Subhash Jain is a Professor Emeritus in the Department of Civil & Environmental Engineering at The University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, USA. He was born in India in a family that practiced Jainism and continued to do so after coming to the US in 1967.
After retiring in 2003, he concentrated on studying Indian Philosophy, particularly the Jain karma doctrine, and received another Ph.D. degree in Jain ology from the University of Madras, Chennai, India. He is the author of three books entitled ‘Rebirth of the Karma Doctrine,’ ‘Karma Doctrine and Rebirth in Jainism: A Logical Perspective,’ and ‘The Path to Inner Peace: Mastering Karma.’ He is keenly interested in delving into the nature of reality, has published several articles in magazines and journals on karma doctrine, and has given lectures in seminars and conferences.
Please enjoy my conversation with Subhash Jain.
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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 202
Subhash Jain 0:00
Minimize basically your intention desires and what we call basically attachment and aversion. Some people like you get attached, something you hate, you just start taking. So according to my fate, one should avoid attachment and aversion.
Alex Ferrari 0:32
I'd like to welcome to the show Subhash Jain. How you doin Subhash?
Subhash Jain 0:36
Hello Alex, how are you?
Alex Ferrari 0:38
I'm very good. My friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm excited to talk to you about your book, The Path to Inner Peace: Mastering Karma. And Karma is a very interesting word. We talk about it. It's almost in the it's an old lexicon. It's in the zeitgeist, people talk about karma, Instant Karma, all of these kinds of things as as like that. He was mean to somebody that all of a sudden, a truck hits him and like, that's Instant Karma. I'm like, I'm not sure if that's. Yeah. So my first question to you before we jump into into karma is what's, How did you start your spiritual journey?
Subhash Jain 1:17
I came to this country long time back in 1967, you can see is about 55 years ago, okay. And of course, at that time, I was fairly young, and I'm coming from a country where everybody knows karma. Sure. And I landed in 67, where practically nobody here at that time, knew this word karma, very few people, we will discover, landing from a country where everybody knows karma to a country where technically very few people started knowing about karma at that time, I'm talking about 5050 or five years ago. Yeah, but anyway, so I started working here, then they start asking me question, because I came from, for me, fate, which originated India might usually my last name Gen belongs to a fate called Jenny's. And you probably know their forfait they originated in India, most people are familiar with Hinduism. And then they knew start knowing about good news, because they're talking about yoga and meditation and things like that. So, the last time say 30 years, the Buddhists, but that there is a third fate jellies and which is as old as the other two feet. So Hindus and Buddhism is fairly, very ancient trait. And the fourth fate is Sikhism, which is a fairly recent one, which originated about 600 years ago is, is fairly recent one, but any other forsake they, of course, believe in this what we call karma adoption. And so people knew that I'm coming from a country where everybody talks about karma. So they start talking me about this word, karma. But then I found out I really didn't know much about karma. Don't I born in a fate where I should know about karma? Because my fate is just practically based on karma doctrine. So then I started reading about it. And what I had to I had more questions, actually, I really didn't answer a lot of questions. And then I really became interested in this karma doctrine, I knew that there are a lot of things which I really didn't understand. And then I start contemplating and thinking about it. And one thing, common mistake, everybody thinks they try to relate every event every occurring in the world, by karma, is not correct. Everything is not controlled by karma doctrine. So it's very important people should know that they shouldn't really think that everything that we do, whatever action we are doing, everything is controlled by karma, which is not correct. So that was my main theme, when he started, I wanted to know what kind of action what what what are the events, which are controlled by karma, which are the things which are not controlled by karma. And so that was the most important thing, I yield my book control.
Alex Ferrari 4:37
So go back for a second, the your faith is Jainism, which I'm familiar with. To a certain extent, I have heard about it. I've heard that it's older or just about as old as Hinduism, because Hinduism goes back 6000 years, arguably older, depending on the Vedas, and how you interpret it.
Subhash Jain 4:56
Yeah, but I think if you are Can you Jan even say no Jainism with older than Vedas, but it really is a controversy and nobody can resolve this controversy, right? That's good enough. I take your eyes failure. Oh, really?
Alex Ferrari 5:12
It's a fairly Oh, really? Can you can you because I don't know much about it, can you kind of give me the broad strokes on the beliefs of Jainism.
