Alex Ferrari 0:00
Could you explain the concept of an exit point?

Julie Cluff 0:02
We all carry some level of guilt when we lose someone we love. Was everything that I needed to heal was in the moment of the accident. It was there, my eyesight came back, and I saw all the destruction around me. I shared my story, and as we were walking out of that restaurant, that man took me by the arm, and he said, "You're supposed to do something with this. He says, "I don't know what it is. This brings tears to my eyes, just saying it out loud.

Alex Ferrari 0:26
This is such a hard conversation to have, man. And I'm saying this for people listening to give them some sort of understanding.

Julie Cluff 0:40
The crazy part is..

Alex Ferrari 0:50
I like to welcome to the show Julie Cluff. How you doing, Julie?

Julie Cluff 0:53
Great, it's so good to be here. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 0:55
Thank you so much for coming down to Next Level Soul Studios. I appreciate you making the effort.

Julie Cluff 0:59
This is really fun for me. We lived in Texas for many years, so it's fun to come down here.

Alex Ferrari 1:03
Well, I, you know, I was.. we were having a lovely conversation beforehand, so we know a lot about each other already. But your, your story, what has happened to you, your journey is a very interesting journey. Before we get into the loss that you had, some loss that I can't even comprehend. I want to go back a little bit and just talk about where you started in your spiritual space, in your spiritual journey, which is in the Mormon Church.

Julie Cluff 1:32
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:32
And you were apparently with the Mormon Church for six decades, so you were all in.

Julie Cluff 1:38
I was all in.

Alex Ferrari 1:39
You worked at the Mormon Church, as well,

Julie Cluff 1:41
I didn't work for them, but like the way they do things, it's all voluntary basis, mostly, except at headquarters, and so, yeah, I did a lot of work.

Alex Ferrari 1:50
So, you were in, so you were born, you were born into it,

Julie Cluff 1:52
I was all right.

Alex Ferrari 1:53
So, you were born into that faith, as most of it, I was born into the Catholic faith, Jewish faith, and so on. Recovering, I am a recovering Catholic well, my friend Julie Ryan always says she's a cafeteria Catholic. She takes and picks and chooses what she likes. So, so what was it about? What happened? Well, first of all, was the loss, the grief that you were gonna talk about in a minute, was that the thing that turned, or did you already start leaving prior?

Julie Cluff 2:24
No, I didn't start leaving prior. Okay, yeah, it was, but it was a catalyst. Got it. So, the loss that I experienced was a catalyst to where I am now in my spiritual journey. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 2:37
Got it. All right, so let's go back to, if you don't mind, to Mother's Day, 2007

Julie Cluff 2:42
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 2:43
What? What happened that day?

Julie Cluff 2:45
Just a little bit of context, you know. I've been married before. Second marriage, we had our Brady Bunch family. We had, I had three children from my first marriage, and then Ron and I had three more children. So we had six children. Our three oldest stayed at home. Actually, our oldest daughter was off at college, and our three youngest were traveling with me from our home in Houston, Texas, east to visit grandparents. And about midway through the afternoon, I was.. I fell asleep at the wheel, and the crazy part is I never felt tired that day, and that is the part that's like so hard for me to like wrap my head around, because I never felt tired that day, and it was almost as if we were all awake and talking and laughing, and then the next thing you know, I fall asleep at the wheel. I wake up, and I'm bouncing along the median between eastbound and westbound lanes of highway near the Mississippi Alabama border.

Alex Ferrari 3:51
Wow,

Julie Cluff 3:51
And when I tried to pull the SUV back up on the road, we started rolling, the wheels just lifted off the road, and and we started rolling, and we rolled all the way across two lanes of highway into the grass on the other side, I mean, just, you know, normal highway in that, that area, so it was, it was crazy, it was really, really crazy, and, and in that moment, and what I realized later, I didn't, I didn't know this, I didn't recognize this at the time, but the, the rolling knocked me out, and so I just thought that I had lost my eyesight, but it was like my consciousness came back before my eyesight came back, if that makes sense, but yeah, as I, as I came to, as and as I, my eyesight came back, and I saw all the destruction around me. I wish I could paint that picture for people, because it was just unbelievable, like just everything in the car, just everything everywhere, but I. Was I before my eyesight came back, I was calling for my kids. My 12 year old son was sitting in the seat next to me, and then my daughter Carrie was in the back seat, she was 10, and my son David was eight, and they were in the back seat, and as I was calling for them, I could hear my son crying, but I wasn't getting any answer from Carrie and David, I could hear James, who was in the seat next to me, crying, and as my eyesight came back and I started to scan, I saw that they had been thrown from the car, and what it felt like, it felt like the car was a football field away from where they were. It probably wasn't

Alex Ferrari 5:39
Sure,

Julie Cluff 5:40
But that's what it felt like, because I was physically, and in every way in shock and stunned, and yeah, I was, it was horrific, but there were some really interesting things that happened, even while the car was rolling, I heard a voice in my head as the car started to roll, that said, 'Bring your arm in, and I brought my arm. I don't know how I had the consciousness to do that in the middle of that, but I brought my arm in, and three months later I learned of a woman who had lost her arm in a rollover car accident, and a couple years after that, I met another woman who had lost her arm in a rollover car accident. So it's interesting because like, I heard that voice in my head, you know, spirits speaking to me, angels speaking to me, telling me to bring my arm in. I don't know how I did it, honestly, but it's hard to wrap your head around, because, like, how is how could that voice not have come before I fell asleep that said, oh, you're tired, you know, you need to pull over, but it wasn't there, was none of that that day, so it kind of pointed to this, which I couldn't hold on to at that moment. There's so much, because it's, it's like so much happened in that moment, and there were so many things that happened in that moment, and then there were so much that happened afterwards, you know, so much that happened afterwards that helped me to integrate the loss and the experience, but yeah, it was, it was a horrible, horrible situation,

Alex Ferrari 7:20
I can't even, I mean, I have kids, so I can't even.. I can't even imagine that kind of loss. It's, it's, it's, it's baffling to me. So,

Julie Cluff 7:28
In that moment, I knew, like, I had this clearly, your life has changed forever, and I didn't even know if they were alive or had passed, but it's like I just knew that our life had changed forever.

Alex Ferrari 7:41
So, when you went through that process, was, you know, and you're still, you know, obviously you're still Mormons. I'm laying that out because where we're going, yeah, did anything mystical or anything like that happen? Did you see anything different because you things have opened up for you, and we'll talk about that as we keep going, but in that moment, did you see anything? Did you hear anything?

Julie Cluff 8:07
In that moment, I was in complete shock and terror. I was screaming, "I killed my kids, I killed my kids. I was screaming that, and I often think of my son sitting next to me in the car, and he's a 30 year old man now, right, and he's doing beautifully, but boy, I was just completely traumatized, and it wasn't until long time later that I realized that I'd had an experience while the car was rolling when I was blacked out, where I had left my body, and I had joined Carrie and David, and had an opportunity to say goodbye. I don't have a lot of memory around that. I just have this

Alex Ferrari 8:54
Glimpses,

Julie Cluff 8:55
Glimpses of this vision, and interestingly enough, I also have this glimpse of me going and visiting with the council with spirit council, spirit council, right, which that came on much later. Yes, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 9:13
But that came out after. Do you remember that?

Julie Cluff 9:16
I remember that much, much later.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
So, at that point, did you have a conversation like, hey, hey, hey, what's going on? Like, yeah, I signed up for this?

Julie Cluff 9:24
Yeah, and that's the thing, I don't remember a lot,

Alex Ferrari 9:27
But you remember that, like, a glimpse again,

Julie Cluff 9:28
I just have these little visions, it's interesting too, because in those visions I see myself as very calm, just like that voice that said, you know, bring your arm in, and when I tuned back into that voice, it was very calm.

Alex Ferrari 9:44
Yeah,

Julie Cluff 9:44
It was very peaceful. Who wasn't frantic? I was frantic.

Alex Ferrari 9:48
Who was that voice?

Julie Cluff 9:49
You know, I.. I'm not quite sure, but I feel like.. so I have a main guide, and we'll call him Jacob. Yeah. And there's a whole story behind that, but that's okay, that has come in vocally for me for years, but it's only been in more recent years that I've really made that connection and that relationship, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, we went to the hospital, and James and I were taken to a different hospital than Carrie and David, and I didn't know if they were that are alive, and I'm laying on a striker board in the hospital as they were doing tests and stuff to make sure that I didn't have more injuries than what were what they could see, and as I was laying there, and we're in an emergency room, and the only, only way I know how to really explain this is that it's as if you're in a movie theater and you're watching a war movie, and then it cuts to this beautiful love story, commercial, like a love story, like this beautiful love story, because as I was laying in the hospital, I was going in and out of being there in that hospital and being in a field with Jesus, who I call Yeshua now, to distinguish from the Jesus that I knew as a previously, but in that space I felt so much peace and so much calm, and there were no words exchanged. It was as if we were standing in a meadow, these beautiful flowers and distant mountains, which is so weird, because I'm from Florida, I'm like, why am I in a meadow in mountains? I don't know, but that, that was the, the little, the imprint that I have of this, the surroundings, but more and more it was just him standing there with me, holding my hands, and just like that deep look in my eye, just that deep connection, and that deep just holding, just that holding, that it's really remarkable, and I would feel that peace, and then I would come back into that hospital room, and, and be in my freak out state of not knowing what was happening.

