Jewish Kabbalah and the Greek Kabbalah, then into the holy grail tradition in Europe. And then, around the 1500s 1600s, really publicly, for the 1600s, you had the revealing that there were a group of initiates in Central Europe that refer to themselves as a Rosicrucians. And there began to be texts published about them in the early 1600s, and what would currently be the Czech Republic, Germany, things like this. And essentially, they were making known that there is a pathway in the western spiritual tradition, for a type of independent spiritual initiation, where you didn't have to join a particular church or a particular external control group, to go through higher levels of spiritual development, that they were really about direct connection of the individual to the spiritual sources that we're all innately connected to, but may not have, really any consciousness of. So that was the foundation of the idea of the Rosicrucians with the public, because there was no external organization you could go to, or join or things of that kind. At a later time, people began to create external Rosicrucian organizations, mostly based on Masonic models. So you go through various grades of initiation and things, in my view, that's already starting to lose the original impulse of what the Rosicrucian tradition was about, which again, was this direct connection to spirit not through any external organization. And so many times in modern day when people hear that I'm involved in Rosicrucian studies, they'll give the name of a particular Rosicrucian organization and say, Oh, you're a member of this organization, whatever this external organization is, and the US or Europe or something like this, and I say, No, I, I'm not a part of any external organization. And that's not really my preference in this type of work. It's really about that original Rosicrucian impulse to connect directly to spirit. And you can learn from other people there can be elder brothers or sisters on the path sort of idea. But it's not a question of ever giving your power away to somebody else or being under the control of an external organization.

Alex Ferrari 4:45
It sounds it sounds very, almost like a philosophy kind of like Buddhism in that sense. There's not like a centralized Vatican for Buddhism, but in generally speaking is more of a philosophy and, and by the way, in the West As be speaking about talking directly to source, I'm assuming they were they were chased and burned at the stake and, you know, drawn and quartered. And it was not a good time to be throwing these kinds of thoughts out there. Am I wrong?

Robert Gilbert 5:18
Well, this is connected to this being the time period, where you could begin to come forward with an independent spiritual orientation. Because the power of the Catholic Church to arrest torture kill anyone who didn't subjugate themselves to their control, was beginning to weaken. And so particularly in Central Europe, that was the case, Martin Luther and all these things. And also, it was true in Britain, which had already broken loose and have developed the Anglican Church as their own form, that was nowhere near as suppressive and didn't have an inquisition the way that the Catholic Church did. So there was beginning to open up more freedom for this. And also, one of the things in the Rosicrucian tradition is that many texts and public documents would be written by anonymous, they wouldn't really use their name to become known publicly, because it was understood that it's actually a bit of a sacrifice, and not a great thing for the individual to become known publicly, for this type of spiritual work. Today, people kind of see that as Oh, I'd love to have that as a job, just be able to talk about spiritual things and, you know, have some level of charismatic authority with spiritual things. But in reality, if somebody was really developed in this path, being known to the public is always quite a sacrifice. And let me just mention briefly, when you compare it to Buddhism, it is similar to Buddhism in the sense that you mentioned which is that there's like no one Pope of Buddhism. But Buddhism is much more organized, and that there are particular orders, there are particular groupings within it, whether it's Maha Jana, or Adrianna, or these types of things. And those can be very hierarchical structures, and you have an external place, you could go, that's a kind of a temple structure, like, let's say you're living in Tibet, you know, you can go to some type of temple structure, and you could go through a process where you were initiated, and you go to a certain level that you'd be initiated again. And for the Rosicrucians. Again, the original impulse was one in which there was really no external organization. Many have been formed over time. But again, I think they took on much more Masonic types of characteristics, and often lost that bull direct connection of the individual the Spirit without going through any human intermediary or control structure.

Alex Ferrari 7:46
Is there is that how do they pass this wisdom along through generation after generation? Are there ancient texts? Is there a Bible esque book for this kind of wisdom that they that they were teaching?

Robert Gilbert 8:00
There are older books in the Rosicrucian tradition, that really started the whole thing, like there's one called fama. Fraternal taught us and there are others, written in various European languages. But at this point, they consider to be quite old. So people don't work with them very much and a very full of veiled language. So if you don't understand the thing very well, to start with, you may not get very far in them. The real as far as I'm concerned, revelation of the deeper knowledge to the public in a form that can be easily understood, didn't happen until the early 1900s, with the work of Rudolf Steiner, so Rudolf Steiner, as what would be, essentially that time, Austrian, and in the German speaking world, he began to lecture publicly and teach publicly about Rosicrucian mysteries. And as far as I'm concerned, he's essentially the most highly advanced Rosicrucian to ever make himself public. And so there's dozens of written works that he did. And then there's a gigantic amount of collected lectures. So Rudolf Steiners corpus is over 350 volumes. It's a kind of modern Encyclopedia of esoteric knowledge. Until then, it was just fragments coming out from various people about Rosicrucian knowledge. And it was really a kind of inner school, in the sense that people were on their own spiritual trajectory, they might find some external texts. By the 1700s. There were some books like The Secret symbols of the Rosicrucians that would communicate information in the form of sacred geometric images with a lot of embedded information in the imagery. But again, it really wasn't until the early 1900s with the work of Rudolf Steiner, that the really deeper knowledge of the tradition was given to the public. Otherwise it might be a person working with another person on a personal level. And a lot of it was really done in what would be considered to be inner are playing work, people are going through their own personal development. And they begin to connect to other people in the tradition of the column of spirit, and through the spiritual beings they're connected to, that are then connected to these other people. Now, for people that don't have a lot of experience in direct spiritual development, this seems like some type of fantasy, but it was very much the way that they operated, working often alone, but connected in higher non physical ways to a larger impulse.