Subhash Jain 5:21
I think the main difference between because people know about Hinduism for me, which was the founder of Buddhism, and our large founder, we call it Mahavira. They were contemporary Margarita, and Buddha, they were contemporary actors, they found each other, they met each other, and they had a discord cheater. So I would say it's definitely 2600 years old religion, because both time everybody agrees that Buddha was there about 2600 years ago. So the main difference is that both Buddhism and genuine they don't believe in a creator. That's the main difference. I think much faith believes in some kind of a creator. But these are the only two faiths in the world. They don't believe in a creator, they think this universe was there all the time, and it will be there. So you really don't need a creator to create anything.
Alex Ferrari 6:24
That so in other words, yes. Well, it's the concept of God has always been he's never, it was never before God, there's never an after God, it's just always been, which is a very difficult concept to, for people in the materialistic materialism world to understand because here, everything is created. Yeah, everything has an end at one point. So okay, so that's the, that's the main, the main doctrine, if you will, of Jainism and, and Buddhism.
Subhash Jain 6:50
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they don't believe in God.
Alex Ferrari 6:54
They believe they believe that there's something that has always been, which is our universe, and that we are in it. And then there's a cycle of, of birth and death of us here. But you do also believe in a soul. Eternal energy of some sort? Correct?
Subhash Jain 7:10
Yeah, definitely. You see, yeah, if you believe, genuinely think that this cosmos, or this universe is composed of six, what we call there is a word called the VR which substances there are six substances, which compose this world. And everybody understand better the matter is definitely one of the chapters which is there. And not scientists, but much they believe in soul. So there is another substance, which we'll call so there is another substance in this universe, which is so but then there are four other substances. And again, scientists believed to other substances called space and time, for genuine stinks. Yeah, there are two other substances space and time, they're also part of this universe. So the universe cannot exist without space and time. So we call these as kind of a substance which exist in the world. But besides these four that two other substances, which are really literally the ability understand, and we call medium of motion, and medium of less, we think that anything to move you need some other thing which helped moving pace. So we call these sub tests, which scientists sometimes that called Stop calling ether they, because they think they like to do you need some kind of a medium, light cannot travel without a medium, that kind of wave. So they thought all for all these ways, you need a medium and they start talking about the substance called ether. But they had this problem and Einstein had problem with this ether. And sometimes they say, yeah, there is a ether and supply they know we can explain this universe without ether. So it's consigned scientists are not really sure about this concept, but anyway, in Japanese, we think you definitely need a medium which had other substances can move matter or so to move in the studios. And we call this substance of motion. And similarly, you need another subtlety called medium of rest. All these planets are evolving in some kind of equilibrium. steadiness and you need a substance so that everything is in equilibrium, we call the medium of rest. So these are the six substances which this is really concept in general is we talk about all these different substances in the universe, and they can get six substances the universe, and definitely soul and metal are the two most imported substances. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 10:01
That's really fascinating. I've never heard those concepts before I understand them. But I understand the concepts behind it. But I've never heard those before. Let me ask you, because you've mentioned you mentioned Einstein, and, and you mentioned scientists. It's really interesting now, that that so many, so many of the concepts that have been around with Jainism and Hinduism, and in the Vedas, these basic concepts have been around for 1000s of years, and scientist and science are starting to catch up to those ideas. So what are your feelings on how science, quantum physics and things like that are starting to really intertwine with concepts of faith, religion, spirituality?
Subhash Jain 10:42
Yeah, usually, that's what I think we build the one group in India right now, and I belong to that group, we are trying to combine these two ideas, because they are still a wide gap, what the way scientists thinks and the way Jenny's think about the universe. And the idea has from a positive direction, reads the scientists, when they talk about metals, they start with a solid liquid gases, and they go to smaller the smaller particles, and they start breaking these atoms and molecules into atoms and quads and smaller and smaller particles. So this is the direction they are going, they started with big molecules and then start breaking those molecules into smaller particles. And they are now talking about quads into different types of particles, small particles, but Jen is we start in the opposite way, they started with the smallest particle, and which they call like an atom, not exactly atoms, the smallest, which cannot be divided for the smallest, ultimate particle, we call it. So we start with ultimate particles. And these ultimate particularly start joining each other, they become plasma, and then other things and liquid gases and solids, liquids and solids and things like so we started from fine particles and start making big particles. And somehow we want to converge the way the scientists are thinking. And the way the gents are thinking this still wide gap. And we are trying to beat this get as narrow as possible. But yeah, you're right. I think there are a lot of similarities in our thinking. But there's still a wide gap.
