Divine Encounters Episode 013 | Near-Death Experience Story
Ginette Biro, a medium who had sensed spirits since she was five, says she walked into surgery feeling strangely excited and woke up on the other side, standing with her grandmother on a grassy hill. In this Divine Encounters episode she tells Alex Ferrari about a summer picnic of loved ones, blueprints of her life laid out on a white table, a fuse box of choices, and a four-phrase message her higher self gave a recovery nurse.
Key Takeaways
- Ginette says she felt people in her room from about age five and had no family reference for it, which made her early years with the gift frightening.
- She says a guide’s voice in a hallway in her early twenties, and her cat’s reaction to him, pushed her to stop running and embrace mediumship.
- She describes her work as being like a translator or an interpreter, and explains how channeling differs, with her stepping aside so a spirit speaks directly.
- She says that before surgery she felt joyful excitement, and that once she was under, her grandmother met her on a grassy hill that felt completely real.
- She describes a summer picnic with loved ones from this life and from lifetimes before, and a white room at the edge of the universe where her council unrolled blueprints of her life.
- She says she was shown she could change junctures in her life blueprint, and that she changed several, including one about chronic illness.
- She says she saw her higher self’s awe at the human experience, chose to go back, and later used a note written in recovery to bring the whole memory back.
| Guest | Ginette Biro |
| Episode | Divine Encounters 013 |
| Background | A medium since childhood, she says, who worked by word of mouth for about a decade |
| What Ginette says happened | She left her body during a planned surgery |
| Where she says she went | A grassy hill, a summer picnic, and a white room at the edge of the universe |
| Who she met | Her grandmother (Baba), loved ones from many lifetimes, her council of guides, and her higher self |
| The message | We do design our life blueprint, and the human experience is deeply valuable to the soul |
| What followed | She says she dictated a note in recovery that restored the memory days later |
A Child Who Felt People in the Room
Ginette tells Alex she embraced her mediumship around the age of 20, but she can trace it back to age five. She remembers feeling people in her room, knowing there were invisible people there. She did not come from a family line of mediums, and there was no wise grandmother who would sage the house. She had no reference point for what was happening, and could not explain how she just knew.
She would go to bed at night, she says, aware of people standing around her, with the covers pulled over her head. A lot of her early years with the gift were scary, because she did not understand it. As she got older, she communicated with her grandmother after her grandmother had passed, but she told herself it was just a dream, and tried to logic it all away. Then she started hearing spirit, though it is not always an outside voice. Sometimes it is the voice in your own mind that is not your own thought. Trying to discern all that without a reference point led to a lot of anxiety by the time she was 17.
Underneath all that, she says, she was a normal kid doing sports, school and plays. But there was a bubbling aspect to her life that she wanted to understand and did not know where to take.
A Voice at the End of the Hallway
Around her early twenties, she says, she was in the house by herself folding laundry when that familiar prickly, bubbly sensation came on. Now she likes that feeling, she says, but when she was younger it gave her the heebie-jeebies. Then she heard a big, firm, masculine voice at the end of the hall calling her name and telling her to look down the hall. She admits she yelled every profanity she could think of.
When she turned her head, very slowly, she saw the guide she now thinks of as her lifetime guide. He was essentially telling her “now’s your time to actually get into this.” What changed things for her was her cat. The cat was sitting there staring up at him, tail wagging back and forth. In that moment Ginette knew the cat saw him, and so did she. That validated her, she says, and she stopped running from it. If you are curious about how people describe working with guides, see our glossary entry on mediumship.
Mediumship, Channeling and a Sense of Purpose
After that, Ginette says, she did mediumship readings for about a decade, all by word of mouth. She talked to her family very bluntly: I am seeing deceased people and spirits. No one told her not to, but they did not know what to make of it either. As she would say something that then happened, or validate something she could not have known from before she was born, it became more accepted. Only after her near-death experience, she says, did her guides tell her that if she was going back, she needed to step up and really share this.
She explains the difference between her work and channeling. “I’m like a translator or an interpreter,” she says of mediumship. She hears spirit and relays it. With channeling, she steps out of the way, so the voice comes directly through hers. The first time was during a reading, when a spirit asked, “Do you mind if I just kind of direct through you?” Ginette told her client she was going to channel. That is where she learned you “just move to the side.” Our glossary entry on channeling explains the term. The higher the frequency of the being, she says, the less she remembers in the moment.