Alex Ferrari 10:29
Now, we've been speaking about these the Rosicrucian so much now what about the wisdom and the knowledge and all this stuff. What is their contribution to our understanding of ourselves and of the universe?

Robert Gilbert 10:41
So what we have in the Rosicrucian tradition is really a modern updating of ancient knowledge. I personally very much consider the knowledge within Rosicrucianism, which is considered to be somewhat of a Hermetic tradition, meaning that it goes back to ancient Egypt and potentially even before, and that it's connected to this type of perennial wisdom. And it's open to acquiring knowledge from every corner of the world, as not highly dogmatic in that sense, we can get knowledge from multiple traditions and multiple periods of time. But in the modern forum, what it's done is it's updated that knowledge and information into a form that can be easily understood by people in a modern context. So for example, if you took a modern person in the United States, and you put them 5000 years ago, in an Egyptian temple, to undergo initiation, they would be quite lost, because all of the cultural references they were working with, and even the state of consciousness of that time, were very, very different. So at that time, if you showed that there are particular types of beings serving Jehovah Tay, whom the Greeks called both as a type of spiritual leader of the Egyptian tradition, and they showed that this being is represented as a baboon, if we in our modern culture saw that would make no sense to us whatsoever, why are you selling these beings as a baboon, but for people that actually saw baboons in their culture, they knew that there was a type of impulse inside of them that when the sun rose in the morning, the baboons would stand up on their hind legs and raise their arms up. And they would call out, similar to the motions of the actions of the priests in the temple, when the sun raw emerged over the horizon in the morning, and a huge wave of energy passed over the earth, that could be leveraged for spiritual purposes. And so the Rosicrucian tradition is updating the core knowledge from these earlier times, again, into a format that makes sense to people right now. So for practical aspects of this Rudolf Steiner, personally developed a whole healing method that's referred to today as Anthroposophical. Medicine. It's medicine that very much uses homeopathic potent possession, and other types of energetic methods for a deep healing. And there's actually many practitioners of it, even hospitals that are Anthroposophical medical hospitals in Germany. And a person has to be a standard medical doctor before they can even undergo the anthroposophic medical training. Then there's also the branch of it, that is the modern Waldorf schools, so Waldorf as a worldwide movement, of a type of free progressive childhood education that has very strong artistic elements and very deep classical education. And that comes directly from the Rosicrucian impulses on the work of Rudolf Steiner, and also biodynamic agriculture as a kind of supercharged, holistic agriculture that actually revitalizes and recharges the earth, rather than depleting it the way that we have today with the use of chemical fertilizers, things like this. So sometimes people get confused, because these seems to be very different impulses. There's agriculture, there's education, there's medicine, but it's because the Rosicrucian knowledge covers a vast amount of knowledge. And it can really be pulled from for all types of purposes. And so another very important part I would just mentioned before I end this little bit, is that what the Rosicrucian Tradition holds is a series of practices that one can do to develop on the spiritual path, the most important of which is one that I cover in my online course called Essential teachings and practices of spiritual science, and often referred to by Rudolf Steiner in the Rosicrucian tradition as the six basic exercises. I teach it in a somewhat expanded format as the six essential exercises, but essentially to understand to give you a practical example, how this might differ from some other approaches. In the old Eastern traditions, there would be an activation of the base of the spine energies first, and then start activating the shock was from the base up. And so this was often connected to Kundalini yoga and kundalini awakening, but you open the lower chakra first and then have them ascent. Then in the Western tradition, particularly in post Christian times, there became the up the, the up down method, where you're activating the crown chakra first, and then moving down through the chakras until you activate the base. Well, the Rosicrucian approach is different from either of those. It's a center out approach. So one of the very important concepts in the Rosicrucian tradition is that when they say in, let's say, the Indian Vedic tradition, that the human heart has 12, lotus petals, every Lotus petal is connected to a siddha. Or what in Sanskrit they refer to as a power that a human being can develop a spiritual power. So to develop the lotus petals of the heart requires specific exercises or raised to use your consciousness. So Steiners take on this was that six of the 12 lotus petals have already been developed in previous rounds of evolution. And where we are right now we have six other lotus petals that we need to develop through specific exercises in order to activate the heart. Now, not only is the hardest spiritual organ of perception, that really makes a massive change in the person's spiritual development, it also acts as an organizing center for the entire body of subtle energy. So what happens with many people starting on a spiritual path is they're just doing kind of scattershot, different types of spiritual practices that they've heard from here or there. But not necessarily understanding how those practices structure their subtle body in a way that is very fundamental for spiritual development. And so the Rosicrucian take on it is that you need to create a organizing center in the body of energy, and then everything you do can be organized and come into a orderly formation, that stable that you can take with you through the gate of death, and into future incarnations. Based on developing this organizing Center, which must be the heart, it's the center of the chakra system. And that, again, if we don't do this, then it's hard to make the type of permanent progress that we can, if we do create that organizing center. So that would just be an example of practical knowledge. As far as spiritual development,

Alex Ferrari 17:32
Let me ask you this. I assume you are familiar with the Yuga's the Yuga cycles. And a lot of my audience knows the you know, the concept of the things 24,000 or 26,000 years I always forget, but a circle of it's kind of like a explain the Yuga's.

Robert Gilbert 17:48
The equinox?