Alex Ferrari 12:29
We're Yeah, and there's no question. There's still a wide gap. But the concepts of quantum physics with either something as simple as not simple, but something as popular as maybe simulation theory, and Maya, or the illusion, those two concepts are just being explained in completely different ways. But they're the same concept, which before 20 years ago, 30 years ago, that wasn't a conversation.
Subhash Jain 12:55
Alex Ferrari 12:56
So let me ask you, for people who don't understand if someone's coming into this conversation for the first time, can you give us a basic understanding of what the word karma means?
Subhash Jain 13:07
See, the basically, I think, it generally is a slightly different concept of this word karma. Basically, they think action is a word equivalent word in English will be action. We do karma all the time, because we do action all the time. For example, I am doing action of speaking, and you are doing the action of listening or vice versa. But we are doing this this action or this karma. So I'm doing of karma of speaking and listening. But again, the concept is that every action has consequences. And those entities, basically basic, I think, in all faith for faith, which originated in India, they believe in this concept, that everybody has to bear the consequences of their action. And this is what basically is karma doctrine is, and the main problem is, that all consequences are not governed by karma, doctrine that can be in problem. And so there are certain consequences, which are controlled by karma doctrine, and which will have to bear in your future life those consequences. And so, then this information is stored, that what consequences you will bear in your future life in Japanese, they are restored in some kind of a very, very fine matter. And that fine matter we also called karmic particles. That's the main difference between among the four faith genuine is the only faith then Keep all these karmic consequences they are in a very, very fine particle we call karmic particles.
Alex Ferrari 15:09
Where does that live in the soul?
Subhash Jain 15:12
Yeah, that those are remained is because the particle, when I use the word particle is definitely metal is not full. And full, I'm made of two things I am made of metal, which is my body. And of course, I have full, which my consciousness is part of the food. So I am made of two things solid metal. And so there is a karmic body inside my body. So I have this, what I call graph block block block body, which is my you can see my body, but there is another activity eventually find more body. And that's the main thing, those fine particles are so fine, nobody can see, even you cannot see under the microscope, this is like a very similar genetic body, but genetic body is still caught, you can see genes or DNA molecules by under electronic microscope, but the problem is discarded body is even more final more circular than the genetic body. And so I leave to at least a visa talking about it. Because scientists thinks 96% Matter of the universe is still not visible. They call dark matter and dark energy. For scientists think that they don't have really equipment called, or instruments to see this dark matter and darker than even they compute the mass of all these long galaxies, they can see only 4% visible one mess of of the universe, based on the standard model of universe, they find that they can see only 4% and 96% remaining mass is the called dark matter and dark energy. So we think this dark neck, Annika docman, ID is part of this what we call karmic metal. And so which is very many, this is the concept we have Jainism Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 17:17
It's really interesting, because everything you're saying, you know, within the spiritual, the spiritual ality aspects of it is all connected into the scientific parts of it, at least in the way you explain it, which is very unique. And in my experience, studying spirituality and speaking to people on my show, most people don't connect those two, I mean, quantum physicist I've had on the show do, who are a little farther along, but I've never had someone from the spiritual side really explain things on the, on the scientific side, even though it's scientific things that we can't, like you say, you know, observe, but the concepts are there. So it's really, really interesting. So as far as car as far as karma has concerns, okay, you said that every action has an equal and opposite reaction in the sense of karma. What constitutes karma? You know, obviously, if I kill somebody, I'd imagine that that is a karmic load that I will have to take with me, I'm assuming, I'm assuming
Subhash Jain 17:17
Yeah, yeah. That's what I prefer to use is karmic load. I use the word karmic debt.
Alex Ferrari 17:28
There. So it's a debt that I'm gonna have to pay.
Subhash Jain 18:10
Yeah, good. Yeah. People use both karmic load or karmic debt. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 18:31
But if I but if I cheat on my test in high school, I might, if I cheat on my test in high school, I, that's not the same as far like, is that do I have a karmic debt there or not? Yeah, definitely. Okay. So that's so what can So what doesn't constitute a karmic debt? That's a better question than
Subhash Jain 18:50
Okay. Yeah, usually, I think what we have to understand that there are two kinds of consequences. And one of the consequences investor, I think, name, that major mistake everybody makes. For example, when I go, for example, I used to work I used to teach, and I teaching was my action. And as a consequence of a teaching, I used to get some reward, which was my salary. So my income was basically the consequence of my teaching. And definitely, there's no doubt because I was doing action of teaching. It has consequences. And that consequence of teaching has consequence of this reward or salary, what I was getting, for that type of consequence is not governed by karma doctrine. That's the main problem. Because this is definitely a consequence of my action of teaching. But but that consequence is not governed by karma doctrine. That's the mistake people Make if somebody is rich, and they take off and get rich, whatever wealth they are getting this is due to their karma. Everybody think and that's a common mistake, everybody wants to relate all their wealth, karma and according to me My mind is thinking is that an event is the control like my doctrine is my mandate law because because, because because I can explain this because before Russia became in 92 I take when the Soviet Union
Alex Ferrari 20:41
Came Russia, sure.