She says her guides told her there were many lifetimes of preparation leading to this one, and that everyone with open gifts right now has a purpose specific to the large changes the world is going through. One of her guides said, she recalls, that from 2020 to 2024 there would be “100 years worth of intellectual and spiritual awakening condensed into four years.”
Excited to Go Into Surgery
Then Ginette comes to her near-death experience. She had long had trouble with her monthly cycle and severe bleeding, she says, which led to surgery. She wrote a book about the whole story. What she remembers is that going into the operating room she had an amazing sense of excitement. She has had surgery before and is not usually excited, but this time she felt like high-fiving people. She could hear music in the background, or maybe she just felt it.
When the anesthesiologist came to put her under, she felt “like a kid who was waiting for the lifeguard” to say she could have her turn at the water.
A Grassy Hill, Her Grandmother and a Summer Picnic
As soon as she was under, she says, her grandmother, who was in spirit, came and met her. She began walking up a grassy hill where she could see the blades of grass in infinite detail if she wanted to, under the most beautiful summer blue sky. She knew exactly where she was. She was on the other side, and this was vastly different from any astral travel or spirit communication she had done. She and her clients have spent thousands of hours in readings talking with spirits about how they died and what their transition was like. None of that was the same as being there. “It’s like feet on the ground,” she says.
She and her grandmother walked up the hill to a summer barbecue atmosphere, like a picnic, with a red and white checkered tablecloth. There she realized that all these spirits were people from her life who had crossed over, and from lifetimes before, and she knew them all. They walked up and she gave them “the best hugs that you can imagine,” like a toddler who throws themselves into your arms. She spent what felt like hours reminiscing, asking what they had been up to.
Blueprints at the Edge of the Universe
Then her grandmother took her to what she calls the edge of the galaxy, or the edge of the universe, where the universe is creating itself. They were in a white room with a massive table, and her council, her group of guides, was around her. They rolled out blueprints. She had always explained to people that life was like a tapestry, but they showed it to her as blueprints, like an architect’s drawings.
She saw a massive line down the center with iridescent energy moving back and forth along it, like life force. She and her guides went through her life review up to that point. There was one piece remaining, which in her memory was about six inches long, though she cannot say how long that is compared to the rest, because a guide’s shoulder was in the way.
At that juncture, they asked whether she wanted to stay or go back, and that is when she realized the point she was at. She said she wanted to go back. If she did, they said, she would have the opportunity, with what remained of her life, to change different junctures. She would remember the first one but not the others until they happened.
The Fuse Box
The first one, she says, was like pulling a fuse out of a fuse box. It was about chronic illness. She had always had something wrong, got sick easily. She remembers pulling it out and asking, “Are you sure I can do this?” They said yes. She set it down, picked one about health, and put it in. She remembers thinking, we will see about that, because she was so used to being the one who was always sick.
She changed several of them. That taught her “how much we do design our life blueprint,” she says. That is the destiny piece.
Her Higher Self and the Choice
They asked her again whether she wanted to stay or go back. That is when she saw her higher self, separate from her and yet the same. She knows that does not make sense in human terms, but on the other side many things do. She saw “the awe and wonder that my higher self had for the human experience,” how valuable it is to the soul, with its triumphs, pitfalls, struggles and successes and everything between. She knew she absolutely had to go back. To learn more about the idea, read our glossary entry on the higher self.
She also understood, she says, that her body had been weakened to the point where, if she decided to stay, it would have been like a light switch. She would have coded on the table and had a massive heart attack and not been revived. She said no, she was going back.
A Note for the Nurse
Everything that came next happened in three or four seconds. She heard the nurse in the recovery room say her name and ask if she was awake, and she felt her spirit go like mush back into her body. She could still feel her grandmother with her. Then her higher self came through, very clearly, she says, even though she is not clear after surgery. With her eyes still closed, she said, “I need you to write something down.” The nurse stopped and said, okay, honey. She asked the nurse to write four phrases, fold the paper and put it in her hand. The nurse did.
She still has the paper on her desk. The words would not make sense to most people, she says, and one of them refers to her grandmother, whom she called Baba. Her higher self had done this before she took any pain medication, because her higher self knew that she would question all of it afterward. She handed the paper to her mother and asked her not to lose it.