Alex Ferrari 17:49
Yes, exactly, exactly. So we, from my understanding of the Yuga's, let's say the top of the, for lack of a better word, the top of the Yuga's, we are enlightened beings. And then we start to forget, we start to forget till we get to, let's say, the Dark Ages, which is as low as we can get, then we start coming back up towards the enlightenment, from my understanding, we are on the upward, upward turn right now. That's why there's such a rapid growth in technology and consciousness and understanding that we are actively going through it seems to be going so so fast. I'm bringing this up because it How does the Yuga's affect this 12 pedal idea. Because if you said there were six that through evolution, we have already activated, we're on our way up. So I'm assuming we're going to activate more and more of these pedals as we get up. But the next cycle is if there is a next cycle, which I assume there is, and we start going down again. Or we start to kind of forget again, do we lose those abilities as we get on so in other words, humanity at one point or another, let's say, for lack of a better word. In Atlantis, let's say we were if there was an Atlantis at that type of civilization, we were much more evolved, spiritually, we understood more subtle energies, we understood how to connect to source, the different realms that we can connect to. But as we got down here, we forgot most of that, and we're trying to relearn it. Have I made any sense whatsoever?

Robert Gilbert 19:13
Yes. So let me take this on piece by piece, please. So the first thing you're referring to is the called the precession of the equinoxes cycle, that our cosmic clock is always the relationship of celestial objects to the earth. So our day is the time it takes for the sun to go through one full cycle around us, or a month or a month is the time it takes for the moon to go through its full cycle, new moon, full moon, new moon again, it's all based on cosmological references. And so one of the larger time cycles is known as precession of the equinox, where where you would see the sun against the stars at the time of the vernal equinox every year. It would be in a particular degree of a particular constellation. Well, that position moves backwards, one degree for every 72 years. That means that the time it takes for the sun's apparent position of the vernal equinox to go through a whole 30 degrees of a 360 degree circle of the Zodiac 30 degrees, which would be one sign of the zodiac of the 12. That takes 2160 years. And so to go through all 12 signs of the zodiac is 25,920 years. And so this becomes a massive timing cycle. We need to think of all of this as a type of alchemical forming process, that we are being formed into a greater spiritual state through certain types of alchemical influences that are coming in, in every one of these 2160 year, so dynamical stages. And so, again, in history, we have we moved through the time of Aries. And that was then the time that we talked about the search for the golden fleece, and that we moved through, you know, various types of phases where Christianity with the fish symbol, of course, was the time for Pisces, because we're moving backward through the Zodiac and then people say, well, now we're in the Age of Aquarius, or other say we're, we're about to enter it, but we aren't quite there yet. Because there's different ways you can look at that cosmic clock. So this will then the stages of an alchemical process that we can actually see with the cosmological references because they are in our cloth. Now, this then leads to much larger time cycles that are described in the Vedic tradition, and refer to as the cycle of the four Hugo's, this can get very involved. And this is also something where there are debates within the Vedic tradition, about like, what timing cycles are accurate for this. So again, just to try to keep it as simple as possible. The many aspects of the Vedic tradition say we're still in the dark age, we're still in the Kali Yuga. And we haven't really started transitioning to the age of light yet. But in one of the most advanced parts of the Vedic tradition, which is the kriya yoga tradition, coming from what's considered to be one of the greatest avatars in the Vedic tradition, barbituric salutely is that according to Baba Ji is teaching his direct disciples rebuked as far wrote in the 1800s of book called The Holy science. And in the holy science, he talks about that the final end of Kali Yuga, is 1899. Now, very interestingly, not using their timing cycle, but a different timing cycle. Rudolf Steiner for the Rosicrucian tradition gives the exact same date 1899 as the end of the Kali Yuga. And so although there are parts of a tradition that say no, it's going to last for calibers are lasts way longer, both that very advanced Somalian tradition, and there was a crucial ins agree on the 1899 date. Now, that's the time that we really saw the explosion of modern technology. But it's also the time that we saw an explosion of free spirituality. Because until then, if you wanted to gain a lot deep spiritual initiation, knowledge, and practices, you would essentially have to join one particular organization for the rest of your life, you'd be committed to them, they would give you little bits and pieces as you went along year after year, leading it or whatever their particular goal was. But at that time, 1899, going into the 1900s, we had an explosion of free spirituality, where previously hidden information from many traditions began to become public. And so in the last 120 odd years, we've had an amazing release of previous hidden information. One example I'll often cite for this, like in addition to the previously hidden Tibetan information, one of the most advanced internal alchemy systems in the world to activate and develop your internal energy and your spiritual structuring is within the Chinese tradition with the Dallas. So the Dallas advanced internal alchemy knowledge was completely hidden until the 1980s. I remember back in the early 1980s, there was one person who would teach you some of the advanced Dallas style chemical formulas in Southern California, but they demanded to be paid in $10,000 in gold, to show you one of these formulas. And now you can buy books for 1695 that explain those formulas to you. So this is another part of that end of the Kali Yuga. We're having a massive release of information from many different traditions, but the problem As it's coming out, in a type of broken, piecemeal, fragmentary form. And so for people who are on this independent spiritual path, which is an A growing number of people who are willing to learn from any direction, but they have to have enough knowledge and understanding to put the fragments together into a workable path, that actually leads to a restructuring of the subtle body, and of course, spiritual development, that becomes stable, and that they can take with them through the gate of death into the next incarnation, instead of just being transitory. So tying these pieces together, we're at a particular stage, that from the yoga perspective is moving from the Dark Age toward time of light. And from the precession of the equinox cycle is moving from the Piscean age into the Aquarian Age. So either way you look at it, there's a type of new alchemical structuring happening. And again, when we look for the signs of this and external culture, we can see this release from all these different sectors of what was previously very hidden and very advanced information. But often the information is distorted or fragmented. So the challenge today for people on the independent spiritual path is to have enough contextual understanding, to put the pieces together to make a workable system that works for them. And whatever their particular goal is. And that's really why I created the VESA Institute, it was to give people in a free manner, that you don't have to join a particular organization for the rest of your life or have anyone else in control of you to be able to make accessible information and practices in a more coherent context. So people can make informed choices because we have very limited time and energy, we have to make informed choices about what spiritual practices am I going to do? What spiritual information do I need to study so that we can create a pathway that actually leads us to our goal.