Subhash Jain 20:43
Yeah, before that, everybody I have more or less income disparity was very small. So, we can control income disparity by just making long this is manmade law. And you can want that everybody should have seen income, you can do that this there are a lot of Scandinavian countries where income disparity starts very large and there are capitalistic countries. So depending upon what kind of man made laws you follow, you can govern the income disparity on what kind of income you will have. So income is not governed by by karma.
Alex Ferrari 21:21
So in other words, if I did really good in one life, I'd become a billionaire and a second life that's not the way that works. Yeah, right. But if I miss use the money that I have here, by hurting people or taking advantage of people, that becomes a karmic debt, yeah.
Subhash Jain 21:37
That's what basically we have to first of all, I think, we have to define this word action action in groupings. Most things action talked about the physical action, of course, we I do action with my body with my speech and with my mind. So I do federal action with this body speech and mind which we call my body body speech action, but this is only physical action, but then it is psychic action. Usually, when I do an action, there is some intention there's a driving force behind some desire some attachment why I'm doing these things for that psychic action is the most important thing for this action is to component with this physical component, and then the psyche component and which in my book, use the word Momo mo ha, and Oh Ha ha, and which is basically includes all your intention desire for that, for manga is very important for if you do any action with no have, you will have definitely consequences. So, I dried consequences to pack one consequences, which are does not change the time and place and there are some consequences, which changed with time and place. So, for example, when I came to this country, I used to teach at India and I used to get youth used to teach the same subject there, I used to get some salary there, and that to us in 67 Shot teaching the same thing here by my salary was very different. So, I was doing the same job, same thing, but sometimes I actually. So, so, this this kind of consequences vary with time and place of atomic time I lived on my salary in peace, I was still teaching the same thing by myself he was different. So my salary was changing the time off. So not only with time and pace for them lot of consequences, we change with time and pace. So both are not universal consequences. They both are consequences, which change with time and place, and they are not the one by cut one doctrine because karma doctrine is a universal doctrine. Only universal consequences are governed by karma doctrine.
Alex Ferrari 24:11
So if I so if I actively have an intention to hurt you, you Yeah, that is that's, that's governed by karma doctrine.
Subhash Jain 24:19
And the main problem is that those consequences are not visible. These blumotion consequences. You store that information somewhere that you did, so, yeah,
Alex Ferrari 24:33
Okay, so So then, let me get to this. Let's say I have some karma I have to deal with and you're not gonna see it. Maybe as you become older or maybe become a little bit more aware of stuff, you're like, Okay, that's something I did before. I got that. But But the universe will find a place and time for you to pay that debt off in this life. Whether that be if you hurt somebody intentionally in another life in this life, someone even might be the same person in a different in a different body maybe or just or a different person will make you feel the same way you made someone else feel or those consequences. Is that accurate?
Subhash Jain 25:15
No, no, I think you're using the consequences of stone, they will when they will be a fruit in future time, then they will produce the fruit. And then of course, if you did that action, then you will definitely have some bad consequences. But
Alex Ferrari 25:33
It doesn't have to be the same consequence. mean in other words, no, no, no, no, it could be something else.
Subhash Jain 25:39
No, no, no, it's something that is but it will be definitely bag don't exactly that you you hit somebody, you said somebody you will get slammed, no ypu will feel pain, but it can be different kinds of pain
Alex Ferrari 25:54
So the the money of karma is pain and pleasure, I guess or pain and happiness or things along those lines.
Subhash Jain 26:04
You can say yeah,
Alex Ferrari 26:06
That would be the that would be the monetary system, if you will of karma.
Subhash Jain 26:10
Yeah, definitely. But then does come up and talk to other thing also, for example, in for example, we know that certain people are more intelligent than the other,
Alex Ferrari 26:21
Coming into our life.