Alex Ferrari 12:31
Interesting, so it was like this kind of like you said, you're watching a war movie, and then you cut to a love story, and then you're coming back to a war movie, and going back to a love story, kind of thing. So, you were kind of having in and out of these experiences. No words were exchanged, but information was exchanged by either telepathy or something, but you knew there was a knowing, yeah, of what was happening. Yeah, that sounds to me very, very near-death experiencey, but not because you didn't technically die, but there's elements of a near death experience where you, in near death experiences, there is no communication, but you know everything

Julie Cluff 13:07
Well and it's funny because I often tell people it's like it's almost as if I was asleep before this accident, and I died the day of the accident, and I woke up three years later.

Alex Ferrari 13:19
Explain that, please.

Julie Cluff 13:22
Three years later, I had a miraculous healing.

Alex Ferrari 13:26
What brought that on? What was the catalyst for that?

Julie Cluff 13:28
It was actually a prayer, a special prayer that was given, and interestingly, I didn't again all these pieces that start to come into the equation that you don't recognize at the time, about a week before the accident, I had been in England with my husband, he was traveling there for work, and we, my daughter and I, had gone over there, and I learned later that he took me because I was doing so poorly, because at that point in my journey of recovery, I was probably the worst I'd been. It was the darkness in me felt tangible, like it just was. I, it was..

Alex Ferrari 14:12
Let's kind of analyze that for a little bit, because this is, I think, an important part of the healing process for people. And again, I'm trying to put myself in your place, it as a parent. Yeah, I'm trying to, as a parent, and it's, it's everything inside of me is like, don't go there, because it's something, it's, it's the worst thing that could ever happen to a parent, is losing a child, and then feeling responsible for the loss. It's a whole other level of thing. So I'm trying to analyze in my time. I've gone through dark times in my life. I've dealt with loss and things, nothing like this, but I'm trying to picture myself in what you're going through, and you say this darkness. So, I need to ask you, How could you survive this with the guilt and this darkness of losing? Two young children, I personally don't like that. Cracks that'll break most people. So, what did you do, and how long were you in? I don't think you ever get over it, but how long were you in this darkness that you're talking about? And how did you start kind of walking your way out through the to the light?

Julie Cluff 15:18
It is, it's a, it's a journey. I was in such self hatred,

Alex Ferrari 15:25
Of course. I, yeah, you're beating yourself up at a level that we can't even comprehend.

Julie Cluff 15:29
Yeah, I mean, it was all my fault. I can't blame it on anybody else. It was my fault. There's no other explanation,

Alex Ferrari 15:38
Right.

Julie Cluff 15:39
And I was seeing the pain that my husband was in, I was seeing the pain that my children were in, I was seeing the pain of their friends and their family. We had an amazing community of people that, that wrapped their arms around us. It was.. it brings tears to my eyes to even think about all the people. There were almost 1000 people at the funeral at the service, but we had, I had my tennis group that had organized, you know, a whole group of people to bring meals in. We had our church group that organized all these people to help us and serve us. I was homeschooling at the time, and so you know, these were my youngest children, and I was homeschooling, and so the homeschool community wrapped their arms around us. We just had so much love around us, and one thing I will say is that the day of the accident, right around the day of the accident, might have been the day after I was still laying in the hospital. My injuries were pretty minor, but they kept me in the hospital for two or three days. What I didn't share was that my son, who was 12, he had a pretty severe injury to his leg, and when we got to the hospital, it's Mother's Day, it's a holiday, it's a Sunday, and I'm hearing all these, you know, the hospital attendants, the nurses talking about, like asking why the doctor was there. The doctor that actually created or pioneered the procedure that my son needed was at the hospital that day. I mean, that's not a miracle. That's why I called my on a holiday, my first book, Miracles in the Darkness, because there were so many miracles, and everyone's around, you know. And I would hear them say, why is he here? Why is he here? The hospital was actually named after his family. I mean, he

Alex Ferrari 17:40
Got it,

Julie Cluff 17:40
This, and he was not only an angel to our son in the work that he did, and in saving his leg, he's doing great, you know, he's totally fine now, but he was an angel to our family too, because he actually advocated for us with the hospital and helping us figure out how to get home, we had a funeral, and I mean, just there was so much, there was so much, and sorry, I kind of took us off track a little bit, but part of my healing, and one of the things that I realized much, much late later was everything that I needed to heal was in the moment of the accident, it was there, and that

Alex Ferrari 18:19
What you mean?

Julie Cluff 18:20
And what that, what I mean by that is, everything was lined up, everything was available, everything was, was a part of the journey for my healing was present, it's, it's, it's kind of, and I haven't really shared it this way in the past, but as we know that in spirit there is no time or space like we experience it here, and it's kind of the same thing with this accident, there was no time and space in spirit, but in physicality I needed time and space to integrate what I had experienced, so on the day of the accident I had a very clear knowing that Carrie and David were okay, and I think some of that came from my religious background, I think some of that came from that, that programming, if you will, that I, I had from the religious background, but here, here's the part of it, is that regardless of what our background is, they're good and bad for every background,

Alex Ferrari 19:42
Absolutely,

Julie Cluff 19:43
And and that framework of Mormonism was very helpful to me in the beginnings of my healing process, but it was also very, you know, very injuring as well, so.

Alex Ferrari 20:00
Yeah, the thing that's, and I think this is an important point for people, because you know, you and I came from not similar backgrounds. I wasn't 60 years in the Catholic religion, six decades in it, but I've said this so many times publicly, but I'm very grateful that was, was, was born into the Kalaalism, and people are like, how kid you, this is a horrible, it's a lot of, yeah, but I like the cafeteria aspect of things, where it introduced me to a greater power than myself. It introduced me to angels, introduced me to saints, introduced saints slash ascended masters, introduced me to Christ and his teachings, and that framework allowed me to then go off and search Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, and then all the other yogic philosophies and Confucianism, and all these different philosophies, but the framework, the foundation was based on Catholicism. So I'm very, very grateful for that, because it gave me a sense of understanding and belonging in the universe. Yes, there's a game with it, and a lot of guilt, and a lot of other controlling avenues I did not gel with, but I felt it eventually, and I just left. Yeah, young, young, I was in, I was in high school, and I was like in a Catholic high school, I was like, this is ridiculous,

Julie Cluff 21:16
This isn't working,

Alex Ferrari 21:17
This is not what happened to Jesus in those yada yada years, you know, those kind of that kind of stuff, but I'm very grateful. So, I'm glad you said that, because a lot of people who are listening, who might be in an organized religion that they're not happy with, you, you were, you chose that as a soul to come in to this life through that lens, because you could have been born Hindu,

Julie Cluff 21:40
I couldn't.

Alex Ferrari 21:40
I could have been born Jewish. It's just that's what we happen to choose to learn the lessons that we needed to learn, and to best serve us in this life. A lot of people don't get me wrong, I was angry, I'm sure you were too, at organized religion for a long time, and there's still spurts of it that pop up when I speak about it, because it still irks me a bit, but I'm very grateful for it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have changed anything. I don't know if you could say that, but

Julie Cluff 22:10
Absolutely, because when I look at, you know, my father came from a very difficult background, his father had died by suicide. His brother had died by suicide. I had a brother who died by suicide, and, and all of these pieces are aspects of our journey.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
Yes,

Julie Cluff 22:35
And so, my, you know, like I said, my dad came from this really challenging background, and he wasn't, he wasn't LDS. My mom was, and so we were raised.

Alex Ferrari 22:46
LDS is Latter Day,

Julie Cluff 22:47
Latter Day Saint, yes, Mormon, Latter Day Saint, yes, it's interchangeable. And so, and I have, I have a sibling that says, imagine what our life would have been like had it not been for the church, that community, that framework, yeah, that teaching of, of that conservative teaching of, you know, avoiding alcohol. I don't know that we needed to avoid coffee, but, but you know, it was just part of,

Alex Ferrari 23:19
Depends on where you buy the coffee, but I understand what you say.

Julie Cluff 23:23
Devil, you know, devil bean juice.

Alex Ferrari 23:26
See, this is where I have problems, mind you. In my church, I'm a first grader getting given wine.

Julie Cluff 23:32
Yeah. Oh, wow. Remember, they're the blood of Christ. I wasn't allowed to have wine at all.

Alex Ferrari 23:36
I literally remember in the first grade or second grade, they were like, and they would give a big gold cup, and they would pour wine, and you would you like once I was in second grade, so you have to have communion first. Yeah, so had communion, and then they would give me the wine, and then the priest would just wipe it off with a cloth and give it to everybody else in the entire.. I mean, it was insane. So I remember, so yes, I was getting, and I don't drink, and never have other than a few sips of that,

Julie Cluff 24:03
Other than as a first year writer, as a second grade, second grader. Let's, let's be fair, second, third grade, we want to make sure that we're second grade, not first grade,

Alex Ferrari 24:12
Exactly, because there's a huge difference there. But it's fat, but it's fascinating, and that's where I find problems with a lot of the organizers, is just these kind of dogmatic things that don't make sense, like no eating meat on Fridays, like what you go back in the histories, you understand why that was originally because pork was not very sanitary and all that stuff back then,

Julie Cluff 24:31
Right.

Alex Ferrari 24:32
And they just kept carrying these ideas over, but the Mormon Church is interesting because they're fairly new.