Alex Ferrari 26:59
And this explosion of information is right in line with the explosion of technology. I mean, once the internet, once the internet was brought into into existence, the information world the Information Age became apparent. And now these conversations, which in the 1980s would have been in a back room, somewhere in the back of a bookstore, somewhere maybe if you're lucky, in an aisle is now being heard by millions of people. And that's bonds, little drops is like the like the elephants Buddhist or Dallas was you drop the stone and in the lake and the ripples are happening, this conversation is dropping millions of stones and millions of lakes where they could go off and buy a book or buy a course, or look for other information where it's not just limited to your neighborhood as it used to be. And the church that was in your neighborhood, essentially correct?

Robert Gilbert 27:52
Absolutely. So that's definitely what we're seeing right now is that millions upon millions of people are voting with their feet, that they're not going to have an external guru that they give their power away to, that they're going to learn from multiple sources and put together a path that works for them. And so again, this is a blessing and a curse. It gives us tremendous freedom, but it also accentuates our responsibility. If you join, there's so many systems in the world where you could join and you'd have a guru, and they tell you what to do every step of the way. And that's pretty much guaranteed to take you to a particular place. It won't guarantee how far you go, but at least has a pathway you can follow and somebody to tell you, Okay, now do this, now do that. But if we don't have that, it puts a tremendous responsibility onto us to be able to understand contextually how all of these fragments fit together into a larger context. And so context and discernment is something that we have to focus on. And we have to develop as individuals on the path of independence, spiritual initiation.

Alex Ferrari 28:57
Is this why people are leaving organized religions in such droves as they used to, I'm a recovering Catholic, so I can say these things. But, but a lot of these power, these established powerful organizations throughout history, have been losing power every year. And it seems to be much more rapid now than it ever been. I mean, I remember growing up in the 80s, and I went to Catholic school and everything like that, and it was still there was still strong, there's still pretty Catholic Church was still pretty powerful, but to where it is today, in just a very short minuscule amount of time in the history of the Catholic Church. It has lost a tremendous amount of power. And again, and I always say this, I always say this as a side note, there are people who need to go down that road, and it brings them joy, and it brings them understanding and I wouldn't be where I am today, unless I would have been introduced to Catholicism and the ideas of a higher power of a God of angels of spirits in the center of things. But I used that information to find my own path. But it was an introduction. Without that introduction, I don't know where I would have been today. So it does have a purpose. But it doesn't have the same purpose as it did 100 years ago, 200 years ago, would you agree?

Robert Gilbert 30:14
Absolutely. So one thing that we're just seeing empirically out in the world today is that whatever tradition it is, there's going to be certain strengths of that tradition, certain things that they're strong on, and that they'll impart to the people in that tradition, whether it's a type of self discipline, or a type of spiritual practice they can do or whatever it might be, maybe it's a community that they can have as a supportive community can be any number of things. But what we're seeing with this expansion, today toward an independent spirituality, is that, in many cases, things that were extremely corrupt in these systems for a long time, and very hidden, and tolerated by the leadership of these organizations is getting revealed. And once you see the level of corruption, then it becomes hard to give all of your power away to such an organization from that power on. And then it becomes a thing of, well, what is a value within that particular tradition, because it's not a matter of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There's all kinds of things that are in there that have validity, and may be quite important. So again, contextual knowledge is very important. So as the Catholic Church became the dominant religious institution in Europe, and became more corrupt over time, to the point that folks who are called Pope Pius or Pope Innocent, were anything but pious and innocent. And if you study their history is it's absolutely grotesque. And these types of things, we have to realize that part of that corruption process was losing many of the original teachings of Christianity. So for example, if you go back to the original church, Father origin, writing in the third century AD and Alexandria, Egypt, his masterpieces, like his book on first principles, you know, he's describing their reincarnation, reincarnation was a Christian teaching, until a later Catholic church council took it out of Christianity, they refer to it as the transmigration of souls. And so you've lost something pretty essential. If you don't understand that this life is one bead on the chain. And it's not the end, many other traditions didn't take out. Reincarnation, from their teachings, there's really only the three monotheistic traditions, it grew out of Judaism than yet Christianity and Islam. The external aspects of these three religions don't teach reincarnation. But the internal initiate forums of these traditions have always known that reincarnation is a fact, you can find cabbalistic rabbis who talk about reincarnation, but it wasn't something for the public. But virtually every other tradition in the planet other than the monotheistic traditions, taught reincarnation, and particularly in the east, they still do. So if you're a Tibet, and you just kind of take for granted like, oh, yeah, I've been here before, and I'm gonna come back again. So there is a whole aspect of this about what do we take from the tradition that's worthwhile, but what dogmas that we had faced, we had to face and we had to work through, particularly the fear programming, and guilt programming that they often from a very young age put into people, which made it very difficult to overcome their psychological domination. These are things that we have to get very clear about, if that's what you grew up in, and then see, well, all of these very important things were left out, I can take these valuable components that were valid within the tradition, but I no longer accept their authority. And I'm an independent spiritual being that can connect directly to spirit and pull on that knowledge from that tradition plus many other things, too, that they check out of spiritual reality. For their own control purposes.

