My NDE Showed Me the DARK & the LIGHT Side of My Soul with M.K. McDaniel

In the heart of today’s insightful episode, we welcome M.K. McDaniel, affectionately known as Kathy McDaniel, whose near-death experience (NDE) offers a profound exploration into the realms of life, death, and spiritual awakening. Kathy’s journey, marked by extraordinary trials and transformative realizations, illuminates the depths of human resilience and the boundless nature of the soul.

Kathy begins by sharing her life before the NDE, painting a picture of a typical American family deeply rooted in the Catholic faith. Raised by a father whose harrowing World War II experience transformed him from an atheist to a devout Catholic, Kathy’s upbringing was steeped in religious tradition. This solid foundation, however, would be profoundly shaken by her near-death experience in her 50s, leading her to question and ultimately expand her spiritual beliefs.

The turning point in Kathy’s life came when she contracted a severe flu that turned into pneumonia, leading to acute respiratory distress syndrome. She describes the moment when her lifeforce seemed to ebb away, and she fell into unconsciousness, only to awaken in a realm of darkness and confusion. Her vivid account of this experience, which she later identified as the “void,” is a harrowing journey through various hellish scenarios that tested her spirit to its limits.

Kathy recounts, “I woke up in the dark, a void, and it was silent. As it got lighter, I started hearing moaning and shrieking. It was warm and smelled awful. Then a voice asked, ‘Do you know where you are?’ I thought, ‘Hell.’” This realization was a shock to her system, as she had always believed in the purgatorial cleansing taught by her faith. Her descriptions of encountering demonic figures, enduring torturous tasks, and facing her deepest fears reveal the raw intensity of her NDE.


  1. Self-Created Realities: Kathy’s experiences in hellish scenarios underscore the power of belief and expectation in shaping our spiritual realities. Her Catholic upbringing led her to create a purgatorial hell based on her ingrained beliefs, illustrating how our minds can manifest our deepest fears.
  2. The Importance of Love and Kindness: One of the core messages Kathy brings back from her experience is the universal call to be loving, kind, merciful, forgiving, encouraging, grateful, non-judgmental, and useful. These virtues transcend religious boundaries and are essential for spiritual growth and fulfillment.
  3. Overcoming Trauma through Spiritual Awareness: Kathy’s journey through trauma and her subsequent spiritual awakening highlight the potential for profound personal transformation. By facing and integrating her fears, she discovered a path to inner peace and a deeper understanding of her life’s purpose.

At the climax of her ordeal, Kathy found herself in a shack, enduring the harshest conditions yet. In a moment of desperate hope, she began to sing “Away in a Manger,” a Christmas carol, which gradually drew others into song and ultimately led to a dramatic shift in her experience. The demon tormenting her vanished, and she was enveloped in an incredible light and love. This transition marked the end of her hellish journey and the beginning of a profound healing process.

Upon returning to her body, Kathy faced a long and arduous recovery. The physical challenges were immense, but the emotional and psychological integration of her NDE proved equally demanding. Her marriage ended, and she struggled to find a sense of normalcy. Yet, she found solace and understanding within the International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS), where she finally felt heard and validated.

Kathy’s book, “Misfit in Hell to Heaven Expat,” chronicles her experiences and the lessons she learned along the way. Through writing and speaking about her NDE, she aims to help others navigate their own spiritual journeys and find peace amidst life’s trials.

In conclusion, Kathy McDaniel’s story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the transformative power of love and kindness. Her journey from darkness to light offers hope and inspiration to those seeking to understand the deeper meanings of their own experiences.

Please enjoy my conversation with M.K. McDaniel.

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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 183

M.K. McDaniel 0:01
The bottom line is we are to be loving, kind, merciful, forgiving, encouraging, grateful, non-judgmental and useful. You can do that in any religion or no religion.

Alex Ferrari 0:29
I like to welcome to the show M.K McDaniel, better known as Kathy McDaniel. How're you doing Kathy?

M.K. McDaniel 0:35
I'm doing great, Alex, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:37
I'm doing very good. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, I'm really excited to hear your your story your near death experience, because it's every you know, we had a lot of, we've heard of a lot of near death experiences, and many of them are positive. You know, Jesus is a busy guy. He's everywhere. All the time. He's always working. But you wrote a book called The mis misfit in hell to heaven expat. And it is. It is, like I was saying earlier, it is the book about this experience, to say the least. So my first question to you is, what was your life like prior to you having a near death experience?