A couple of days later, when she was off pain medication, her spirit told her it was time to read the paper. She unfolded it, read the four statements, and everything flooded back. She had known something significant had happened and had pieces of the memory, but those words triggered the whole experience. That afternoon she sat down and told her parents the story. Then she wrote her book, and it all poured out.
Beside Other Near-Death Accounts, and a Simple Practice
Meeting a loved one on a hill, a reunion, a review of one’s life and a choice to return are all familiar themes in near-death accounts. Ginette’s story adds the blueprints and the idea that we can change junctures. We share her account as her own experience and make no medical claims. For wider background, see our complete guide to near-death experiences.
Her note to the nurse suggests a simple practice: when something significant happens, write down your first impressions before the details fade, and read them again a few days later.
Questions to Sit With
- Ginette says a small thing, her cat’s reaction, was what finally made her stop running. What small sign has helped you trust something you were afraid of?
- She says we do design our life blueprint. What is one pattern you might be ready to change, like pulling a fuse and putting a new one in?
- She says her higher self sees the human experience with awe. How would it feel to look at your own struggles that way?
This week, write a short note to yourself about something important that happened, while it is fresh. Read it again in three days and notice what comes back.
Spiritual Takeaways
- Ginette says we do design our life blueprint, and can change junctures along the way.
- She says the human experience, with its triumphs and struggles, is deeply valuable to the soul.
- She says loved ones from this life and from lifetimes before are waiting to welcome us.
- She says everyone has a higher self that is both separate from us and the same as us.
- She says many people are opening to their purpose now, during a time of rapid awakening.
Please enjoy my conversation with Ginette Biro.
Guest Links: Connect With Ginette Biro
- Ginette Biro’s official site
- Ginette on Facebook
- Ginette on Instagram
- Watch the full NDE story with Ginette Biro
Listen to the Episode
- Watch this episode ad-free on Next Level Soul TV
- Download the MP3
- More episodes: Divine Encounters
- Listen to Divine Encounters on Apple Podcasts
- Listen to Divine Encounters on Spotify
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Ginette Biro?
Ginette Biro is a medium who shares her near-death experience in this Divine Encounters episode with host Alex Ferrari. She says she sensed spirits from about age five and began working as a medium in her early twenties.
How did Ginette start working as a medium?
She says a guide’s voice in a hallway told her it was time to get into this, and her cat’s reaction to him showed her she was not imagining it. She then worked by word of mouth for about a decade.
What is the difference between mediumship and channeling?
Ginette says in mediumship she is like a translator or an interpreter, hearing spirit and relaying it. In channeling she steps to the side so the spirit speaks directly through her voice.
What happened to Ginette during surgery?
She says she felt unusually excited going in, and once under, her grandmother met her on a grassy hill that felt completely real. She says this was different from any astral travel or spirit communication she had done before.
What was the summer picnic?
She says she and her grandmother came upon a summer barbecue-style picnic where spirits from her life and from lifetimes before were gathered. She says she gave them wonderful hugs and spent what felt like hours catching up.
What were the blueprints?
She says her council rolled out blueprints of her life on a table in a white room at the edge of the universe. She saw a line down the center with iridescent energy moving along it, and says they went through her life review.
What was the fuse box?
Ginette says she was shown she could change junctures in her life blueprint, and that the first was like pulling a fuse about chronic illness and putting in one about health. She says she changed several.
Why did Ginette come back?
She says she saw her higher self’s awe at the human experience and knew she had to go back. She also says she understood her body was weak and that staying would have meant not surviving surgery.
What was the paper from the recovery room?
She says her higher self had her ask a nurse to write four phrases on paper and put it in her hand. She says she read it days later, and the words triggered the whole experience, which led her to write a book.
Is a near-death experience proof of an afterlife?
Next Level Soul shares near-death experiences as lived experiences told in the person’s own words. Researchers continue to study and debate what they mean. Nothing here is medical advice or a medical claim.
Keep Exploring
- The complete guide to near-death experiences
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- What channeling is
- Amber Cavanagh on her other lives and a free choice to return
- Annette Bricca, a psychic, on predictions after her near-death experience
- Mariko Frederick on hidden realms and life between lives
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- Browse more free masterclasses and the Divine Encounters podcast.
Follow Along with the Transcript
Alex Ferrari 0:00
Tell me what happened to you when you left this realm?