Alex Ferrari 34:12
Yes, the Council of Nicaea and a few other ones I did a lot of the things you're talking about, yeah. Now, what part does meditation play in for the Rosicrucians?

Robert Gilbert 34:23
Well, one of the things I like to make clear for people is that different traditions have different strengths. And so they're structuring the subtle bodies of their initiates in different ways. Now, one of the great strengths of the Rosicrucian tradition is the cognitive aspect. There's a lot of focus upon clear, contextual understanding. Because if you don't have a solid basis of spiritual knowledge, or spiritual science, then you don't have the context to be able to make real evaluations of what is is a distorted piece of spiritual information or what's not, or to be able to choose the particular practices that you need to move forward. So the Rosicrucian tradition has always had a great strength in the cognitive aspect. Because the Western world today is very cognitive, we're very head oriented. But actually, to be on the independent path, you need to have a lot of intellect, intelligence, contextual understanding, because that's the only way that you can make an informed decision, if you know enough to understand how the pieces fit together. So within that, it's not just a matter of having an intellectual book knowledge, it's a matter of having that contextual knowledge of realities in the material world around us. But then developing direct perception of non physical realities, through practices that will begin to activate the latent organs of spiritual perception within our subtle bodies. And so there are many exercises within the Rosicrucian tradition for developing what I just simply like to refer to as the mind power. So with the understanding in many bodies of work, that the essential foundation of all existence is consciousness, and that the Godhead is essentially an ocean of consciousness that we all are swimming in and partake in and come from and return to. Then for every individual droplet from that ocean, which is us, every microcosm of that macrocosm, we need to activate the latent organs of spiritual perception in our own subtle body to start perceiving and understanding the non physical world, which is going to be our home once we pass through the gate of death, with as much clarity because we understand the physical phenomenal world around us, but to have enough understanding of the realities of the physical world, that this does not become a kind of illusory, fantasy, World of non physical realities, but really opens up our inner sight, to perceive the non physical realities are different planes of existence, to remember our past incarnations, to understand our spiritual destiny, to perceive the spiritual beings that are around us and helping us. So that's a major part of this to learn how to develop the mind power of both in being clear and grounded and rational in the physical world, while also having very advanced potential to perceive these non physical realities.

Alex Ferrari 37:31
I have to ask you to answer I mean, you you're a doctor, you spend time in the military, you know, you seem like a rational guy. By all stretches imagination, and yet, you're talking about things that are very esoteric with spiritual beings around you in different realms and, and chakra systems and, and ancient teachings. How did you? How did you balance the two? Um, because I'm assuming you weren't always like that meaning and understanding under this curiosity, this understanding, you might have started down one path and this other path kind of opened up to you? How do you balance the two sides? If you were, you have the intellect, but yet, you're still open to the esoteric as a lot of people who are rational and watch the show that like, this is ridiculous. This is crazy spiritual beings. But that's why I love having guests like you who are started in a very grounded place, and yet, still hold the grounded ideas, but yet are open to do and it's a beautiful balance of the two because as a human, we have to have the balance of the material. And the spiritual. Would you agree?

Robert Gilbert 38:42
Yes. So I think the challenge comes in with it's not the ability to have logical, linear rational thinking that makes us materialistic. It's the culture that we're in. And what happened in historical development were to try to get free of the coercive power of the Catholic Church in the West, the people that used to be natural scientists and got suppressed or killed by the Inquisition. In the beginning, they couldn't do free scientific inquiry. They had to get to a place where they created something says like, well, we're going to completely put all non physical realities aside, there's nothing but the material plane, screw everything spiritual, everything religious, that's nothing but a control structure. And so modern science developed within this materialistic framework that essentially became a new religion. Now, this has happened to many other religions, that somebody has some great understanding some great awakening, and they say, Oh, well, that old religion is outdated or it's too suppressive or something's there here's another fantastic religion, but then they just become the new dogmatic religion. And this has happened throughout human history. That exact same thing happened here. Modern materialistic an atheistic science is nothing but a new religion. And that as at least as suppressive, although it may not kill people, the way that happened in the past, it still does its best to destroy anyone that's daring to talk about anything outside of their dogmatic orthodoxy, which says that nothing beyond the material plane exists, where an accident of chemical evolution, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that any really logical linear thinker to say there's too much evidence for what they call self organization, for it all, just to be hand happening randomly, it doesn't even make any sense to really open up to perceive that the material is just one level of this, whenever any person becomes sufficiently intelligent, whenever any person becomes sufficiently on, dominated by this type of mental programming, and begins to open their consciousness, they will inevitably begin to perceive there are things beyond the physical plane, including the fact that their consciousness is not completely limited to their physical body. And so, we are at the time today as part of this movement from the Kali Yuga, which at its end was like so incredibly dogmatic have created this terrible, again, materialistic science that we have today materialistic science and medicine, that we're opening up to where more and more highly intelligent and very contextually rich, understanding people are needing to integrate the non physical realities to have a true model of who am I? Why am I here? What am I here for in this particular incarnation. And also, it actually requires being very grounded, and logical and linear, to undertake an independent path of spiritual initiation. It's absolutely essential. And so Rudolf Steiner, once referred to, for example, developing a modern form of clairvoyance is similar to a highly controlled form of psychosis. So if you're not extremely grounded, and extremely rational, if you begin to open up your perception to the fact that we are surrounded by spiritual realities, we're surrounded by spiritual beings all the time. If you have any type of sensationalistic or fear based, or any type of reaction in the mind, you know, the, the whole problem of the reactionary nature of our emotions, things like that, you're going to end up distorting these realities. And it's gonna be something that makes you feel somewhat unmoored in physical reality. It's a certain act of courage to like, go against the modern culture, and say, No, I understand. And I maybe even directly perceive non physical realities for all of the things that will come at you and all of the opportunities that will be denied you within the structure of modern science, medicine, etc. Once you say this, because then you're a heretic, you're cast out of the church of materialism. But it's the only way forward. It's it's kind of like I heard a statement one time about rules in relationships. And it basically said that relationships that don't have love, have to have a lot of rules. But relationships that have a lot of love, don't need and cannot tolerate those kinds of rules, because it makes it less alive. And it's the same thing here, your active, discerning mind. If you're at a certain stage of development, you simply can't tolerate and you can no longer accept that religious dogma of materialism at that point forward. But it doesn't mean that you have to just flop back to the old way of well, now I'm going to become a devout, whatever. Right? That's this kind of an opposite pendulum swing. And we see pendulum swings all the time, things went too far this way. I'm not dogmatic, whatever. And then well, now I'm a complete materialistic atheist. It's like, Well, neither of those are balanced. Let's see if we can come back to the center. And it's much more helpful to always think in terms of really everything in life, not as this is good. And this is bad as an opposite polarity, but good is in the center. And what would be metaphorically speaking bad is an unbalanced polarity to either side, a spirituality that becomes ungrounded and illusory, or materialism that becomes so confining that you lose all understanding of your own potential.