Julie Cluff 24:38
Oh yeah, it's a

Alex Ferrari 24:39
Couple

Julie Cluff 24:40
1830,

Alex Ferrari 24:41
Yeah, yeah, a few 100 years

Julie Cluff 24:43
On the 200

Alex Ferrari 24:44
Yeah, couple 100 couple 100. So it's a fairly young religion,

Julie Cluff 24:48
It is

Alex Ferrari 24:49
So it doesn't have the lineage of Catholicism or the Vatican or anything like that, but there's still dogma that's been carried around from those days.

Julie Cluff 25:00
Absolutely, and it's, you know, and it is considered a high control, high demand religion, and it, it did create a conditioning and a way that I viewed every experience that I had.

Alex Ferrari 25:13
Sure, so

Julie Cluff 25:14
Through that, through that lens, exactly, but, and interestingly, before any family was able to get to the hospital, because I was in at the border of Mississippi and Alabama, and before anybody was able to get to the hospital, a bishop was, which is what they call the pastor, essentially of a local congregation came to visit me in the hospital and started talking to me about, you know, the plan of salvation, and they're going to be okay, and this and that and the other, and I, and I, I look back on that, and at the time I'm listening to this man, thinking, Do you really think this is what I need to hear right now, and

Alex Ferrari 26:03
He was doing the best

Julie Cluff 26:04
He was, and I have so much compassion for that man. I cannot imagine, imagine

Alex Ferrari 26:11
Walking,

Julie Cluff 26:12
Yeah, you're having Sunday dinner, Mother's Day dinner with your family, and you get a phone call, hey, this horrific accident just happened, and this mom needs, you know, to have somebody there with her, and I, I, I could see his nerves a mile away. I mean, I'm just.. it's, it's a horrific situation, and I don't blame him at all for doing that, because that's, that's what he did, you know, that's the job, right, but I, there were little things that were happening all along the way that were pointing to that this was part of the plan.

Alex Ferrari 26:54
That brings me to my next question.

Julie Cluff 26:56
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 26:56
Perfect. Thank you for that segue. We're here.

Julie Cluff 26:59
I didn't even know

Alex Ferrari 27:00
We were here like that, the idea that we choose our lives and the idea that we have soul contracts and we come into a life to do certain things and soul group around you goes, oh, I'll be your son this time or I'll be your daughter this time and I'm going to be a horrible daughter and I'm going to put you through hell, because that's what you need to learn this life, or I'm going to be loving, or this, or that, or I'm going to pass at this point in my life to help you catalyze you to something else, and I'm willing to do that for you. That's the understanding and framework I understand of the other side, and what we choose here. It's extremely difficult to hear that in this time when something bad is when something good is fine when you're in the Amalfi Coast on a on a yacht eating lobster, yeah, like I chose this, this is I needed to experience cello ice cream. Stop it, stop it. Some Napoli pizza, but, but, but when bad things are happening, not just on a personal level, but like on a global level, wars and things like that, it's very difficult for people to understand, or even grasp that idea, and it's difficult for me to understand that, like, it's hard. I was, you know, I've gone through things, I'm like, why, even after I've kind of come to these awakenings, I go, okay, you're putting me through this. What am I supposed to learn here? Because I can't see it, and a lot of times when you're in the storm, you cannot see past the rain. Only after a little bit of time do you look back at the storm and go, oh, that's what that was for.

Julie Cluff 28:36
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 28:36
So,

Julie Cluff 28:37
And I don't, you know, and to that point, I don't think we even totally grasp what that was for. I think we have this, like, kindergarten level, absolutely. That was for.. I think there's so much more going on than multiple ways we can't even comprehend.

Alex Ferrari 28:52
So, with that framework laid out, why do you think.. do you think you chose this path for your soul and your children, so children, and it's such a hard conversation to have, man, and I'm, and I'm saying this for people listening to give them some sort of understanding of why things like this happen, because the whole concept of why think good things happen to bad people, or bad things happen to good people, let's be both sides. Thank you very much. As I was about to say, that I was like, you wait a minute, yeah. Why, that that unfairness is like that person's horrible, yet, but they have all this money or the success, and this, and this person is an angel, and she is broken, or he's broken, poor, and lost everything. The framework that we choose this path for soul growth, for whatever reason, resonates and makes sense with me, even in the bad times, you know, and the good times, it's easy, but in the bad times it makes sense. Why did Christ choose to come down here and listen? I get into the whole salvation Messiah thing, but just, or why did Buddha decide to go there, or why did Gandhi decide to do all the struggle, or Martin. Luther King come and decide to do all the things that they did, that framework makes sense to me. What are your thoughts on that?

Julie Cluff 30:07
Well, I'll tell you, that was one of the things that I struggled with within religion was because I was taught we came here this one lifetime and you have to be baptized, all that kind of thing, and, and from a young age that didn't make a lot of sense to me, because I would look around and I would see people who were living totally different lives, and they're completely checked out to the need for baptism, or they're in a country that's like, well, what's baptism, or it didn't make any sense to me, it didn't make any sense to me at all.

Alex Ferrari 30:53
Hey guys, I really hope you're enjoying this conversation, and the one thing I've noticed recently is that most of you are not subscribed to our YouTube channel, it's free, and it really helps us out a lot. So, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe, like, and share this content, so we can continue to help elevate the consciousness of the planet. Thank you so much. And let's get back to the conversation.

Julie Cluff 31:14
And so the one thing that was really beautiful about Mormonism was they did have a a policy of being baptized for someone who has passed, so you're being baptized, you're representing that person, so, so that was in a way that was a beautiful compromise, if you will, that everyone can be baptized, even if they've already left the earth, that they can be baptized in that, so I appreciated that part of it, but it didn't make a lot of sense to me, and it was, yeah, so that was that was part of some of my questioning early on, but my, so a couple of things happened. One was about five months after the accident. It was beginning of October. I walked into a Walgreens. They were putting costumes out. I saw this witch's costume, and I immediately thought of my daughter, Carrie, and thought, "Oh, she would love that. And then, of course, it hits like a brick on your head that she's not here, she's there's not going to be a Halloween, you know, that just that sadness, because my, you can even see from that reaction of you still expecting them to come downstairs in the morning, or still expecting seeing a costume and thinking, oh, she would love that, you know, I don't do that anymore, I mean, it's been 19 years, it's been, yeah, it's been 19 years, and but at that point I was still trying to integrate, so I had that thought, and then in my head I thought, why did this have to happen, and that spirit spoke to me and said they're right where they're supposed to be, and when I heard that in my head, I said, but why did it have to happen this way, and I heard, how would you have liked it to happen, and when you hear a question like that, your brain goes and looks for answers,

Alex Ferrari 33:18
Of course,

Julie Cluff 33:19
Which not pleasant to think about other possibilities of their passing.

Alex Ferrari 33:25
Sure,

Julie Cluff 33:26
But I will also share that five years before this happened, we had just moved into our home in Houston, and they were upstairs in the bonus room, leaning on the screen, talking to the dog in the backyard, it was spring, and they both fell out the second floor window together,

Alex Ferrari 33:48
Those two,

Julie Cluff 33:48
The two of them together, minor, minor injuries. David was three years old, essentially had no injuries. They fell onto the pool deck. I didn't even say that they fell onto the gravel

Alex Ferrari 34:04
At that age. They're just rubber, yeah. And they don't

Julie Cluff 34:07
Just bounce off the ground. I kept saying angels like carried him down to the ground, or I'd say you must have landed on Carrie. He's like, I did not land on Carrie, but and Carrie had two minor fractures to her wrists, and had casts on, and she was, yeah, she was five, and she was hilarious with those casts, and everybody was coming over and bringing her things, and you know, a five year old, she's like, you think somebody could bring me a Barbie, I don't think that's not the way

Alex Ferrari 34:42
It works, but

Julie Cluff 34:44
Anyway, so that had happened, which could have been an exit point for them,

Alex Ferrari 34:50
And the exit points is something that a lot of people don't understand what the exit points are. Could you explain the concept of an exit point for people?

Julie Cluff 34:58
Well, I really believe that no. One dies before their time,

Alex Ferrari 35:01
Right.

Julie Cluff 35:02
And that's an important concept for us to remember, because we all, even if you're not the driver of the car, when something awful happens like that, we all carry some level of guilt when we lose someone we love. We just, we think, oh, we should have taken them to the doctor sooner. We should have gone to the hospital sooner. We should have seen these signs. We should have seen this or that or the other, right? So we all carry a little bit of that guilt when a loved one dies, and, and so that that piece of just knowing that they didn't die before their time, and an exit point is is a time when we could have passed and we didn't, and so they could have passed falling out the second floor window.

Alex Ferrari 35:55
Oh no, question.

Julie Cluff 35:56
Yeah, I mean, I've known people, I know you, I'm sure you do, who have died with in circumstances that you're like, "Wow, did that happen?

Alex Ferrari 36:06
And then the opposite, like, "How did you not die?

Julie Cluff 36:08
Exactly! All the near-death experiencers that have, you know, like Vinnie in a body bag, for example, right? He's in a body bag, he's been pronounced dead, he was dead before they arrived.