Ginette Biro 0:09
Yeah, so I embraced my mediumship abilities, it was around the age of 20 is when I was like, Okay, we're gonna figure this out. But up until then, like, I can go back to the age of five, feeling people in my room, I knew there were invisible people in my room, but I didn't have like a family line of mediums or that grandmother, that wise grandmother who would sage the house or something, I didn't have that. And so I didn't have this reference point, I no reference point for what was happening. And it couldn't explain why I just knew, but I would go to bed at night and know there was people standing around me, I'd have the covers over my head. And so much of my early years with this gift was actually very scary, because I didn't understand it, right. And then, you know, as I got older, I communicated with my grandmother after she passed, but in my mind, I was like, that was just a dream, tried to logic it all away. And then I started hearing spirit and the ways that you hear spirit isn't always audibly, right. It's not always like an external voice. Sometimes it's the voice in your mind. Sometimes it's your own voice in your mind, but not your thought. And so to try and discern all that, when again, you don't have a reference point led me into a ton of anxiety when I was 17. And so I say that because underneath all of that are on top of all of that I was like a normal kid doing sports and school and plays and everything. But I had this bubbling Gary aspect to my life that I wanted to understand, but didn't know where to go to understand it. And so it was around the age of 20, ish, mid 20, early 20s, that finally one of my guides actually was standing down the end of the hallway. And I was in the house by myself, I was folding laundry, and you know, there's always this kind of like prickly or bubbly sensation when they come near. And now I really liked that feeling. But when I was younger, it would, you know, give me the heebie jeebies. And that feeling came on. And I heard this voice at the end of the hall this big, like firm, masculine voice saying she net looked down the hall. And I mean, you can imagine I kind of yelled every profanity, I could think about a tear. And he was like, scheanette, look down the hall. And so I remember turning my head so slowly to see who is there. And it was actually my, what I've come to know now is my lifetime guide standing there. And he was essentially like, now's your time to actually get into this, okay. And the thing that changed it for me was that my cat at the time was sitting there staring up at him looking at him with her tail kind of wagging, you know, when like, Wags back and forth. And I knew in that moment that she saw him, and I saw him. And it just it was this piece of validated me being ready to dive into actually learning this instead of running from it. So that was a big change maker for me. So like you said, like, I always kind of knew there was stuff, but I kind of avoided it tried to be so normal, if I could put it that way. And then after that experience, I was just like, Okay, we're gonna dive in and see what this means. And it led me to embracing my gift as a medium. And I worked, it was all through just kind of word of mouth that spread. And I was busy doing mediumship readings for about a decade. You know, I did talk to my family very bluntly, I was like, Listen, guys, I am seeing deceased people and spirits. I talked to them. And I realized I always have been feeling them. So I'm exploring this. And so it's kind of like no one was like, Don't do this or anything like that. But it was kind of like, Alright, you're not sure, you know, kinda like we'll see. Because again, like I didn't grow up in a line of mediums where it was like, Oh, welcome to the club or something like that. It's just it was kind of like an unknown, but it so it was like yet to be seen, I guess. And the more that they saw, you know, I would say something and then it would happen. Or I would validate something that I couldn't have known that maybe occurred before I was born and things like that. Once enough of those things happen, then it was more accepted. But like you said, that closeted medium, I was willing to share it with kind of certain people. And it kind of just grew by word of mouth for the first 10 years of doing my mediumship work. It was all just word of mouth. I didn't really advertise. I didn't. I didn't have my website. I didn't, you know, it just kind of spread that way. And I was happy with that. I was like, Yeah, this is good. And you know, I'm doing my thing, but it was after my NDE that my guys are like, so if you're going back, you know, you got to actually step up and like, really share this. And I was like, Yeah, I get it now for sure I'm in. So it was just kind of this neat evolution, but it did take time. But the driving force behind it for me was