Alex Ferrari 44:49
So and then quantum physics though, is kind of a a thorn in the side of materialism right now, and has been for the last 100 odd years, but really lately, I mean, I've, I talked to I was talking to a plumber the other day, who came over. And we had a, we had a concept we were talking about quantum physics and the split the split the splits, tests, I forgot the name of it. But you know when talking about, yeah, and these kinds of things that we're talking about things that a plumber shouldn't really be talking about, but yet, it's in the ether. So it is starting to shake the church of materialism without question.

Robert Gilbert 45:32
Absolutely. And, you know, I found so many advanced scientists and things that privately do a lot of their own esoteric research and have a very active spiritual life. But they can never say anything about it publicly. Because just like any dogmatic religion, they'll be punished, and they'll lose their employment and all these things, if you're here to talk about it. Yes, quantum physics, you know, it kind of unraveled materialism. Back at the beginning of the quantum physics revolution with the discovery of blackbody radiation, and then the two slit experiment you were talking about where a photon with the slits, the upshot of the experiment is that they found that light is both a wave and a particle. Whereas in materialism, something has to be either this or that, it can't be two very different things at the same time, but in reality, it is just like we're a particle. I'm a particle in my physical body right here, but I'm also a wave. And I can exist outside of this physical body in a wave form. So once they discovered that, and they began to have to make all of these quantum modifications to the mechanics of life, then it really opened up quite a bit. So if you go into the deeper aspects of great early quantum physicists like Heisenberg, Heisenberg, in his books is talking about very advanced spiritual concepts from the old, platonic and Pythagorean schools of Greece. He's constantly referring to him as the only way he can understand quantum physics is understanding it from the perspective of these old spiritual schools. And then you have, you know, these wonderful texts by modern professors of physics like Amit Goswami, and his book The self aware universe that says all the evidence of physics points to the foundation of the world is not an atom, because we found out the atom is 99.9999% empty space. And it's all a vibrational field. He says that all the evidence points to that is the field of consciousness. And so yes, anyone who takes that work seriously, is going to see that materialism has already begun to be decayed by the findings of quantum physics. But again, they do their best to come up with all types of nonsense that they have no empirical proof for whatsoever, such as the fact that all of their calculations about the cosmos don't work out such say, Oh, well, it's because there's dark energy. And there's dark matter and say, Oh, what's the experimental evidence for dark matter and dark energy? Well, there's absolutely none. But it's the only way it could be and preserve some idea of materialism.

Alex Ferrari 48:08
So it's a quantum it's the equivalent of the Boogeyman. Is there a boogeyman out there? Yes, there obviously is a boogeyman. Well, what kind of dark Boogeyman is there? Is there a proof of a doubt? No, of course not. But essentially the boogeyman, they had to create something, to keep the structure of a house of cards holding just a little bit longer. To the point where we all go, you're all ridiculous. Stop it.

Robert Gilbert 48:34
Unfortunately, dark matter and dark energy became the modern equivalent of the ancient teaching that the world was suspended on the back of a giant tortoise. And then when they said, well, what's the turtle pressing on that? And they said, well, it's tortoises all the way down. It's the exact same thing here. They can only keep the materialistic model in physics by saying that there's dark matter and dark energy, which they don't understand, and which is why none of their equations work out. But then if you say, Where's the evidence for it, there's no evidence whatsoever, they're grasping at straws, and they've been looking for evidence for that stuff for decades. It's not there, because they're ignoring all of the non physical realities actually create the physical reality.

Alex Ferrari 49:11
Now, you've also mentioned in your teachings, the subtle realms, and being able to connect with those subtle realms, can you explain what the subtle realms are and how we can connect to them?