Subhash Jain 26:23
Right. And we think this auto governed by karma, there is one type of karma, which control the intelligence,
Alex Ferrari 26:30
intelligence, physical attributes, artistic, artistic talents, where you're, where you're born, who you're born to, all these, all these things are dealt with. So let me ask you a question. I've talked to multiple spiritual masters on the show near death experiencers, my understanding of the way karma is, is dealt with on the other side, and again, this is just from what I've spoken to, is that the so it is a karmic debt. But the soul's choice is to come back and deal with that debt. It is not like a doctrine, that means you have to go back to Earth to pay this debt off. It's more like, if you are going to continue down this, this path, you will have to repay this debt. And from what I understand it is the soul's choice to go, Oh, I really need to go back down there because I slapped so harsh in the phase and I, I feel really bad at what I did to him. And if I'm if I'm just gonna keep growing, spiritually evolving, I need to go back. And it's almost like, I'm just gonna go back because I got to do the work, as opposed to someone's up there with a judgment, you know, a gavel and a judge that says, No, you must go back.
Subhash Jain 27:43
Yeah, you get, as I said in the beginning, because we don't believe in a supreme power, there is no God in our so this karma talking is self regulating doctrine. Correct. So this karmic body that we have this karmic body, everything is self leveling. So, yeah, so that that's the main difference in on the tool faith, which is Hinduism, and Sikhism, where they believe this Deputy Administrator, God take care of all those things, then things become easy, because then you can leave everything to the God and He will take care of him about the reward and punishment. But if we don't believe in God, then you will have to devise a system in which you'd have to explain how the system works, how your karmic body will take care.
Alex Ferrari 28:37
So my question to you is who developed the system?
Subhash Jain 28:40
What is a self regulatory system? This system was there all the time. As long as it was not beginning at the end of this university. So we weren't there all the time. And everything was there all the time. So there was no beginning
Alex Ferrari 28:56
HArd to understand. It's hard to understand those concepts here. It's just it's it's difficult concepts.
Subhash Jain 29:03
Basic assumption, the very first presumption in Jainism there is no beginning no end, no creator, that this will work on there. And it will remain there.
Alex Ferrari 29:16
Exactly. There's it okay. So I understand where you're coming from. So all right. So let's say that you have karmic debt on your body, right? Is there anything you can do consciously to repair it? Meaning doing good deeds, may helping other people do you know can Is there something physically you can do without it being done to you if you will?
Subhash Jain 29:37
Yeah, yeah, you can. Extend this word more, more, more potential. And I, basically your intention, desires, and what we call basically attachment and aversion. Some people like you get attached, something you hate, you just start hating. According to miles aid, one should avoid attachment and aversion. You want to be neutral, what should anything happens, you should be just, just just watch, it should not affect you, for this moment should not be there, as long as you have attachment and aversion. You keep collecting karmic debt, and your as you're gonna keep decreasing your karmic debt start decreasing. So the idea is basically you start with second attachment and aversion. And somehow you start controlling your attachment and aversion with time and say, Okay, I, I love that thing too much, or I hate that so much. Don't love, don't hate so much, and keep reducing your attachment and aversion. And eventually you will become completely what we call equanimity you have everything you hate anybody and you don't have anybody, you just neutral, completely, nothing affects you. And so that becomes zero. And once you have more have become zero, then your karmic debt will become zero. So the mantra is, basically try to reduce your law. And the best way is control your desires. And the other best way I can explain, try to live with less, you see, the more if you can really do have no desire, you can just, if you can sit down and close your eyes and think that you have no desire, then you have nothing to worry about doing the end entirely completely peace, you have this problem, because you design something. And if you don't get that meet your desire, you have problem. If you don't have any desire, then there is no problem. So that desire is the main problem and desire to really create this attachment and aversion. So the mantra is, basically try to live with less. And as you keep producing requirements. And I think right now, the way our universe is behaving, and our climate, all this climate problem we have and all these things will go away, if everybody start consuming less rather than one thing more, you can just see how the technology change. So the basic mantra is, try to live with less, if you just do that, and then we'll go the right direction. And eventually, you keep reducing your requirement. And then eventually a day will come when you don't need anything in your own cabinet no more and no can't make that and do become your phone become without karmic debt. And that. So the call to food, right now my soul is improved, because it carries lot of this karmic debt. And the idea is that we want to get get it up. So you see the kind of happiness I'm talking about what we call transient happiness, we get happiness, and that lasts for the shortest period. You can take off, don't design, design and all that kind of happiness we have.