M.K. McDaniel 1:20
I would say the typical American family, except that my dad was in the military. And we traveled a lot. So we went from east coast, midwest to West Coast while as a child, so that was a lot of upheaval, as far as learning to go into a school and find new friends and all that stuff. But we were devout Catholics. My dad, as the, as the book indicates, had a rather harrowing experience in World War Two and and landed upside down on the Philippine beach in the middle of World War Two and ask God if he was out there to save him because he'd been an atheist. And God saved him. So we all became Catholic. So I, I did the Catholic schooling, you know, from first grade on through college, and totally believed everything I was told about my religion, and I love my religion. So my life got a little quirky as I got older. I did get married rather early. And there's some story behind all that, too. So it wasn't until I was in my 50s. That what happened that was kind of out of the ordinary.

Alex Ferrari 2:36
So you were just, you'd live in your, you know, a, a just run of the mill, you know, American Midwest kind of life raised Catholic. I was also raised Catholic, I still feel guilty about it. I don't know about you.

M.K. McDaniel 2:51
Recovering Catholic, like the rest of us.

Alex Ferrari 2:54
Exactly. But so I completely understand everything where you're coming from from first grade on pretty much. I went through that through that same process. So tell me about what happened. What happened with the near death experience.

M.K. McDaniel 3:10
I had been caring for my best friend who was going through treatment for leukemia. And we thought it was going to be a two or three month ordeal, but it turned into almost eight months. And by the time he died, I was pretty much a physical emotional wreck. And there was a bad flu going around. I picked it up. It became pneumonia. And then I got super sick and had to have a friend take me to a doc in the box. And before we got there, I got out of the car and just I felt my lifeforce just kind of leaking out. It was the weirdest thing. And I just fell to the ground. He carried me and they they got me going again. I wake up in a hospital with an oxygen tent and my family around and they're from California. I was living in Washington at the time. And Colorado and I thought, what's going on? You know, they said, Wow, you're super sick. You've got something called ARDS, acute respiratory distress syndrome. The doctor said, You got about a 38% chance of making it because this is kind of new to us. This was 23 years ago, I was kind of a guinea pig for the project. We're not sure what to do, but we're going to put you into a drug induced coma. We're going to intubate your nice scarred Pruvit and then we're gonna do our best you know, but we're going to give you something called Wide amnesia. So you will remember nothing your brain will just shut down as far as remembering anything while you're gone. And hopefully, you know, we'll see. See you soon but I had no options. So my dad gave me a thumbs up and I gave him a thumbs up and waved goodbye to everybody and black