that I have always had this strong undercurrent, if I could call it or like purpose within that when it's pushing me in a direction I have to go in that direction because if I try to go against it, it's just it's a non starter. I just can't go against it. And so that's I think, but just kept going rushing me through, to stand in my truth and keep going. So what I've come to understand is there have been many lifetimes leading to this one, too. First of all, give me the resilience to keep going to give me the framework of past life understanding is that when ignited would just come back in memory or knowing it's kind of like, you know, when you say you try a new sport, and you realize you're really amazing, right? You're like, Wow, look how good I am at golfing. And this is my second time golfing, right? It's like, Well, you probably did that in the past life or something like that. Right. So what I heard from my guides is that there was much preparation for this lifetime. And essentially, being here now. And everyone that does have these open gifts or open awareness to their purpose right now is so specific to the massive change that we're going through in the world, like we're in massive, rapid ascension, right? My guy had said from the year 2020 to 2024, it's about 100 years worth of intellectual and spiritual awakening condensed into four years, right. So there are many souls here at this time opening and finding this like thing that's pushing them to do more to help to ascend to awaken, just like you are doing your thing, right, like you're living your purpose. So I feel it's very timely in conjunction to everybody else that's here. At this time, I was very comfortable again, at this point doing mediumship. So mediumship, to me, again, everyone's different, but to me, I'm like a translator or an interpreter, right? So I hear spirit, I interpret it and share it with the person. So I'm like that middle person, right? So there's more consciousness that's going on of me being a part of the conversation. Whereas channeling is where like you said, I move more out of the way. So I'm like, say three quarters pushed out, in a way not pushed out, I step out, kind of, but I'm still connected, but I'm hearing it come through me and into my voice audibly. At the same time as somebody else, not hearing it before and translating it. It's coming direct through me. And so the first time this really happened, I was doing a mediumship reading in the spirit that was coming through me or connecting with me, she was telling me these things, and I was telling the person, but I kept not quite getting it the way she wanted it. And so it was so interesting. She said, um, she said, Do you mind if I just kind of direct through you? And I was like, okay, like, What do you mean, she's like, can you just like, move over a little bit, and I'll just come direct through you. And so I remember saying, to my client, I'm like, I'm just going to channel this because she wants to speak directly. And he was essentially that, that's where I learned, you just move to the side. And then they come direct through you and I had more of her like inflections, her cadence of speech, apparently, her tone, not that my voice fully changed. But you could see, or you could hear apparently, the similarities, and it just came directly through. And so it's like, I was hearing it for the first time at the same time as my client was. And so it's this free flow thing. And I would say, it varies how much I remember in detail of what is said in channeling, the higher the frequency of the being, the less that I remember in the moment, and the more that I'll need to go back and listen to get the full memory of it. But if it's like a family member friend that wishes to channel through, then I'm usually more able to kind of keep up with what's coming through. What's interesting is what led me to that was, I used to have a lot of troubles with my menstrual cycle, essentially, I would hemorrhage every month. And so it was so severe that you know, we couldn't fix it, we finally had to do surgery, essentially, that's to really make it a small short story. So we get to the point of surgery. And there was something really interesting. And I mean, I wrote a book about it. So there's the whole story in there of how it led me to that moment. But what happened was, you know, going into the operating room, I had this amazing sense of excitement. And I've had surgery before and I'm not usually like excited and wanting to high five people, but like, I swear I could hear music in the background. Or maybe I just felt music but like excitement. And I remember when the anesthesiologist came to put me under, I felt like a kid who was waiting for the lifeguard to say I could have my turn on the water side. Right? Like, you know, when you're waiting there, and you're like, come on, let me go let me go.