Alex Ferrari 33:27
There's, there's, I can tell you from experience, that you know, when you want to buy and consume and buy and consume and you're like, I want to buy a new TV or I want to buy a new car, I want to buy this or that you happy for for a little bit and then it goes away. No, but being debt free. With no credit card debt. Yeah, is a feeling of happiness that you can't comprehend. Unless you unless you feel that there's a sense of freedom with that. Because for most of my life, I was always dealing with debt and understanding how money worked. And I was an idiot, I just didn't know until I got educated. And I had a good woman in my life to help me. That was able to get that but that freedom is so powerful, and it's something that I think we should all thrive to be is to find that freedom within ourselves. So if you can be happy with yourself without anything external around you, then you're always happy.
Subhash Jain 34:28
Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm trying to do.
Alex Ferrari 34:31
But if but if this thing that I'm holding is the source of my happiness, then if this thing goes away, you have a problem.
Subhash Jain 34:40
Right! You see, I also have the same thing, but I just use this only probably happened for me. And I know people use 24 hours per day. So
Alex Ferrari 34:56
Talking about the phone by the way you thought you're talking about the phone,
Subhash Jain 34:58
I don't care I still use it. I have, but I know that I can. My cell phone is not controlling, I'm controlling my cell phone. The difference is more people. Cell phone is controlling them. And you have to learn that we have to control cell phone rather than telephone. told me how long should I take? Okay, usually I'm not against using cell phone. But don't keep everything to tell. Share of the cell phone. Yeah, that yeah,
Alex Ferrari 35:34
It's an absolute tool as opposed to letting it control you. You need to control it. Without without question. So you were saying earlier that if you release all your karma, you become a pure soul? Yeah. Is that what Buddha? Jesus? Yeah, that's what they became.
Subhash Jain 35:51
Yeah, that's what we need. They call it Yeah, you see, once you vote, and then you're not come back as in reincarnation, not reborn,
Alex Ferrari 36:03
Subhash Jain 36:04
No deed. So that's what you want to do if you don't want to come back into the cycle of happiness or misery. Because once you are in this world, it may remind me there all the time, there is no way you will be happy. Sometimes, most of the time you will be unhappy. So that's the main problem. So if you aren't happy all the time, infinite happiness, then definitely you want to become what we call pure food, pure food, has no problem at all. And the idea is basically to get rid of this karma and convert my impure soul to become a pure soul.
Alex Ferrari 36:41
And then And then because karma and Nirvana our karma, and enlightenment, are though exclusively separate, or do they coincide at the same time, meaning that if you lose all your karma, you can, you will become enlightened, exact. So both of those things come together. You can't come in late you cannot become enlightened and still have karmic debt. According to according to your Yeah, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So then the Buddha's and the Jesus is the quote, unquote, ascended masters essentially, right. As you see behind me, I have Yogananda has Baba Ji, all of these all of these ascended masters that I have around me so okay, because that's, that's something that people to understand. So there's something that you've mentioned in your book called the karmic field is that what is the karmic field?
Subhash Jain 37:39
Karmic field basically, when you are doing new action, you have consequences or old actions, which are stored in our karmic body, for your new action can affect your past consequences to your karmic field.
Alex Ferrari 38:03
Okay, explain that. Again,
Subhash Jain 38:04
It's important, I think, by doing support, you have done a lot of bad actions in the past, and you have very bad consequences in your karmic body. But you need to worry about, you can really convert those bad actions, what consequences into good consequences by doing good deeds in the future. Because these karmic fields interactive feed, the new action affect the past or sequences, consequences of past action. Combined with action in the future, you can really convert the bad actions, past action, that consequence or past action to this karmic field I'm talking about. So people think, Oh, you already has done so many bad things. And there is no hope, which is not correct. You can definitely once you realize that, Oh, you do want to go a different path. You can, you can start working right now. You can change your path and start doing good deeds, and you start reducing your what I call again, this more, started losing attachment and aversion. So you're more people start decreasing, and you start doing new actions with less bow, then you will find your past consequences will also change.
Alex Ferrari 39:29
Well, let me ask you this. There's a lot of people because a lot of people, especially in the Western religions, you know, say that being rich or being wealthy is bad. And obviously it's hurtful and harmful, and you screwed people over and all this kind of stuff. But there are a lot of people who are extremely wealthy who do an amazing amount of things for the world that do good and to as good intentions with their with their money and or either inherited their money and start to give them away. The one the one person that comes to mind is the ex wife of Jeff Bezos. Ah, the Amazon founder who I think she, she has 40 billion. And she's giving it and she's giving it away. And she's giving it giving away and helping people. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because a lot of people think that in order to be perfect, you need to be without clothes, in the street in a cave somewhere that have no no physical things in the world at all to do this kind of work. Is that fair?