Alex Ferrari 4:58
And then the journey begins,

M.K. McDaniel 5:01
The journey began, yeah, ah, all of a sudden I woke up, I was conscious. And it was totally dark. Later I learned that was the void. But at the time, I thought somebody stuck me in a closet, it was just quiet. And I thought, What is going on, and I didn't know if I was standing or sitting and I thought, I better not move, I might, you know, hurt myself. So I just kind of hung out. And thought this was kind of strange and waiting and waiting and waiting. And then all of a sudden, it started to get a little lighter. I got my attention. And it was kind of like a reddish glow. And I thought, sun's coming up great, you know, maybe I can see what's going on. And as it got lighter, this fog was swirling around, so I really couldn't see anything. And I thought, what's going on? And then I started hearing, moaning and shrieking and started getting kind of warm, and I smelled really bad. You know, just thinking, I don't know what's going on. And all of a sudden, scared me have to get this voice comes out and says, Do you know where you are? Ah, I thought, my mind's racing. And the only thing I could come up with was how, and then that thing, just, whoa, scared that live. And you know what out of me, so I just freaked out and I turned to the left. I mean, you never forget this stuff. It's always very fresh, and ran into the darkness. I didn't care if I hit a wall or fell on a hole or what I had to get away from that thing. And all of a sudden, it was like, light, bright lights came up. And I looked around, and oh my gosh, I'm like in New York City after a bomb. Buildings are falling down, the windows are blown out. There's fires everywhere. There's people screaming. I mean, it was like one now you know. And I thought, well, I'm out here in the middle of this, you know, parking lot, what's remaining, I better go hide because I don't know if there's been a war or what's going on. So I tucked in behind some concrete. And was just, you know, trying to look and see and get some clues and, and I do remember seeing there was like, eventually this ragtag bunch of people kind of started toward me, and I thought, like a homeless camp, people were coming at me. And I thought, oh, no, you know, and I just said, Well, maybe we can get together you guys, you know, you know, I'll get some fire for them, you know, firewood, and you find some water. And as one guy just said, we are all alone here. Where's here? And I thought, No, this is just too scary. And that and I thought, well, I better find another place. So I started running. There was this metallic scattering sound like, like aliens, you know? expletive here. So I tried to get up this concrete kind of wall thing, but I fell. And I was going backwards on my back and I thought this is gonna hurt. And then it all went black again. And the lights would come up. And Alex has happened over and over and over. And each time got at the scenario got worse. And a lot of times I was challenged. By the time I woke up, or the lights came up, and here's this huge demon Stan in there. And I thought, I know this is a demon I had looks like a Bigfoot with a bad attitude. But I just know that's what it is holding a big stick. And he was very far away. And I looked up, and I just stared and I thought, oh, no, what? And he says you want to get out of here? Yeah. And he says, I can make that happen. And I said, I thought that was strange. He was speaking English, you know? And I said, okay, yeah, sure. What do you got? And, and he says, well, I need you to do one thing for me. So sure, I'll take a look. He didn't seem to be going to hurt me. You know, I just, it's so weird to be in a place like that you adapt. Alright. So the lights come up behind him and as far as you can see is this huge BlackBerry Daniels with it really high canes are all twisted up in the big old thorns on Washington and a lot of places I've lived, they grow wherever, you know, nature abhors a vacuum. So anytime there's an empty space Blackberry has come up. And I know how hard it is to cut them in. You usually need really thick gloves and cutters and all that stuff. So I looked at that and I went, you know, and he says just cut those down for me. Save me the job. I'll get you out here. And then he hands me these kindergarten scissors, you know that the cut paper with and then he starts laughing. I thought oh, you creep. I said, All right, you're not going to, you know, I'm up to this, you know you're just being a creep, but I'm if it's a chance to get out of here, I'm going to do it. So I scratch down in there, I'm going all cut up, and I'm gnawing on one of these damn canes, and finally get one cut, and I put it behind me, I turned back around to grab another one and the thing grew back. Now this demon person just thinks that's hilarious. You know, he's really laughing. And, you know, I'm a fighter. I'm a survivor. And I thought, I'm just going to show him I'm going to keep doing this, if I got no place else to go, you know. So I start cutting, but then the lights went out. And then the lights came up, and I was in another place. So you've read the book, there's a lot of scenarios.

Alex Ferrari 10:59
So alright, so. So many questions. Okay, so the light went, the light went went down, went up, how much? How much longer did you deal in this in this reality?

M.K. McDaniel 11:12
There's no time over there. So you really don't have a watch. Yeah, there's no clocks, there's sun doesn't come up and down. You don't know how long you're there. When I got home and back, home is not, not here. I when I got back to my body, I was in pretty terrible shape. I couldn't move or anything. So I kind of recreated what went on to try and figure out a timeline. And the closest I could come up with, with all the time that I was on this road, also the was his road to nowhere that I was on a lot walking, walking, walking, walking, walking, I think two years. That's what it felt like, with all that that went on.

Alex Ferrari 11:52
So so. So you kept going through multiple different scenarios, again, and again. And again. Was there any light at the end of this tunnel? Was there anything positive? Did you ever do?

M.K. McDaniel 12:07
Yes, at the very end after it was gonna get so much worse. I mean, like I say they kept getting worse and worse.

Alex Ferrari 12:14
So can you can you give me like the last couple, so we could see where we went from, from the demon with the BlackBerry to to the last,