And it was so interesting, because as soon as I was put under my grandmother, who was in Spirit came and met me. And what was interesting is when I started walking up this kind of like grassy hill where I could see the blades of grass in finite detail if I wanted to, or not, and the sky was like this most beautiful, amazing summer blue. I knew where I was, like I knew exactly where I was, I knew I was on the other side. And I knew this was vastly different from any other astral travel I had done, or spirit communication. And we have spent 1000s of hours in readings talking to spirits about their transition, how they died all of this, but none of that was the same as this as being there. It's like feet on the ground. Right? And so I walked up this this hill with my grandmother and we came upon this like summer barbecue Like atmosphere picnic kind of thing. And I could see the the red and white checkered tablecloth. And what I realized was there was all of these spirits from my life that had crossed over, but lifetimes before, and I knew them all. And they were just walking up. And I was giving them the best hugs that you can imagine. It's like you want a toddler, I always say when a toddler throws themselves in your arms, you know, they're giving you all of their love. And I got to spend the time reminiscing and talking to people from lifetimes before being like, what have you been up to what's been going on and, and so it felt like I spent hours, their hours. And then after that my grandmother took me to this separate place, kind of at the what I call like the Edge of the Galaxy, or where the the edge of the universe where the universe is essentially creating itself. We were in this white room with this massive whiteboard room table. And I had my counsel around me my guides, we all have a group of guides or counsel and and they rolled out on the table, these blueprints. And I was like, what I'd always explained to people that our life was like a tapestry, right. And we like weave the weavings of fate and all this as tapestry, but they rolled it out and showed it to me as blueprints. And I remember looking at it thinking like this looks like architect blueprints like how cool is that? Right? And so when they rolled it out, I saw this massive line down the center. And it still had this energy moving back and forth. It's kind of iridescent energy that you know, it was like lifeforce. So my guides and I, we went through my life review up until that point, like where we were, and we went through everything. And then there was a certain piece that was remaining. Now the piece that was remaining was about six inches long in my memory. But I can't remember how long that is compared to what we reviewed before like one of my guides shoulders is right in the way. So I don't know how long it is because of course I would measure to see right. And so once we were hit that juncture where we were right, then that's when they asked me if I wanted to stay or come back. And that's when I really realized the juncture point that I was at. I was like, wow, oh, well, yeah, I want to go back. And so they said, you know, if you if you go back, then you have the opportunity now with what's remaining of your life to change out different juncture point. And I was like, oh, and so they said you will remember the first one, but you won't remember the others until they happen. And the first one I remember it was like a fuse and a fuse box kind of thing. Like I was pulling up this fuse. And remember, it was one of chronic illness cuz I had always had something wrong, right. Growing up, I get sick, easy, all this kind of stuff. And so I remember pulling it out and being like, Are you sure I can do this? And they're like, Yeah, and I put it down. And it picked one of health nip like put it back in. And I remember kind of thinking like, we'll see you guys we'll see, right? Because I was so used to just being the one who was always sick. And so I changed a bunch of them, which really taught me the idea of how much we do design our life blueprint. That's our destiny piece. And so, after I did that, they asked me again, do you want to stay like I'm sure you want to go? Or do you want to stay here. And that's when I had the opportunity to see my higher self essentially, separate from me yet still the same as me. And I know that doesn't make sense, really in our human terms. But on the other side, so many other things make sense. And when I got to see the value, and the awe and wonder that my higher self had for the human experience, how much what we're all doing right now and the triumphs and the pitfalls and the struggles and the successes and everything in between how valuable that is to the soul. I was like, wow, yeah, I absolutely have to go back. And so that's when I had an understanding that my body had been weakened up to that point that if I decided to stay, I would have they it was basically like a light switch. And it would have just been a switch, essentially, that would have had me code on the table in the operating room and just have a massive heart attack and not be revived. And so I was like, No, I'm gonna go back. And so it was interesting, because at that point, then everything this next piece happened with this within a span of like, three, four seconds, but I heard the nurse in the recovery room say she net, are you awake, and then I felt my spirit go like mush back into my body. But I could still feel my grandmother with me. But then my higher self came in so clear and I'm not clear after surgery. I'm quite the comic, actually, my higher self came in and said to the nurse with my eyes still closed, I was like, I need you to write something down and the nurse stopped what she was doing. And she was like, okay, honey, what is it and I was like, I need you to write down these four phrases. I'm a medium and they're very important. Then I need you to fold up the paper and put it in my hand like I gave her clear, like instructions. And so she did and so I wrote it down. I have it on my desk here. So this is the paper from surgery. And these words wouldn't really make sense to people. I mean, it's great Baba tree roots time doing twine and they went far. So it doesn't really make sense to people. Baba was my grandmother. But what happened was, my Higher Selves caught the nurse before I had anything Amen I put into my body because my higher self knew that if I had pain meds, I would question all of it. Right? Like, there's still a linear sense to me, right? So I, you know, I had that paper, I gave it to my mom. And after I was in recovery, I was like, don't lose this paper. And then it was a couple days later, when I had no more payments, and my body spirit was like, It's time for you to read the paper. And so I remember I unfolded it, I read those four statements, and it just everything flooded back to me. I already knew something significant happened to have pieces of the memory, but these words triggered the whole experience. And I remember I sat that afternoon talking to my parents, I was like, Guys, I have to tell you a story. And they're like, Wow, and then I wrote my book, like it just all poured out. And so that's, that was my NDE and the best nutshell I could give you.
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