Robert Gilbert 49:23
Yes. So the material plane is the plane that is course is the most dense, and it's a type of alchemical box that we get put into, if we say that the material world is the three dimensional world, then what you would learn and electrical engineering with the three axes of physical space and related to the propagation of electricity versus magnetism is you hold your fingers like this. So you've got up down, you got front back, you got side to side. That's a three axis cross that defines the three dimensional physical world. Well, if you put a boundary of one All at the end of those three axes, you get a box, you get a cube. And that's what our physical world is. This was referred to in ancient traditions as the black cube of space. We incarnate into this black cube, in the three dimensional world to go through a particular part of our alchemical structuring, as a spiritual being, developing our consciousness to higher and higher levels, and our abilities, our systems, our powers, to higher levels. So, we are put into this for a particular reason. But we're only here for a particular period of time, it's a pretty short period of time. And then, you know, we're, we're out of Gen pop, and we're back to the greater spiritual world, as we pass through the gate of death, which everybody who's materialists tries to ignore the fact that they are moving at a high rate of speed toward the time of death that they believe will be nothingness. And luckily for them, that's not true, but they're not developing their knowledge to be able to navigate that non physical world when they get there, because they know nothing about it, which is fairly absurd, but nonetheless happening to millions of people today. So, above the physical plane, do you have in multiple traditions, ways, terms, concepts to describe the realms that are non physical, but that are in a sense above, but are really within the physical plane, and that crystallize into physical matter and into the physical plane itself. So for example, the most common model in the west today, there are others and other traditions, most common model in the west today is the seven fold model coming from the theosophist. But the ossicles was the first international organization to have a meeting place for free exchange of spiritual knowledge from any tradition than from any source and that began in the late 1800s. And so above the physical plane, you have the level of the pure lifeforce vitality energy, called Qi and China Qi in Japan, prana in India, ether by the Greeks, and that pure dynamic lifeforce is non physical, but it's the difference between a living biological being and a dead corpse. That lifeforce is a real thing. And that became the foundation of the ultimate means of healing. So things like Chinese medicine, you correct the flow of energy and the meridians of the body, which are the channels for the dynamic life energy that chi to flow through. And if you correct that the body the physical part can heal itself. So that was true of virtually all types of ancient healing traditions. A lot of them were very connected to working with a dynamic lifeforce energy itself, not so much the physical body and the human being has within us within the physical body, a body of lifeforce energy that is referred to as the etheric body in the Western tradition today, and is referred to as the car in ancient Egypt. Then above that, you have the consciousness body, which starts with our emotional functioning as a subtle body, and then the mental functioning. And then the causal level, we're regenerating karma. And we have spiritual influences on our life outcomes and things like that, then you have the spiritual plane, where you have non physical beings that are doing all kinds of things behind the scenes is way more non physical beings and physical beings, and they're all around us all the time. And then at the highest level, all the multiplicity of these other levels for him back into the one, which would be for physics, the unified field, it's back to the one consciousness, the one being, where there's no division. So within ourselves, we have all of these things as subtle bodies. So we are actually participating on all those different higher planes simultaneously. But a person who's a complete materials has no organs of perception, except in the physical body. Right? As you go through certain types of spiritual practices, you can develop perception of the life energy. So let's say a person does tai chi or chi Kong or, you know, some aspects of yoga, these types of things, you become aware of the energy in the energy movement, then you do certain types of self help practices where you're beginning to observe your emotional reactivity, and the content of your thoughts and you begin to work with that. Now you're working directly with the emotional and mental plane, then you begin to do higher forms of practices to perceive the larger spiritual influences behind your entire life, or to directly open up the organs of spiritual perception, whether they're the ones in the head or elsewhere in the body of energy, to perceive the non physical beings etc. Because that's the kind of site you would need to not be deaf, dumb and blind once you've crossed the gate of death. So people often say, Well, I'm just going to ignore all the spiritual stuff, because at the time that I die, I guess I'll find out one way or the other But that's kind of like saying, I'm never going to exercise, I'm never going to learn anything. And just at some random point in the future, I'll end up somewhere and get everything with no effort whatsoever is simply not the case. If you don't spend the time here to get a understanding of non physical realities, that's going to affect your journey in the after death state. If you have not spent the time to develop in your subtle bodies, a direct perception of non physical realities, you don't have an Oregon in you to perceive higher non physical realities. It's like you didn't have eyes on the physical plane. So you end up going through the gate of death, like Helen Keller for the Spiritual World, deaf, dumb and blind. And that's why if you look at the old Egyptian documents, like the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which is really called the Book of coming forth into light, because the spiritual world is not some gloomy world of death. It is the true world of light that we came from this world is much gloomier compared to that one, unless you go to a very bad place and that non physical world, but the higher levels of that non physical world are incredible. And so they'll show you in these documents, a human being going through the gate of death, who's kind of bent over, like they're lame, and they can't see where they're going. And their arm is being taken by a higher being that's leading them through these doorways.

Alex Ferrari 56:24
And I'd love to hear want to ask you about the I wanted to go back to what you said about the 12 pedals and our ability to gain different abilities as we move down the spiritual path. The the legends of Yogi's and the myths of what Yogi's, were able to do levitation bio location, these kinds of things, as they ascend more and more into enlightenment, is that kind of aligning with the ideas of opening up these other pedals as a way to open up kind of these abilities. And so in other words, as you walk through the matrix Neo starts to understand the code, the higher and the spiritual path that you go, the more of the code, you start to see to the point where you're like, Oh, I understand what what we're here to do, I have not mastered this level. And I will either stay here and help others try to master it, or I will not go on to another level of existence past the material. Is that makes sense?