Alex Ferrari 36:19
Yeah, then he pulls a zombie situation, comes up, it scares the hell,

Julie Cluff 36:24
Exactly, exactly, so, so those, all those little pieces are evidence that things are happening in the order that they, they should be happening, but you know, so there was, there was that aspect, and then there was the, and having that message again, that spirit that spoke to me, and it wasn't the first time I'd heard spirit speak to me in my 20s. I was, I woke up in the middle of the night, I had been reading this book about this woman who had, who was probably about my age when this happened, but she had created just this huge business, and one of the things that she had done was gotten up really early in the morning, and so, and to you know, get busy, get busy with her day, and so I woke up in the middle of the night, and Spirit was speaking to me, and telling you, telling me I needed to be getting up early in the morning. I already do. I have two babies. I don't know what you're talking about, but I had this whole conversation with spirit telling me, okay, you need to go talk to this person, you need to do this, you need to do that. I'm like, what? And I, frankly, was thought, this is crazy. I actually woke up my husband at the time, and I said, I just need to tell you what happened, because I think when I wake up, I'm not going to believe that this just happened. And I actually went, and I had the conversation that spirit was suggesting that I had, and the person, as soon as I said I need to talk to you, they said I knew it. So it was there, was evidence to the communications that I was receiving, which was interesting, you know. A couple of years after the accident, by this time, my oldest daughter, you know, she said college. My second daughter went to college, she graduated from high school two weeks after the accident happened, and then went off to college.

Alex Ferrari 38:24
Oh,

Julie Cluff 38:25
And so I'm at home, you know, I'm a mom of six children. We all live together, you know, the big Brady Bunch family, and all of a sudden our home is quiet. I just, two teenage boys, two teen teenage teenage boys. I want to emphasize that, because I was thinking, oh my gosh, I was feeling so guilty because I was so not present. I was not present for them.

Alex Ferrari 38:54
Listen, as a parent, I get you. I have teenagers.

Julie Cluff 38:58
Yeah, it's a nightmare.

Alex Ferrari 38:59
It's, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful nightmare. Yeah, agreed. But, but we do the, and I've realized this, and, and I know my parents, probably, especially my mom watches everything I do, so she'll hear this, and I'll go. I only, only recently, within the last few years, did I understand that our parents truly just did the best they could.

Julie Cluff 39:27
Oh, absolutely,

Alex Ferrari 39:28
They are flawed human beings, like all of us, doing the best under the circumstances, and sometimes they hit it out of the park, and other times they strike out, and I do it too, as a parent, and you have to have some compassion with the parent, and also think about where that lineage comes from. How did their, how did their grandparents treat those parents, and with that training and that programming and that experience, what they did to you might have. Has been a reflection of how they did, and they're trying to do the best they can, and some generations, which is something I was going to ask you, some generations break cycles of violence, of guilt, of other things, of abuse, verbal abuse, and they go no more, yeah, no more, like you know, my parents didn't follow, didn't let me follow my dreams, so it had to be an attorney, not me personally, I'm just saying in general, but when I came to my mom with the insane idea of being a filmmaker in 1993 she's like, let's do it, let's go, and she broke that cycle, so now with mine, I said, what do you want to do, follow your dream, you know, so that cycle breaking is something. So I just wanted to kind of put that out there for people, because a lot of times people don't - they blame their parents for everything, and there might be very good reason for it.

Julie Cluff 40:52
Absolutely,

Alex Ferrari 40:54
Should be some compassion about where they came from, how they did it, why they did it, because I think at the core of every human being we're good,

Julie Cluff 41:03
We are, we're all doing the best we can, we're all doing the best, and that concept is hard, because even in that state of being checked out, I was doing the best I could, right, 100%

Alex Ferrari 41:17
Because look what you went through,

Julie Cluff 41:19
And I felt so bad, though, because I thought my girls grew up in a totally different household.

Alex Ferrari 41:25
It's,

Julie Cluff 41:26
And so I was having this conversation in my head again. I'm having this conversation in my head. I'm like, I just feel so guilty that my boys are growing up with a checked-out mom. I just feel so bad about it. And Spirit again spoke to me and said this was their decision too, this was part of their plan too. Now, keep in mind, I'm still in the religious,

Alex Ferrari 41:52
You haven't left church yeah, you haven't left the church,

Julie Cluff 41:54
But I'm having these experiences that are kind of outside the realm in some ways, but I could still make it work, but they were kind of out a little bit outside the range.

Alex Ferrari 42:05
How did you, how did you process this? Because you're like in the Mormon tradition, I mean, there's the devil's work, obviously, in the Catholic religion as well. I mean, depends on who's talking to you. Yeah, you know, because there's obviously a big history of like divine intervention and angels and stuff like that, but it's generally frowned upon if you go to your priest and go, or pastor and go, "Hey, I've been talking, God has been talking to me, or angels have been talking to me, generally not looked fondly upon.

Julie Cluff 42:33
Well, the interesting thing about the LDS Church is that they actually promoted and and asked us to become familiar with the spirit and to have that connection, but it needed to fit within the the realm of what they were teaching, so if you received a revelation and it didn't fit within the construct of what they had prescribed, then you needed to realize that you were not getting it right, that you were not hearing it right, and there were some people within the church, I will say, who, because, because in the church they did talk about the preexistence that we were here, that we existed before we came here, but it's still like a one-off life, and you know, and another thing that never made sense to me, while we're, while we're talking about it, another thing that never made sense to me, and this is kind of not just Mormonism, this is religion, organized religion in general, is this idea that we came down here, and then we had to be like someone had to die for our sins.

Alex Ferrari 43:45
Well, for yeah, for Christians, yeah,

Julie Cluff 43:48
That just never.. well, that means it did, and it didn't.

Alex Ferrari 43:52
No, no, it didn't make any sense.

Julie Cluff 43:54
It was, you know, the more.. and this was this is the deconstruction that I went through over the years after the accident was the God that I was becoming familiar with was so loving and so kind, and having that experience, that face-to-face experience with Yeshua, with Jesus, and that's how He knew spirit, so it didn't make any sense that there was a God that would have all these rules, all these regulations, and if you don't follow all these rules, and there were times after they passed where I thought, did I do enough, you know, there were there were moments where I thought, is it possible that I didn't do enough, and that Carrie and David aren't okay, that somehow

Alex Ferrari 44:45
The guilt

Julie Cluff 44:46
They have been, they've been judged not good enough, like that. I didn't spend a lot of time there, more of that was against myself. I actually, for a long time. Held this belief that I was being punished, and that's why the children died, because I was driving on a Sunday.

Alex Ferrari 45:08
Oh, Jesus, my God, it's diabolical, isn't it? Our brains,

Julie Cluff 45:15
It is, and I'm not saying if someone's listening to this and they're, they're a member of the church, and they, they believe I'm not seeing that the church directly said that to me. No, no, I'm not implying that at all. But it's like you said, your brain starts to go through all these stories.

Alex Ferrari 45:33
Yeah, that's not a, that's not a teaching that I mean, yeah, you should, that Sunday's God's Day, I get that, but you got to drive to church, so it's not a,

Julie Cluff 45:40
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 45:40
It's that's, but you, you made that.

Julie Cluff 45:42
I miss church to go on a trip.

Alex Ferrari 45:45
I mean, I mean,

Julie Cluff 45:48
And I was, you know, I was a very strict Sabbath follower, and so it was, it was challenging, but in at that three year mark, I ended up in London. I kind of circled back to that real quick, and, and I didn't realize this at the time, but we ended up on a side trip to Stonehenge, and I did not realize at the time that Stonehenge is considered the heart chakra of the earth, that area, right. And then a week later I had this prayer that was given by someone at the church, and within 24 hours the light bulbs came on. I was a different person, the darkness just lifted.

Alex Ferrari 46:32
Why? So, tell me, explain to me what happened.

Julie Cluff 46:37
I don't know,

Alex Ferrari 46:38
You just.. it was like night and day,

Julie Cluff 46:40
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 46:40
Like someone literally switched on a light, and you're like, oh, I get it all. It all kind of was a download, almost.

Julie Cluff 46:45
It was just a clearing of the darkness,

Alex Ferrari 46:48
An awareness.

Julie Cluff 46:49
It was a new awareness. It was a.. I woke up to the joy of life that I don't think I even experienced before the accident,

Alex Ferrari 47:01
And it was around Stonehenge that this happened.

Julie Cluff 47:03
Well, Stonehenge was the week before. Then I had this prayer, and then within 24 hours of that prayer,

Alex Ferrari 47:09
Do you think anything happened to do with.. I mean, everybody, yeah, not everybody has to go to Stonehenge to find..

Julie Cluff 47:14
I say that all the time. Thank you for saying that.

Alex Ferrari 47:16
You don't have to fly to Stonehenge, there's many places..

Julie Cluff 47:18
Part of my path that was part of my path, it was not. It's not something that everyone needs to do, but I also say that in that when we are, when we are doing the work of healing, and when I say work, I'm not saying like we're efforting out of healing, but out of grief, what we're doing is we are making friends with grief. Grief is part of the healing process.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Yes,

Julie Cluff 47:46
It's part of the healing process, and, and because in society we think we shouldn't be grieving, we shouldn't be sad, we shouldn't have bad feelings. We do have bad feelings, we do have hard days, we do it, so it's just allowing what is, and not getting stuck there. So it's, I was doing, I was really engaged with my own healing after we got back from, you know, and I'm backing up again. Sorry, I'm like all over the place. I hope that's okay. But after we came back from the, from Alabama, from the hospital, and I remember sitting in the backyard, and I remember sitting in a chair, and thinking somehow I came back after my brother passed away, sometime, somehow I came back after a horrific divorce. Is it possible I could come back from this? And I can remember where I was sitting, I was by myself, and I had that thought. Is it possible I could come back from this? Now Facebook wasn't a thing, or it was a baby thing.