M.K. McDaniel 12:22
Okay, we went to the road, I met two living people, which was very rare. In fact, there's a lady that's going to start doing a study on the very few people that have seen alive people, and how, because I had to give them both messages. But the one there was a terrible one in an abortion clinic there was coming off the road toward the end, of course, I didn't think there was ever going to add, I noticed up ahead of me, it looked to be people on this road, and they were kind of wandering back and forth. And they didn't look human because they were lurching and muttering and you know, think zombies. And I thought this is really dangerous. I don't I've got it, I this road is the only road there is. And I've got to get through. So I thought, well, if I just kind of adapt, they're there, their stance and mutter and keep my eyes down, I can get through the group onto the other side of the road. So I got about halfway in, and all of a sudden, they all froze. And I thought oh, been made, you know. And so the ladies, the ones with thick rags on their heads, and they moved to the outside, the male portion of this mob moved to all around me. And then one pushed me and another one knocked me down. And then there was a very unpleasant interchange. Things you know, you can imagine what a mob would do to a single lady in the dark over there. So this was a horrible experience and then just be the last guy up said, we've all got AIDS, and now you're going to get it and you can't die so you're just gonna get worse and worse and worse and you'll look like us and he had skin falling off his face and all that stuff. So demon lady came over and said you're with us. And I got up, left my clothes together and joined a whole bunch of other ladies that were going to trump on out follow this lady I at this point I was getting kind of tired and I thought maybe I'm not going to get out of here but I must still fight. Anyway we went through is the snow started and we got into this deep snow thing we finally got out to this hideous little shack out in the middle of freaking nowhere and the winds blowing and we go in the shack and there's no insulation the snows coming in. We're all cold or sitting on the floor. or, and she says, Now we wait for customers, and perky little thing. And then I said to her, you know, I've been here a long time. And this seems like a particularly dense, dark. So what's going on? And she says, Oh, wow, that's Christmas on Earth, that's always the worst day in hell. And to that point, I really didn't know I was dead. I don't your soul is you and it's alive, whether it's incarnated in a body or not. So that was a little depressing. And, and to think that you know, I thought, No, I'm going to get out of here, I'm not going to sit, sit and just had this happen. So like, you know, on the book, spoiler alert, I started singing A Christmas Carol, just take her off. And she screamed at me to shut up and I just kept going. And it was my favorite Christmas carol Away in the manger. And some of the other ladies started singing too. And now the demon ladies shouting and waving her stick around and all that other stuff. And I got to a certain part in the song and she screamed and leapt at me like the spider and I just shut my eyes. And when the lights came up, it was a whole different story. Just infused with this incredible love and light and warmth and joy and bliss and all that other stuff just wiped from my mind. I was just swimming in love as all I can describe it. It's wonderful.

Alex Ferrari 12:59
And did you who did you see anybody at that point?

M.K. McDaniel 16:49
Yeah, I, it was just light and love and all that. But then it started kind of settling down and I could kind of make out everything was still white. But the floor and I was kind of walls and kind of not a ceiling, but a an archway or something. And I looked off to the right. And there was, weirdly enough, like an architect's table with his huge book, and it was open about halfway. And I thought when I looked at that book, I thought, Whoa, wait a minute, somebody was showing me something in that book. And I said to them, no, no, I want to stay here with you. And I looked up, and there's my fiancee, ex fiance, former fiance that had died the month before. And he's standing there and died of leukemia and all his hair had fallen out. And it was all watchI and blue and everything. And now you look great. Instead of 52 He looks like he's 35 and and he was laughing and he, he his hair was brown is dead a grin and I thought what the heck, you know? And I thought, oh, shoot, he didn't know he's dead. And then he started really laughing. And I thought, wait a minute. If he's dead, you know, brilliant. I figured it out. I'm dead two, and we're in heaven. Doesn't get any better than this. And I was happy to see him. And I said, Why are we standing here? Let's go see the angels on the butterflies and all that good stuff. And he came a little closer. And he says Now Mary Kay, you've got too much left to do, what? They're throwing me out. I said no, no, no. And bye bye. Think I went to a timeout place. I'm so angry. And it was beautiful, you know, nice. Meadow, you know, pretty, you know, the stream and all this stuff. So I had to follow this stream back. And during that time, I met three different ladies who gave me messages and stuff. And

Alex Ferrari 19:01
What were those three ladies and what were the messages?