Subhash Jain 40:28
No, no, no, you suck on either side. In the beginning, money has nothing to do with Karma doctrine. Okay. These consequences, which I call visible consequences, are not governed by karma doctrine that has nothing to do whether you're doing a good good or bad deed. These consequences, nothing to do. Even a bad person can earn money.
Alex Ferrari 40:52
Sure. Oh, no, no, no, I understand that.
Subhash Jain 40:56
But yeah, even a person doesn't have money, he can do good deeds.
Alex Ferrari 41:03
But it also but my point is a person who has a lot of money can do good deeds as well.
Subhash Jain 41:07
But don't know doesn't help anybody. Yeah. Yeah. But helping anybody he can do definitely would need Yeah, so
Alex Ferrari 41:16
Right. And then someone who has the resources of, let's say, x, Mrs. Jeff Bezos, to do an immense amount of good deeds with that with that money, you know, and really do good for the world. So, because there is a demonization of money and wealth in the world, and they're like, Oh, well, you can't have good karma, or you can't have you can't be spiritually enlightened. If you have too much money, or that's that's not the case. From my understanding.
Subhash Jain 41:42
No, yeah. If you have definitely a lot of you don't want to give me a moment you have attachment. Trauma you have you don't want to give to anybody, you have a problem. Yeah. But yeah, don't get attached to money, get start giving up, then you don't have attachment. And that's less more and less, more is better. Definitely don't want not giving their money. They just want don't want to support anybody, you have no more.
Alex Ferrari 42:11
So the key is attachment. So I can have a billion dollars or I can have $1. Right? And the person was $1 could be more attached to that dial than the person who has the billion dollar.
Subhash Jain 42:22
Alex Ferrari 42:24
Yeah. Okay, perfect. Now I was introduced recently to a concept of Karma called generational karma. That is passed along through through from what I understand through DNA through the genetic code. I don't know what it is, but where it's generational. So like if my grandfather or great grandfather, great, great grandfather, let's say I had an ancestor who fell off of a Mayan was sacrificed on a Mayan pyramid and fell to their death beheaded. i In this in this life would be afraid of heights, because I'm still dealing with what that is. It's a crude example. Yeah. What is your feeling on generational karma?
Subhash Jain 43:05
No, you see I think yeah, I do. I really can't say but I know Hindus get that they have definitely kind of generational karma. And they have what they call community karma, or common karma. But in Japanese, we don't have the disease. Karma is very individualistic. Mine, my karma. Nobody can really have. My karma cannot affect anybody. I have to be on my own karma. Karma with each other. No, completely in general. There's no shading of karma with anybody.
Alex Ferrari 43:46
Got it! Okay. And then how do you? You know, how do you have any tips on mastering karma? How can we really deal with karma in our day to day lives?
Subhash Jain 43:56
I think the best mantra I can see is again, go back to the world. Try to live with less. And right now, you can see, can you see my dress now? I have a kind of, I don't know, maroon kind of dress. And for the last three, four months, I just made this I went I went to India and I caught up on half a dozen these days. And for the last three, four months, I'm just reading this desk. So I have nothing. Only come on in I just read the same death out of those six pieces and can bleed four months back. I used to have so many dresses and do I need to pick up that dress this this this this? Should I get this or should I get that? For the last four. I have nothing to worry about what I need to hear tomorrow. I know I'm just going to hear this. So they A simple example, I have reduced my requirement of dress to one dress. And you can see just one example, just knowing that all I need to cover my bodied mind, I just need to comment on body text, the only purpose of this dress. And so I can really, I had this always my closet full of dresses. Now I don't need that.
Alex Ferrari 45:26
Well, it sounds like it's very similar to the concept of minimalism, which is a movement.