Alex Ferrari 49:03
Yeah,

Julie Cluff 49:05
I didn't have Facebook to go to to look for grief groups. What I noticed went after my healing journey, and when I received the message that I was supposed to do something with this story, and, and help other people with it. I went on Facebook, and I started looking around, and it's abysmal, it's awful. The messages that parents can't overcome, you know, they can't move forward after the death of a child is pervasive, it's everywhere,

Alex Ferrari 49:43
Really?

Julie Cluff 49:44
And it's, it's so damaging.

Alex Ferrari 49:46
Why do you think that? That is, is it? Is it? I mean, I know, in the religious standpoint, it can be like you're being punished for something you did.

Julie Cluff 49:55
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 49:55
And you can't, you shouldn't, like, if God did this to you, then this. Some things, it's just part of what you have to deal with. It's like you got to swallow it, and you can't come out of the darkness. You must live there now, kind of energy, which you're not saying that you're saying, and you've got it's like from what the stories that you're saying, the brother, you know, losing your brother, and the way you lost him, your horrific divorce and then losing your children, you went through some stuff,

Julie Cluff 50:25
Yeah, and that's just a part of what I went through.

Alex Ferrari 50:28
I'm sure you chose, you chose a hell of a run.

Julie Cluff 50:31
I did. At one of my, my one of my spiritual friends said your soul was very creative.

Alex Ferrari 50:37
You're like, I'll take one of these, I'll take, I'll take five of those, I'll take two of these. Oh, that's gonna be fun. You know, it's hard to think about like a soul walking through a supermarket and just grabbing and grabbing things and putting in the cart. And then you go to the checkout and you're in your spirit guides are there and going, you sure you want to do this all in one? I mean, we could spread this over three or four lifetimes

Julie Cluff 50:59
For sure, and we, yeah, because, because for years, even before this accident happened, I would literally tell people I stood in the wrong line in heaven.

Alex Ferrari 51:10
I just got everything.

Julie Cluff 51:10
I was like, somehow I stood in the wrong line in heaven. I'm trying to figure out how to get off that path. I don't know how to get off that path. And I had finally gotten to a place in my life, I was remarried, you know, my kids were growing up, everything was good, but my nervous system was still a mess.

Alex Ferrari 51:27
Yeah,

Julie Cluff 51:27
Because I was still supercharged from all these previous experiences that I'd had, and I was finally getting to that point where I thought, you know, what, I can relax, things are good, and then this accident happened, and I don't say that to say, you know, the minute you relax, that happens, but my system is still trying to relax. Honestly,

Alex Ferrari 51:49
I have to say, though, and it's interesting, and I love to hear your thoughts on this. Is just me analyzing the scenario that when something like this happens, I mean, a car accident is a wake-up call. A near death experience in a car accident is a wake-up, is a kind of wake-up call. Near death experiences, I think probably one of the ultimate wake up calls to put you on a new path, because you've been going down this one path for so long. This, what happened to you, sounds like you know, to to leave the programming, you, I mean, you're talking about six decades, as you said, to leave that programming, something had to rock your world even more so than it's already been rocked, and it sounds like this is what you, I mean, just looking at it from a, from an, like, not that we, you needed this, but that's the result of it, like it shifted your entire world into a new path that would, if that hadn't have happened, Who are you?

Julie Cluff 52:45
Right,

Alex Ferrari 52:46
I'm asking seriously, have you thought of that?

Julie Cluff 52:48
Well, and here's the thing, this is, this is, I had gone through two and a half years of therapy, I had PTSD after the accident, I had complicated complex grief that I was dealing with weeks of therapy. My therapist, who wasn't somebody who calls you at home, would call me at home because she was worried about me, and I'd even tried a medication at one point because she suggested maybe I should try to get on a medication. She's like, feel like the chemistry in your brain has just changed so much, and, and I tried something in it, like, oh yeah, like, talk about voices in your head, and these aren't the kinds that are like voices,

Alex Ferrari 53:28
They're kind, gentle spirit guys.

Julie Cluff 53:32
This was, and so, within three days, I just, I threw those away. This isn't going to work for me. My, I'm pretty sensitive to things, and so that was that was hard, so I, I was going through a lot trying to, to overcome this grief. After this healing experience, it was a year later we moved, and we moved away from where we were, and I will say that my husband lost his faith in church and in all of that pretty quickly after the kids passed away, but we moved, and that was a whole different wake-up call. I went into another level of depression,

Alex Ferrari 54:17
Of course,

Julie Cluff 54:17
And because I moved away from all of my kids' friends, I moved away from all of this, but in that space, and I only lived there for two years. We moved away, we were there for two years, and I moved back, and that was interesting. But while I was there, while I was in Louisville, we moved to Louisville, Kentucky, I was having these impressions, like, you know, you're supposed to do something with this, and I would dismiss it immediately. Yeah, like, who wants to hear this story? This is nobody wants to down this. Yeah, exactly. People would ask me how many children I have, and it has a hard question. That's just triggering that. It's a conversation starter for most people, and, and they don't know what they're getting into, and they ask that question.

Alex Ferrari 55:07
It's an innocent question. Yeah, like, how's your day?

Julie Cluff 55:10
Well, actually, let me tell you, so, so we had moved, and I was going kind of going through this other level of depression, and interestingly, again, the spirit spoke to me and said you're never going to go back to that place that you were, because I was nervous, I was nervous I was going to go back to that darkness that I had felt before, but I got this reassurance that I wouldn't, and that just brought me to the next level of healing. So we talk about being awake, but we're awake, but we're constantly awaking to a new level,

Alex Ferrari 55:43
It's never, a next level, if you will, a next level of a next level soul, if you will.

Julie Cluff 55:48
Good, good one, good one. Yeah, but I kept, I kept getting this message that I needed to do something with this, and and I kept thinking, oh no, nobody wants to hear this story, but also the thought kept coming to me, I could have died too. There's a reason I'm still here. Why am I still here? And then I had an experience in 2012 where I was introduced to this couple, and this man had gone through some really challenging mental health issues, and he had, he had experienced a healing, and some, some healing from his, his experience, and he was helping other people, and had this, I just met this couple, and at this lunch, my mom turns to me and says, "Julie, share your story, and I went, 'Oh yeah. So I did begrudgingly. I shared my story, and as we were walking out of that restaurant, that man took me by the arm, and he said, 'You're supposed to do something with this. He says, 'I don't know what it is. This brings tears to my eyes to saying it out loud. She says, I don't, I can't tell you what it is, but you're supposed to do something with this, and it was as if lightning struck me. It was as if my whole soul entered my body in that moment. It was as if God was standing in front of me, saying, and He was telling me what I had been hearing, but ignoring. So it took me a little while to kind of figure out, like, what is that thing, what is that thing that I'm supposed to be doing. I didn't know what it was, but my eyes were open to it, and it was about a year after that, maybe two, somebody else said the same thing to me, "You're supposed to be doing something with this.

Alex Ferrari 57:39
Yeah,

Julie Cluff 57:39
And eventually I came across coaching, and when I came across coaching, that just resonated with me. Oh, okay, I'm supposed to be coaching, and, and we had a family business, and you know, I was an entrepreneur, and I was studying coaching, thinking, well, the low hanging fruit is I can help entrepreneurs with their mindset, but it kept coming back, like I needed to talk about grief and healing, and my initial thought was, because, like I said, I'd gone through all these years of therapy after the accident, and actually after that experience, where I woke up, I went back to my therapist, and I was like, "Why am I here? and she's like, you're good, and I walked out of her office, and I thought I'm good, but what I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life now, because three years before I was a homeschool mom, I was, I was, I was in line to take over the homeschool group, I was, I thought that my kids would grow up, they would have kids, and I would be the homeschool grandma that would go around to conferences speaking, because I would speak at conferences. I, that's what I thought I would be doing. And so I walked out of her office thinking, yeah, I'm good, but I don't know who I am or what I'm supposed to be doing with my life. So I discovered coaching, and in that process I thought that what I was going to be doing was helping people rebuild their life after loss, which was the name of my company, Build a Life After Loss, which I eventually sold, by the way, but at any rate I created this whole program that I realized that I needed to not only have coaching skills, I needed grief skills, and then I began to develop a grief program and a model of healing and five foundations of growth, and it was remarkable working with people, and during that process, and I don't say this to just anybody, but I'm going to say this to you, and the whoever happens to listen, I felt Elizabeth Cooper Ross in the room while I was writing that.

Alex Ferrari 59:53
Who's Elizabeth?

Julie Cluff 59:53
So she is the pioneer of the five founding, or she's the pioneer of the Five Stages of Grief.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:01
Oh, wow, really?

Julie Cluff 1:00:02
Yeah, palliative care, hospice, all of that.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:06
Wow.