M.K. McDaniel 19:03
Well, it was interesting. I was dating a fella that was Norwegian. All right. And we had decided to break up once my friend died and but but we hadn't yet and so there was a lady sitting or standing there going down this stream and she had like a quilt or something handmade and I thought that says get any weirder. You know, I she handed me the quilt and I said thanks. And she spoke to me in a language I didn't understand but it was that lilting kind of dealer senior you can hear from the Swedish people or whatever and that's okay. You know, also I took the quilt I'm walking down the street I'm trying not to trip on the rocks and come around and there's like a sandbar with a lady in a rocking chair and she had like, I don't know, like lace 90 or something like that. And she gets out and she hands it and she's You know, happy to see me. And so if I got a, I got a quilt on one shoulder and I got this thing on the other and I thought, okay, so I came down to the bottom and there was one more lady and I thought, okay, and she's speaking, blah, blah, blah, but then all of a sudden it becomes English. And she says, Give this to Ron, you must live together. What? Sure. So I got this piece of paper in my hand. So then I wake up, the lights come up. And there's these people, and they're all screaming, and the lights are too bright. And I can't move. And I thought, now what I'm back in hell Oh, no. And my daughter turns around, says Mom's back. And my mother's screaming yay. And I thought, what's going on? And they come over, and I can't talk, I got that thing, my throat. And oh, she says, Oh, Mom, you've been so sick. We thought we know they told us you were going to die. And but you're not you're, you're here. And we're so happy. And you've been really sick. And there's going to be a lot of, you know, a lot of things you're going to have done. But right now, just don't worry you're safe. Have you have no idea where I've just been? Oh, I was in heaven. And now I'm here. What? With too much left to do, Alex, that really pissed me off. I couldn't even breathe, you know, I couldn't roll over. And I can't go home until I get all this stuff down. So it's not my finest hour. Excuse me.

Alex Ferrari 21:36
What I find fascinating about your story is the manner this matter of fact, manner that you tell it like and there was some demons and then you know, and I and stuff. And then there's a group of zombie things. And like you say it's so as a matter of fact, it's fascinating to see, because most people would be I'm assuming you were terrified during this process, obviously. But the way you tell the story is not. I guess at this point in the game, you've told the story a few times. So it's doesn't have the same, but it does have an impact on you still, because you're still tearing, as you're going through it.

M.K. McDaniel 22:11
Yeah I'm there again, you know, it was it was real. It's like, yeah, it took me 23 years to get almost 24 down to get to this point. I mean, it took me 10 years to write this out. I would just every day I'd sit and write parts of this out. I thought if I could just write this out and get it out of my frickin brain. I could forget it and move on. But it didn't go away no matter what I did. And then I finally through a series of serendipitous events, got to the ions, people. And it was so wonderful. Nobody would talk to me about this. I mean, my parents didn't want to hear this good Catholic girl want to help. But they kept saying, What did you do, Kathy? What did you do? And I was like, ah, wasn't that bad? And then my friends didn't want to hear about it. Oh, you were dreaming. And we weren't any hallucinating and you want to you know, nobody, but it's 10 years, actually was 12. So by the time I got to an ions meeting, and there's this room full of people that go, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Big deal. Yeah. Oh, you had a distressing one. Oh, that's cool. Hey, come on over here. Listen to Kathy. She heard it. Those are really cool. So they talked me into telling my story. And I had not ever told it. Except they did have a guy call me first. And he wanted to verify that I wasn't some sort of a you know, making this whole thing out. Right? Yeah. Well, I came unglued on the phone. I was in the process of getting a divorce. It was Christmas. And this clown calls up and wants to hear about my story. I know is bad day, let me tell you, I have boxes of Kleenex everywhere. So anyway, I told the story. And at the end, when we they were with me, man, they were with me on this journey. And when I we got out at the end, I mean, people were clapping. They were so excited. And I I felt redeemed. You know, I thought, Okay, this happened for a reason. The Euro people who understand is it's gonna get better Kathy, or it's gonna get better. And it did. I had been with him for over 10 years now. I finally got the guts to write the book COVID COVID didn't have anything else to do, and got it published. You know, again, a serendipitous event that I found this lovely medium that was just out of publishing in the industry, starting her own company and needed her first client. That's our one of our ions conferences. She stepped out in front of me and said, You need to write a book. They say you need to write a book and I'm going they thought she was cuckoo, but I didn't know about mediums at the time. But anyway, she she made me write the book. She's the one that kept saying first she told me 10,000 words Then 20 Then 30 And then finally 50,000 words, so it's her fault. Then so long, and then it got published and then you know, you sit there and wait for the phone to ring and nothing happens and I thought well What the heck? But then, you know lifeplan Hirsi Yes, Alice very from New Zealand calls up out of nowhere and says I'd like you to be on my podcast, I had no idea what she was talking about. She, you know, was studying nd ease. And so I started on her show about two and a half years ago. And then I've now done almost 90 podcasts. Yeah, it's coming up on 90. I think this is number 87. I'm not sure. I know, when two and a half years, you know, we write the plan, there's going to be a way for us to fulfill what we agreed to do on this earth. And it's taken me a long time, you know, like 23 years to finally figure out. Why in Assam? Hell, yes. But it was, it's, I don't know if you know, Nancy Evans, Bush. He's, oh, yeah, she's on doll. I love her. But she saved my life. Really. In that regard. I read one of her books where she she had a distressing one. And she said that the people that have these distressing, and e's are not the damned souls, they're the brave ones, they choose to come down and pick up some vital information and bring it back, just like the, you know, the heroes in the epics back in the Greek days. So I had to look at it from that angle. And from what I've learned, and what I share now, is that I know for a fact that God is all loving and all forgiving, and would never condemn anybody. So how did I end up in hell, I believed in it. My whole life I was taught that was purgatory, you know, Mother, Teresa went straight to heaven, but everybody else is gonna go to purgatory. And, and we're going to, it's like hell, and except you get out, and you get your sins burned off, you know, and if for all these things that you've done, and then you're purified, and you go to heaven, so I believe that I expected that. And I went, and I took all the bad experiences from my life, including an earthquake that became the new New York City thing, a gang rape, which was from Arabia, that actually happened to me. And all the other things in the story, I made my own hell. So I'm here to tell people skip the trip. You know, it doesn't exist, unless you want, you know, if you think you deserve it, or, but that's not God's doing. So that's, it's trying to share,