Robert Gilbert 57:24
Yes, absolutely. And, of course, what you just described as basically the bodhisattva vow in Buddhism, that once a person becomes more aware and more spiritually developed, they do have the choice that they don't have to keep incarnated on the physical plane, they could go off on a whole nother trajectory, in an army verse that is so much more vast than most people can even conceive of, it's wild. But they choose as an act of sacrifice or of service, to take the bodhisattva vow, where they pledge to continue to incarnate physically, to help all beings on the physical plane until all sentient beings attain enlightenment. And so that's actually baked into one of the deep parts of Esoteric Buddhism. And again, that's very much the case. But at the same time, we have to be very careful, because there's a lot of very loose talk about ascension these days, where people say, Well, I'm not going to come back after this incarnation. And you can tell that when they're saying it, there's a type of escapism in it. If they've really transcended physical incarnation. You don't mind being here, you've mastered all the lessons, it's as easy as anything, no matter how horrific you think the experience is, you've been through it enough times, it says, like, another day in the office, but when there's that type of fool to escape from the challenge, and you try to mask that in terms of Oh, I'm so spiritually developed, that I don't need to come back anymore. It's rarely true for the people that that's actually true for they rarely ever say that.

Alex Ferrari 59:01
Well, it's like playing the video game 1000 times and you know, every single corner of every video game every level up every tool, every sword, everything, and you could just run through it with with your eyes closed almost. Exactly. That's exactly how it is. Yeah, exactly. You can keep coming back and you can maybe challenge yourself in certain ways. But overall, you know how to work the game. Robert, I can talk to you for about another six hours. So we definitely will have you back. There's so many more things I want to ask you about. I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests, like what is your definition of living a fulfilled life?

Robert Gilbert 59:34
The definition of living a fulfilled life is finding the correct balance between love and freedom in the Rosicrucian tradition it's believed about. That's the two aspects that make us what we are as human beings. We're trying to find that right balance and mutual development of the love, where we unite and help and merge with other beings. But at the same time having the free have you done to be able to chart our own path and not being constrained? In every relationship? There's always that struggle, everybody's having their problems in the relationship. You want the love, but you also need your freedom. How do you find that correct balance? So that's one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is that I really think it comes down to can you answer? And are you on the path? To answer these three questions? Who am I? Why am I here? And what did I choose to do in this current incarnation? If you're clear on that your entire life changes and becomes so full of purpose, that you'll never be bored again.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:39
If you had a chance to go back in time and talk to little Robert, what advice would you give him?

Robert Gilbert 1:00:44
I basically advise him to invest more time and getting out of emotional reactivity to be more of a superconductor to all of life's challenges, and not get into all the various emotional worlds, which can be transcended with enough effort.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:01
How do you define God or Source?

Robert Gilbert 1:01:04
As the one the unified field that we all come from, and that we can all return to that this is essentially the state before duality, it's what we're seeking. And every romantic emotional sexual relationship is to merge with another being into one. Because we know that's where we've come from, and where we're going back to so the Greeks referred to God as the one. And that's very much the way that I understand the Godhead as well. What is love, love is the essential opening of the soul to where there's no separation between the self and other, and that you're open to that merging into the one and taking on the challenges of the other person as your own. And having as much love for them as you have for yourself. It really is the force of attraction. That is the essential thing that's going to take us out of isolation, and being able to unite back into the Godhead, the unified field source itself, and make our journey on the physical plane a pleasure rather than a misery. And what is the ultimate purpose of life, ultimate purpose of life is to be able to develop our consciousness and structure our subtle bodies so that we continue on our evolutionary pathway, dividing our time between our own self development and service to others, until it gets to the point that the two are so inextricably woven together. They're simply in a constant dance together.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:30
And where can people find out more about you and the amazing work you're doing in this world?

Robert Gilbert 1:02:34
At Vesica is spelled with a V, as in Victor And that's where you can find out about the online classes we offer. When we start offering live courses. Again, we'll put it there, and many resources online trainings available on that website.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:45
And if there was one book, to read, to introduce you to the Rosicrucian wisdom and ideas, what book would that be?

Robert Gilbert 1:03:07
The book has gone through a few different titles, but it's an older book of Rudolf Steiners. And then I think its latest titling, it's called founding a science of the Spirit. And this gives you a good overview of some of the core Rosicrucian concepts. There are a series of books called the Basic Books by Rudolf Steiner. But people are always told us the place to start with. But they can be quite challenging and founding a science of the Spirit is a much easier introduction. Or if you're coming from the perspective of a more conventional Christianity, and you want to start expanding that, then the book that I would recommend is called the burning bush, by Edward Smith. And it gives a fantastic insight to all the deeper spiritual aspects that are within the original Christian documents, and then give a whole series of Rosicrucian diagrams and maps of spiritual development in the back of the book.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:06
And do you have a parting message for the audience?

Robert Gilbert 1:04:08
We want to thank you for having me here today and listening to all of these things we've been talking about. It's such a great privilege to be able to talk to people about these things and to, if possible, Ignite, renewed interest in these things as something very real and very tangible. Remember, it's very, very possible to transform your life in an instant. And the key thing is always ask yourself, Who am I? Why am I here? And what did I choose to do in this incarnation, so that we don't fritter away our precious time in this physical body before it's gone. And we use it to really make a permanent movement forward in our evolution, which will both help us to get out of suffering and into much more pleasurable aspects of life and to be of higher service to those around us.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:59
Robert it has been a pleasure and honor talking to you, my friend you we definitely will have you back in the future. I appreciate you and everything you're doing to awaken the planet. So thank you my friend.

Robert Gilbert 1:05:08
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Great to be here.

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