Julie Cluff 1:00:06
And she was there with me while I was writing this program, and at the time I thought I actually didn't share that with anybody for a long time, because I don't want to be.. I don't want.. first of all, honestly, it sounds a little egotistical, and I don't like that, because we think of that in this world, but it's not like that on the other side.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:27
It's like Jesus is talking to me, yeah,

Julie Cluff 1:00:31
He does so, and that's right, and it's, but I said I, I did end up telling a friend, I said this is really strange, but I feel like Dr. Elizabeth Cooper Ross is with me while I'm writing this, and she literally broke into tears. She just like fell apart in that moment, super sensitive. She's like, she absolutely is. So she can, she confirmed it for me in that moment, but as I was working with people, I would feel their loved ones in the room,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:06
So you were, you were opening up mediumship abilities,

Julie Cluff 1:01:09
And I didn't, I wasn't intending to, it was just happening, but I didn't know how to say, "Hey, Alex, by the way, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:18
Uncle Bob is behind you,

Julie Cluff 1:01:19
Your Uncle Bob is here in the room, whispering in my ear, and this is what he's telling me, but I would use the information they were giving me, and it was so helpful, and again, I didn't know what to do with that, but I had learned to communicate with my daughter, and my son, and my brother, and at that point it was 2020 My book had just come out. When I wrote my book, I was still very much in the Mormon bubble,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:48
Really. So, you were.. it's.. you have not left the church yet.

Julie Cluff 1:01:50
No,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:51
All of this is happening while you're in the church.

Julie Cluff 1:01:54
Yes.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:55
Wow,

Julie Cluff 1:01:56
But I was.. I was teaching. It was funny, because in my mind I would look at what was being taught, and I would think we're all just, you know, very much a lot of members are kind of like early in their development, that's the way I would look at it, right, in their spiritual development, that's the way we see it, and then I started to see, wait a second, a lot of this that I'm looking at, it's not feeling correct and not feeling right, it's not just the people around me, it's coming from the top, and I would start hearing these things from the top and go, that's not aligning with what I'm getting, so it was right after my book came out, it's 2020 the middle of the lockdown. I'm in a parking lot, it's middle of the summer. I get in the car and I feel my friend's son with me, and he had just passed two weeks before. He was a young man, and I thought, I don't know what to do with this.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:58
Yeah, you can't say anything to your friend,

Julie Cluff 1:03:00
And I did the only thing I could think to do. I pulled out my phone, and I just started putting the messages that I was hearing in my phone, and eventually I delivered that message to her.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:10
How did that work?

Julie Cluff 1:03:12
She's pretty private, so, and I was already struggling to kind of stay connected with her, and we lived in different areas at that time, and so forth. So I know she got the message, but I didn't really hear too much from her after that. But then a year or two, I don't even know how much time had passed, but I was telling another friend again. I wasn't sharing a lot of this. I was very much in the spiritual closet, but I was telling another friend about my experience with, you know, having this young man show up, or having I'd be working with somebody whose son had passed, you know, at his own hand, and I would hear her son in my ear, just like, just like as strongly as he could, saying I don't want her to feel guilty. This isn't about her.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:05
Yeah,

Julie Cluff 1:04:06
This isn't about her. This is not her fault. And so all this was happening, and my friend said to me, What if you leaned into it a little bit?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:14
This is a non-Mormon friend.

Julie Cluff 1:04:15
This is a Mormon friend.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:17
Interesting.

Julie Cluff 1:04:18
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:19
So they're fat. She was fascinated with what was going on.

Julie Cluff 1:04:22
Right, well, and there's a lot of people in the LDS community who are very energy healers who are very involved into woo, in the woo, yeah, really, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:34
But that's frowned upon,

Julie Cluff 1:04:35
It is,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:37
But they keep it quiet.

Julie Cluff 1:04:37
It's not

Alex Ferrari 1:04:39
Interesting, really?

Julie Cluff 1:04:41
There a lot of people living very, very close to the to the spirit, and interesting, it's really interesting.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:48
And still go to church on Sunday?

Julie Cluff 1:04:49
Yeah, and so in this experience where she said lean into it, I thought, okay, so I sat down at my desk one day and I thought, okay, I'm gonna lean into this a little bit. And immediately I felt the daughter of one past client that I hadn't talked to for a while and the father of another client. Well, what happened with this father is his father gave me this message, and at the end of the message he says, "Tell my daughter that when she gets married, she has children, I'll be there for her. Well, when the last time I had met with this woman. It had been a while, and she had had very difficult relationships, and I didn't even know if she wanted to get married, so I was very resistant to that idea of having that message. So I kind of argued with spirit. This is what I do, I argue with spirit, and I said I can't really say that, and it was so insistent. The message was so insistent. So I delivered the message. I actually wrote to her, and I said, this might seem a little weird, but you know, I had a visit with your father. Are you interested in the message?

Alex Ferrari 1:05:57
Pass, pass the tea.

Julie Cluff 1:05:59
She said, yes, absolutely, and so I delivered the message to her. She said, and she was so grateful. She was so grateful, and I kid you not. Less than two months later, her aunt, who I was connected with, posted pictures of her wedding. She was actually engaged when I received that message. She was actually planning her message, her wedding, when I received that message, and I had no idea.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:26
Wow,

Julie Cluff 1:06:26
And I had argued with spirit, saying, "I can't say that

Alex Ferrari 1:06:29
She's not even married,

Julie Cluff 1:06:29
She doesn't want to, I don't think she wants to get married,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:33
And Spirit's like, "We know better,

Julie Cluff 1:06:35
We know better.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:36
So, so, at what point did you finally officially leave the church, and how did that, how did that go?

Julie Cluff 1:06:44
It went okay. My immediate family, my husband, and three of my four living children had all left the church at that point, had already left, and I was still going every week, and I was seeing the handwriting on the wall, and there were things that were, there were more things coming to my attention, and it was probably it's been about three years ago when I started to exit, so it hasn't been that long ago, and honestly, I think I would probably still be in the angry stages of things if it weren't for all the work that I've done in grief and understanding grief, and when you, when you leave a foundation, a religion, an organization, even if somebody leaves a career they've been working someplace for 20 years and they leave, it's a grief, it's a grief experience, and a lot of times we just associate grief with a death, but it's anything that we have lost creates feelings of grief, and that, and it was really challenging, and so luckily my kids and my husband were all great, even my, you know, one child who's still in great great relationship, but there's some distant, there's some other relationships that are a little challenging. I can say

Alex Ferrari 1:08:08
I can only imagine,

Julie Cluff 1:08:09
And I don't have as many, as much association with, sure, yeah, but I had lived, I had lived in Florida, I'd lived in Texas, and I lived in Kentucky, I'd lived in Utah, I'd lived all over the place, and, and I have a lot of followers on Facebook, and I thought everybody still sees me as this very devout Mormon girl, and I am not that anymore, and I knew that I couldn't be authentic and still have people thinking this is what I was, or what, how I felt, or my belief system. So I came out publicly on Facebook, which is a big no-no, in the church, in the church, yes, and but it was, it was absolutely beautiful, the responses I got, because the members were polite, mostly, and then the, but the private messages I got, I got dozens of private messages from people who were either trying to leave or were still in, but had left mentally, and they weren't believing it anymore, but they were still very seen as active in church, that's so that was really sad and hard, and and then I became more public, and then I got all the backlash, and all the, yeah, and I know people are not.. I know people just want the best for other people in general. In fact, I'll tell you this story, you know, after the kids passed away that day, like in the hospital, I. Received this message that I was not to be concerned about what other people say or think about what happened, which was really interesting, because a lot of people, as I've worked with a lot of people who are grieving, I've seen a lot of people that really hung up on what somebody says. Oh yeah, but people are just doing the best they can, and I like, I'm in this, you know, I been in the grief world, you know, working in the grief world, and I still say dumb things when I'm trying to, trying to comfort someone, so that was such a huge, huge blessing to me to receive that message, because there were, for the most part, no matter what anybody said, I just knew that they were just doing the best they could to comfort and to, to be there for me.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:52
So, as you have gone through this, we've kind of hinted upon it, that there's certain things that have opened up in you,

Julie Cluff 1:10:59
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:00
Certain abilities that have opened up with you, and you've been dealing with all of that, as well as everything else. You really did go through that spiritual supermarket and picked up a lot.

Julie Cluff 1:11:10
I did. Oh my god, a little of this and a little of that. You know, my life is good, but you know, even my therapist at one point, she's like, I want you to write down all the losses that you've had, and I filled like five pages, and I came back, and she's like, this is really unusual for somebody

Alex Ferrari 1:11:26
To still be speaking, yeah, and not in the same asylum somewhere,