Subhash Jain 45:33
That what medium, that's what I'm trying to say. And then you can save this world. Right away. I think if you want to have this climate control, global warming, you can Ribbit control right away if everybody starts going
Alex Ferrari 45:53
The thing is interesting, though, is that the reason that we owe it back in the earlier days in the 1800s, there was very few people who had a lot, because everybody was just really trying to figure out how to survive and all this kind of stuff. And yes, there were people who owned a lot, but the majority of people did it. But now because of the industrial revolution, we the whole economy, the whole engine that runs the world is about creating products and buying products. So then people started to accumulate more and more and more and more, we're now getting to that tipping point, environmentally, spiritually, that people are like, now that I can get anything I want. I need to start pulling back and start pulling back. Because you start to realize, like you said, if you didn't have to look, if you didn't have to think about what to wear. It didn't have to keep track of 40 or 60 or 80 pieces, I see these closets of these people online or on shows and the like walk in giant walk in closets with more clothes, and they'll everywhere in their lifetime. And I'm like, What's the purpose of that? Like, how many more rooms do you need in your house? At a certain point, it's, you know, as long as you got your basics covered, a roof over your head, a place the place to shower, place to eat, preparing your meals, a card that doesn't have to be fancy, or just something that gets you from point A to point B, that it's realized, after you get to a certain point. What else? Why do you need the next Fancier car? Why do you need the biggest biggest house you can find? Why do you need 1000 And then not only a lot of clothes, and then super expensive clothes. That's all that it becomes at that point of sale ego. It's all about showing.
Subhash Jain 47:43
And it came like this. I just realized this only four months ago that I'm saying if I can, I was able to do that. And I know now and did that's why I want to repeat this mantra again, try to live with less. I moved from a big house to very simple one bedroom apartment. Now I have very frugal I had just only six pieces of this. I have very little things in my house. And I can see definitely see I am much more happy than I was before.
Alex Ferrari 48:18
Oh, I can tell you something. Every time you move from one place to another you realize how much crap? Yeah. It's insane. Because you just like so now it's like, I'm always looking at like, What can I get rid of? Too much stuff here. Yes, I give away a lot of stuff I give away and I only keep things that are meaningful for me or things that are part of my work and what I'm doing. But even things that are meant meaningful to me things I can walk away from tomorrow. That's and that's the thing you have to be able to do. Like if there's things that I love that I've been with me for years. But I at a certain point, you just have to get you know, I can't I used to. I used to collect comic books when I was a kid, you know, spider man, that man I had 10 or 12 long boxes, which have been 1000s of books. I carry those books across the country. Okay to California. And I changed from three different four different houses for 13 years carrying these boxes and putting them into closets. Wait, wait for it. I didn't look at them more than five times in those 13 years. And right before the pandemic I said you know what, I think it might be time to let this go. And I sold them I sold them and I put the money into something else and I'm like, I'm not these aren't going to be worth billions of dollars later. These are not you know, I've had them for since I was a kid if they're not going to ask this point, none of these are going to pop into a millionaire situation. No, unless I'm the last comic collection on the planet. I let go. And that was one of the most meaningful things I had in my life. But being able to release that, and release those old things that aren't like you perfect example with what you're saying, you had this collection of clothes that served you up to to a point, but then you said no, this isn't serving me anymore. This is the new path. And you're happier, right?
Subhash Jain 50:28
Yes. My Content committee now know that this will be the only in distress. So they normally so did somebody really expect anything else from me, they know that this was suddenly being discussed in future in future. So they told me and I'm happy down episode, no problem.
Alex Ferrari 50:55
It has been a pleasure talking to you. I want to ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. What is your definition of living a good life?
Subhash Jain 51:04
Again, I think I cannot think of anything better if you can just again, cutting down your requirements. I think I cannot find any better word living with less is is my best advice would be
Alex Ferrari 51:21
What is your definition of God?
Subhash Jain 51:26
I will say it is God. God cannot. Because we don't really clearly God cannot do anything with me for me. But yeah, I want to become God. Because God has perfect happiness. Perfect
Alex Ferrari 51:41
Fair enough you want to become the goddess, yeah. And what is the ultimate purpose of life?
Subhash Jain 51:46
To become God
Alex Ferrari 51:48
To to get rid of this karmic debt and get that Enlightenment, if you will, enlightenment nirvana
Subhash Jain 51:57
Yeah, that's a better word.
Alex Ferrari 51:59
Yeah. And where can people find out more about you your book, the path to inner peace, and the work that you're doing?
Subhash Jain 52:06
They can go go to my, I think I don't have any website. That's the main problem. But they can go to amazon.com to buy that book, or mantra.com. Yeah, they can find my book there.
Alex Ferrari 52:22
And as a part of any parting message that you would like to leave with the audience?
Subhash Jain 52:26
Just to save this universe. Try to live with less.
Alex Ferrari 52:35
My friend. It has been a pleasure talking to you. And it's been enlightening, to say the least, and I really appreciate what you're doing and doing to help the world. So I appreciate you and thank you again for coming on the show.
Subhash Jain 52:45
Thank you so much for having me.
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