Alex Ferrari 27:29
It's so fascinating, because I've spoken to other people. And as you've seen on my show, before, a lot of experts in this space have interviewed 1000s, of, of near death experiencers. And anytime that because the negative ones are very small percentage of overall, near death experiences, from what I understand is exactly what you said. It's one you believe in it. So it's like if you're, if you're a Buddhist, if you don't believe in how you're probably not going to show up in hell, like you wouldn't even understand what it is. But it is a self made. situation that is part of the evolution of the soul to go through. Either you you've chosen, like, you know what, I got to work this stuff out. I'm over here, let me work it out in a very extreme way. Let me get this out. And then when I'm done, I could break free of it, which is essentially what you did. Correct?

M.K. McDaniel 28:20
Correct. I find it interesting. And I probably get in trouble for this. But I find about 85% of the people that show up in the distressing, are recovering Catholics you know, that's what we were taught this, all the Catholics go to hell as kind of a good post.

Alex Ferrari 28:44
First grade, I was told this in first grade, I went home crying, I'm like, I don't want to go down. What is they terrify, oh, is is brimstone, fire and brimstone. From first grade on can you imagine telling a five year old or six year old that you like if you don't eat your vegetables you're going to hell? Like it's just like what is it's it's a fascinating thing, because I have spoken to other near death experiences outside of the Catholic tradition outside of the Christian tradition. And from my from my studies, and from what I've been able to see, you know, if you're a Bushman, in the middle of, of Africa somewhere, they don't have a tunnel of light, they have a hole in a tree, that they go cool, because that is something that they understand the Aborigines. They go on a path, there is no tunnel. There is a path, they walk a path towards some sort of light, but there's not a tunnel of light, per se. There's different and then if you go back into ancient history, whatever, you know, they're all different. So near death experiences are kind of tailored for the soul. That's why Jesus shows up if you believe in Jesus, or is Jesus as a comforting figure for you In your life, it could be St. Francis, it could be St. Germain. It could be, it could be Buddha, it could be Mohammed, it could be a yogi that you worship, whoever you felt comfortable with, is who's going to, they're trying to make it a comfortable experience for you to kind of transition. But I think what Nancy said to you is correct, these negative and the ears aren't brave, because they're going in and dealing with, it sounds like trauma, because I didn't understand that until you said it, you're like, Oh, the earthquake was very traumatic to me, there was there was a physical sexual assault that I had to deal with. And you read lived all of that in, in extreme versions, I guess have to work it out. And like kind of process it is that makes sense.