Julie Cluff 1:11:31
And not to say, you know, it's not a competition, so if you're, if you experience the loss, I just did a reading for someone the other night, and her father, you know, she, she said her first loss was her father at 60, and she was, she was 60, is what I'm saying, when he passed, and, and that is real, the grief is real, we, we all experience our grief at 100% no matter, you know, but I, I think part of I always felt like the grief and the losses that I had previous to my kids passing really helped me because I had already had those experiences and so I had that conversation on the back porch with myself, can I come back from this? Right, yeah, I so a few years ago, this was after 2020 I started seeing twelves everywhere. What is going on? And I was.. I, you don't know what this about me, but math was my favorite subject. I'm a very linear thinker, I'm like very black and white, like this is truth, this isn't, you know, blah blah blah, right? And I started seeing these twelves everywhere, and it opened me up to like angel numbers, and I started searching angel because I couldn't ignore it. And I'm born on the 12th of the month, which I didn't say, but my birthday was the same weekend as the accident, so my birthday was the 12th of May, and the accident was on the 13th of May, so there was a lot going on, lot of energy there, but the twelves were everywhere. I couldn't ignore them anymore. Started learning about angels, started connecting to angels at a different level, started receiving messages at a different level, started understanding the spirit that was speaking to me all my life, that he didn't understand that. Oh, I can actually go and speak to that spirit anytime. I can sit down and type out a question. Yeah, type out a question and receive an answer, right? So I started learning about angels, and I went to Cabo. This is about three years ago, three and a half years ago, and we went on a whale watching trip, and I was really grumpy, because it was middle of the afternoon, I was tired, we weren't actually getting on a boat, then when we got on a boat, it was a dumb boat, it was like an oversized life raft, seriously, and I thought, this is the dumbest whale watching trip ever, we'd never been on one before, and I was excited about it, but when we got there, I was like, this is really dumb, and we're like halfway through the trip, and we're not seeing anything except for a tail like way off in the distance, and and I heard in my head, Julie, you have angels, and so I started repeating in my head, Thank you, angels, for bringing the whales close to the boat, thank you angels for bringing the boat close to the whales, and I just started repeating that like a mantra, and within 10 minutes we were surrounded by whales. It was the most blissful experience of my life to date, honestly. Like, I was.. it feels like an out-of-body experience. I could. I was so awed by the experience that I couldn't even take out my phone, and I'm watching these whales, and then a whole pod of dolphins came and swam next to the.. I mean, it was.. it was spectacular. And then our excursion guide said, we've got to go. Back, like you know, this is over, and all the whales started to swim off, and then this one whale came up, put his tail up, and started waving goodbye. I know that's not technically what they're doing, but that's what it feels like when you're at Sea World, or you're on a watching trip, and and the next day that voice came to me and said, "Start teaching about angels. Wow, and I went home that next week and started doing webinars about angels, and and then that all led to mediumship and

Alex Ferrari 1:15:30
Channeling

Julie Cluff 1:15:30
And channeling, and that was crazy. I was actually taking a class about Akashic Records, and in this class we were supposed to be practicing reading for someone, and as I was reading for someone, all of a sudden words started coming out of my mouth before they were consciously going through my head, and I, what is that? And I'd had a couple experiences like that in the past, where I said something to my husband one day, and I was like, I am so sorry, I have no idea where that came from, but it, it changed his life, like he changed his health routine because of what I said in that moment, but I would have never consciously have said that, but what I did, but at a day rate, yeah, it's been, it's been a miraculous, interesting journey.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:19
Well, I mean, since you, since you, we brought it up now with the channeling, yeah, you've seen the shows that we like, we always love having channelers on and talk. What is your process of connecting to angels? And if we can connect to them, can we ask them a few questions about,

Julie Cluff 1:16:34
We can, they call themselves the Council of Wisdom and

Alex Ferrari 1:16:39
Good branding, good

Julie Cluff 1:16:40
It's a collective, yeah. I won't go into all how that came about, but at any rate, yeah, they call themselves the Council of Wisdom. It's a collective. I have tried to get a number from them, and they're like, yeah, don't worry about it. I'm like, okay, I won't. And my process is I just get quiet for a minute, and then I go into channel, and

Alex Ferrari 1:17:02
So it's trance,

Julie Cluff 1:17:03
And yeah, and internally, how it happens for me is I will hear a phrase in my head, and I will hear it repeated, and then I know that we're there. I don't know if that makes sense, but the

Alex Ferrari 1:17:19
First I've heard of that, I mean, that's every channel is different, everyone, everyone does their thing, and then the, the energy that comes through them, very different personalities, very different energy. What I always tell people, and I'm sure you've kind of gone through this as now kind of being more public about your channeling, is people like, is it real?

Julie Cluff 1:17:40
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:17:41
You know, is it an evil spirit? Is it that kind of stuff? And I always tell people, I don't care what the package is, is the information good? Is it helping you? If it isn't, let it go, it's okay.

Julie Cluff 1:17:54
Yeah. Well, anything that we say, period. I don't claim to be the guru of anything. I think the days of the guru are gone.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:02
I think the days of the guru, as it was laid out for us in the West, is gone. I think the traditional Indian Vedic aspect of the yogi,

Julie Cluff 1:18:12
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:18:12
That's different, because a true guru does not say I am the way. The true guru teaches you how to get back to the power that's within you.

Julie Cluff 1:18:23
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:18:24
That's what all of these did.

Julie Cluff 1:18:26
I love that.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:26
Yeah, Christ was always talking about the power of the kingdom of heaven is within you. What I can do, you can do, and more. These are the, these are basic core teachings of Christ. Buddha did the same thing, Vishnu did the same. Everyone, a true guru, true guide, a true teacher teaches you how to find the power within you. That's what we do here. That's what we always.. so I do agree with you. The guru, as the

Julie Cluff 1:18:52
Expert, that's the expert for you.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:54
Yeah, everything I am.. I'm obviously much more evolved than you. You must follow me. And then it's just another, it's another dogmatic path, whereas the guru should be challenge everything I say. Is this resonating with you? Are you, are you getting into you?

Julie Cluff 1:19:17
Like, I start every session that I do with people, you are your highest authority. Every session,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:23
Discernment is something that needs to be taught more.

Julie Cluff 1:19:25
So, no matter what we talk about here, you choose what you do. If

Alex Ferrari 1:19:29
Exactly, so that's why I always say, and then, and then the, the arguments, like, well, it must be evil spirits or dark energies. I'm like, they're horrible at their job, because, generally speaking, I have had many channels on, and none of them have gone. You must eat the goat on the third. Like, no, no, it's usually love and light.

Julie Cluff 1:19:48
It's interesting too, because early on, when I was channeling, and I would channel for people, and I would, I would literally, I'd be hearing the words as they were coming out of my mouth and. To be thinking, should you be saying that? Should you be saying it that way?

Alex Ferrari 1:20:03
You question it.

Julie Cluff 1:20:04
I was, my consciousness was in the background questioning.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:07
So, the funny thing is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just bring in one of my favorite channels, Paul Selig. Paul is similar, he argues with them, and he has the guides that come in, and while we were doing, we did a mastery course here a couple weeks ago. Actually, they come in, it is hilarious. We start recording, and the first lesson, it's like he's in the way, he's trying to do it, and they're like, get out of the way. Second to get out of the way, he gets like, okay, I don't have to do the heavy lifting, let them do the heavy lifting. They come in, but the funny thing about it is he would say, "Welcome to lesson number two, and then the guides would just take over. I'm like, "We will now talk the way we would like, not the man in the man in the chair, and they just start going into the lesson. I'm like dying. I'm like, and every lesson was like, "We will not, we will do what we want, not what the man in the chair, would like to say, and this is how we will say it, and it's just genius to listen to. So they do have their, like, their energy that they just want to kind of put through, but that must be funny when you're like, wait a minute, and sometimes with, because he's the only one that can, that argues that I could think of off the top of my head, that argues with

Julie Cluff 1:21:17
I, I don't like having that reputation, but I do say that I do, do,

Alex Ferrari 1:21:22
But no, it's not a reputation, no, no, but it's not a reputation, actually, actually level, it's another level of authenticity for you, because you are questioning something, doesn't make sense to you, like, wait, I don't feel comfortable saying this, explain it deeper, and I've, I've heard, I've heard Paul sometimes the guys will be like, hold on a second, we must stop now, because Paul is questioning the, and that kind of thing.

Julie Cluff 1:21:44
Well, in the middle of my channeling, especially when I'm doing it for myself.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:48
Sure,

Julie Cluff 1:21:49
I will. They'll, they'll start to say something, and in the back of my brain I'm like, but what about this, and what about this? And they'll say, okay, according to what you, and they'll start answering the questions that I'm bringing forward, so that's interesting.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:04
Well, let's bring in the Council of Wisdom, and let's see what they have to say.

Julie Cluff 1:22:08
Let's do it. Thank you. Thank you for having us here today. We are so grateful for this opportunity. We are grateful for this opportunity to share love and light and peace, and we are grateful. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:25
Thank you for being here. We've been talking a lot about grief in this conversation. Can you give us any insights on how people can deal who are struggling right now with a tremendous amount of loss or grief, what they can do to help them get out of this darkness.

Julie Cluff 1:22:43
The darkness is real. The experience is real. It is to be in the experience. It is to not try to bypass the experience, but to be in the experience, to feel what you're feeling, but also feel those moments of joy, feel those moments of passion. When those moments arise, do not allow yourself to feel that you must suppress any of the emotions that you are having. It will feel like a very, we might say, violent roller coaster in the moment, because your emotions will be all over the place. This is to be expected. This is to be expected, and you can stay within that energy, to sit with that energy, to be with that energy of grief, and to also be in the energy of happiness when it, when it arises, because it will arise, and many will push the goodness away, and we would invite you to not push the goodness away, but to allow all of the emotions to arise and to move through. It is the moving through that you are experiencing. It is the moving of the energy, energy, energy is after all emotions are energy in motion.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:06
Can you explain to people listening why these, these terrible things, the way we look at them as terrible things, or tragic things, or traumatic things happen to us in our lives?

Julie Cluff 1:24:19
Well, from our vantage point, it is challenging for us to share the answer to that question, because we do not want to negate, we do not want to overlook the pain that is caused by these experiences. We acknowledge the pain caused by these experiences, and our explanation may feel somewhat clinical, it may feel somewhat cold in that you are having these experiences for your learning, you are having these experiences for the depth of your knowledge, you are having these experiences for the growth of your spiritual development, especially for those who are willing to look at their. Experiences that way, there are many, there are many, there are many who will not take the journey, they will stay within the pain of the experience, and that is part of their journey. Here it is not to from your vantage point or from Julie's or from anyone else's to talk them out of what they are experiencing or feeling, as it would not be beneficial to anyone to talk them out of anything that they're experiencing or feeling. It is rather to be with them in that experience, but for those who are willing, who are willing to move through the grief, they can look upon this grief and this experience as something that their soul chose before they came here. Their soul chose from a space of love and acceptance and peace, not from this space in which they find themselves now. So, it would make sense that the soul would choose things that the humanness that you are here would not understand.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:14
Can you explain to people who are watching, who have dealt with trauma and loss, what truly happens to the soul once they leave the body?

Julie Cluff 1:26:22
What truly happens to the soul once it leaves the body is it returns to that which it is, it returns to the higher knowing, it returns to the higher presence of that being, of that spirit, and each soul will have a little different experience transitioning, although each soul will be accompanied. There is no soul that is alone. We, we want you to know that there is no soul alone in passing, in death. There are always spirits around them that are there to assist them in their transition. Every soul will have a little different experience based on their belief systems as they are letting go of the earthly realm and as they are passing into the spirit realm, but at the end all souls will be in what you might call heaven. We do find that word we will say not fully complete, but it is a reference point by which many of you can understand.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:36
Can you please let people know, is there such a place as a hell or a negative experience for souls?

Julie Cluff 1:27:46
There is no hell. There is a residual, we will call it, of the earth that is taken with a soul when it leaves the earth, and so some people will come back from a near death experience talking about a hellish experience, but it is their soul, it is their spirit letting go of the earthly programming that they have experienced here. It is not an actual place or a destination as much as it is an experience of that particular soul of that particular spirit that must go through and we say must lightly they don't necessarily have to go through that but it may be in their process to go through that to experience the light as they move from the darkness of this earth to the light of their eternal existence.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:48
For all the souls who are watching this episode now and in the future, what is the message that you believe that they need to hear right now?

Julie Cluff 1:28:57
It is to believe that you, all each one of you, each one of you, each one of you have spirit team, you have a spirit guide, you have spirit angels and ancestors and family members, and so much love and light that is pouring, pouring from our dimension to your dimension and inviting you forward, inviting you into the inviting you into the light that they are here to promote the light, to promote your ascension from the darkness of your world here into the light that it can be that the light of we will say heaven on earth, for to use a simple phrase that would be maybe helpful. We thank you again for this opportunity. We are so very, very grateful for your platform and for the opportunity. To speak at this time, we thank you. Goodbye.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:05
And how was that

Julie Cluff 1:30:06
Great!

Alex Ferrari 1:30:07
How do you feel?

Julie Cluff 1:30:07
I feel great.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:08
Do you remember it?

Julie Cluff 1:30:10
I do. There's like, there's little pieces. In fact, it's funny because in the middle of it I remember thinking, oh, I hadn't ever thought of it that way as they were talking, and then, but now I can't even tell you what it was to go back and listen, because

Alex Ferrari 1:30:25
Very beautiful,

Julie Cluff 1:30:27
A lot of times when I will channel, and then I'll go back and I'll read it, I'm like, wow, there was a lot more there than I thought there was, so yeah, and it's a lot of it's the energy too,

Alex Ferrari 1:30:38
Yeah, How does you, because normally from my understanding, you have to kind of ramp your nervous system up.

Julie Cluff 1:30:43
I knew you're going to say that, and to be quite frank, my body has gone, has been through it's kind of like I've taken it on summer car ride, and it's, it's a, it's a little, it's a little beat up, but we're doing okay.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:01
It sounds, it sounds like that from your life experiences, you have been just already building up to a place where it just turned on.

Julie Cluff 1:31:10
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:31:10
As opposed to others that have to really work at it, because you've gone through so much drama in your life, that

Julie Cluff 1:31:16
Yeah, it happened very quickly,

Alex Ferrari 1:31:18
And without trying, really,

Julie Cluff 1:31:19
Without really trying. It was kind of crazy. Yeah, was gonna say, but I will say, okay. So, I do want to back up, because remember, I told you I went through two and a half years of therapy, and I had this journal, and she was asking me to write things. I wasn't doing my job, because I wasn't doing anything, but a month after that light switch went on. I started writing in that journal again, and to see the difference is like, wow, wow. But I've been doing that since 2010 I've been writing questions and writing down the answers since 2000

Alex Ferrari 1:31:56
So, you've been slowly building up.

Julie Cluff 1:31:59
I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't realize that this interest, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:32:02
That's fascinating.

Julie Cluff 1:32:03
It was much later I was like, where did this come from? And because I was doing hour long sessions with people a month after this started happening vocally, I don't know how this happened.

Alex Ferrari 1:32:16
And when you do a session with the with the Council of the Council of Wisdom, they. it's just like doing a session,

Julie Cluff 1:32:22
Yeah. And I would actually come in and out,

Alex Ferrari 1:32:25
Yeah.

Julie Cluff 1:32:25
So I would come out and say, okay, what's.. what's your, you know, next? And then, yep, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:32:32
Can you, can you jump in real quick? I have a question for them,

Julie Cluff 1:32:34
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:32:35
I have a question.

Julie Cluff 1:32:39
Thank you. Thank you, Alex. We are ready for your question.

Alex Ferrari 1:32:42
My question to you is, can you explain to people what a soul group or a soul family is?

Julie Cluff 1:32:47
A soul group or a soul family is a group of souls that have made a bond, have made a contract, have created a, a, for, again, lack of a better word, a bond of of energy in which they travel through space and time, time again from a space, from a spirit standpoint, together they travel through iterations of earth and maybe other galaxies, other planets, other dimensions together, and it is not that they are always together, it is not that they are always together, it is that they will choose a group to go in together, and it is much like a parachuter, they have the helicopter above and the operators and the helicopter, and and a group has decided to parachute down, and they still have the part of the group in the helicopter making sure that the terrain is correct and that everything is the mission is being executed as needed, and so that's the way that we would explain it, is not that everyone that you know on earth is part of your soul family, but those in which you have a strong energetic bond, for example, some people will say they met their spouse, and the first time they met them, they said, "Oh, what are you doing here? And yet they had never seen them before, and so it is not that they are all here together at one time. It is that there is a an energy that propels this group forward to experience things as a group. Does that make sense?

Alex Ferrari 1:34:48
It does. It does. It does make sense, but so, but there's multiple players, if you will. If there, if it's a cast of actors going through different adventures. In in the material world, there are actors that kind of come in and out, depending on the lifetime. So, let's say there's four group core, but in the next lifetime, you might be bringing in someone else who was maybe just an uncle in this lifetime, or maybe a distant friend in this lifetime, but in the next lifetime, they're your father. Things like that, does that make sense?

Julie Cluff 1:35:21
Yes, it does make sense. And we love that you brought forward this idea of an actor, because we're thinking of, like, a play that would be put on. You have some members of the group that is putting on the play that are on the stage, and others that are behind the scenes, and so this is very much how a soul family or soul group would work, that some would be in front and others would be behind the scenes.

Alex Ferrari 1:35:49
And finally, is there any other message that you would like to leave for the audience?

Julie Cluff 1:35:53
We would say to enjoy your experiences here, to not be take spirituality quite so seriously. Yes, it is has its serious elements to it, and we are here to love and guide you, but we again, we just bring forward so much love, so much peace, so much calm to your soul, to your being, to your experience here, and we invite you to connect with that energy, and to be with that energy, and to let go of any expectations that it's going to look a certain way. Not everyone is going to be a channel, not everyone is going to be a medium, not everyone is going to be a doctor or an attorney. It is in your sole plan to play out your life time and your life experience in the manner in which you have planned it.

Alex Ferrari 1:36:55
Thank you. And we're back.

Julie Cluff 1:36:57
We're back.

Alex Ferrari 1:36:58
I just had a question about the soul family. I needed to, I wanted to get their opinion of it.

Julie Cluff 1:37:01
That was really interesting.

Alex Ferrari 1:37:03
Yeah, you're like fascinating.

Julie Cluff 1:37:05
Yeah, because they'll bring, they'll drop pictures into my head, and so they showed me the whole one. I just got back from New York, so it's interesting that they brought that in. The Broadway, the Broadway vibe of the whole thing,

Alex Ferrari 1:37:17
It's like instead of Hamilton. Julie, where can people find out more about you and the amazing work you're doing?

Julie Cluff 1:37:23
Juliecluff.com it's that simple. Go to juliecluff.com I love showing up on Instagram. I have a YouTube at Julie Cluff Coaching, where I do, I have a podcast called Light the Day, where I do interviews similar to use, not at this scale, but and I do share channeled messages on Sundays. I just started that, probably two months ago, channeled messages on Sundays, and some other things that happened there, and Facebook, and all the things. So, yeah, juliecluff.com If you go to juliecluff.com right kind of right underneath the header, you can download an angel guide, and it's all about connecting with our angels.

Alex Ferrari 1:38:05
Julie, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for not only being here and this amazing conversation, but having the bravery of what you're doing to come out to leave an organized religion that didn't connect with you or vibe with you, and to publicly talk about this grief in a way that is helping people. So, I applaud you, and I appreciate everything you're doing to awaken the planet.

Julie Cluff 1:38:32
Thank you so much. It's been absolute pleasure.