M.K. McDaniel 30:48
Um, probably not process I had to do the processing, when I got back was meant to be that was getting my attention that was getting my attention. And again, to take decades to figure it out. Well, it for me, I was so important to run into the ions, people, because every time somebody brings back a little piece of the puzzle, you know, you get a little more illumination, you don't have to do it all yourself, it's really quite a blessing. For podcasters, like yourself to, to bring this to 1000s and 1000s of people because on our own wouldn't happen. I really applaud you for thank you into this field, you

Alex Ferrari 31:37
Look, I do this show, because it's fascinating to me. And I like you know, answering the big questions about life. And as a recovering Catholic as well. You know, I questioned my faith, you know, a question that when I was a kid, I was like, wait a minute, so if I eat meat on Friday, I die. But if I go to hell, but if I kill somebody as well, I go to hell, this seems on proportionate.

M.K. McDaniel 32:00
Specially when they changed the law, and you can eat meat on Friday that it was what happens with people that ate meat before they walk,

Alex Ferrari 32:06
Is there a retroactive situation, if they're gonna get get passed out like I was at work, it didn't make any sense to me and a lot of the dogmas and stuff like that, and a lot of these older religions in not just Catholics at all world, religions have dogmas. But and the other thing I've noticed is, as I continue to study multiple faiths around the world, there is a core, there's a core belief that is the foundation of all, all religions, that there is a higher power, that we are an eternal being inside of a physical body. And there's an in love is in there somewhere. Always, always. So those are core elements, and then everything else gets kind of muddy, they muddy the waters after that.

M.K. McDaniel 32:55
Yeah. And that's the problem with religion. Most people that come back are spiritual, not religious, because the religions are manmade, for the most part with all the rules or regulations and God's God's not like them.

Alex Ferrari 33:10
No, it's like a steal my favorite quote, and I've said it a couple of times was still my favorite quote, Paramahansa Yogananda who's a yogi. He's an Ascended Master at this point. But at the time, he was a very, very high level Yogi said, Jesus Christ was crucified in one day, but his teachings were crucified for 2000 years. Isn't that powerful?

M.K. McDaniel 33:33
Yeah, it gives you chills. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 33:36
Because he was a big fan of me. If you look at Jesus's teachings and his true teaching, you know, do unto others as you want to do unto you, the kingdom of heaven is within you, you, you, you, you could do bit more, the same or more than I can. These concepts don't jive real well with establishment. Well, he was a he was a rebel, literally crucified for his rebel way.

M.K. McDaniel 33:59
Really. I mean, I love the prodigal son, and the Sermon on the Mount. You know, that's about it. The rest of it, I think, is I don't know, I've done a lot of reading about the Bible and where it came from. And I have a lot of trouble with that. But that, you know, I heard somewhere the other the other day, it's something about God doesn't care what religion you are in. He just wants you to love people.

Alex Ferrari 34:31
Exactly, exactly. And finding your, your path to whatever religion gets you to, or whatever belief system gets you to do that. It works and there's good and bad and every belief system, every philosophy, every faith system, there's always good and bad, quote unquote good and bad throughout the process. Now, I wanted to ask you, and you kind of mentioned that a little bit when and this is something Andy years always have to deal with. When you came back. How did you change, how did your beliefs change? How did you as a person change? Again, I know you were telling the story, nobody believed you, but you've like this change as a person as it would. So how? How did the people around you deal with you? And how did you psychologically deal with it?

M.K. McDaniel 35:19
Well, I did go to a therapist, because nobody would listen to me. And I tried to tell, I told her pretty much what happened. And she said, Well, I'm sorry, I've got to put PTSD on your chart. And, you know, she says, I don't know how to help you. So that's, that's much as I got there. So it was just a matter of internalizing in a lot of thinking and kind of withdrawing, and my marriage fell apart. And I just felt so alone and crazy. And that's when finally that I met the ions, people.

Alex Ferrari 36:04
Can you tell everybody again? Where's Yeah, I was gonna say you were 10 years, basically, in the desert alone, trying to figure this out? Do you think that you were put on your evolutionary path, you think you were put it that you had to deal with those 10 years because you could eon ions was around during your time? You just didn't find them? Because you just needed to work all this out yourself, trying to figure this out yourself? Why do you think you went through that?

M.K. McDaniel 36:31
I'll find out when I get home.

Alex Ferrari 36:34
So first question. Now, listen, you guys. I mean, I don't appreciate this 10 years, I don't need this, you know?

M.K. McDaniel 36:42
Yeah, hang on. And that's part of the process, you know, Jesus did is 40 days in the desert or whatever. We're humans. And now that I know that I planned all this, that really changes you a huge amount, because every time something happens now, I say, Hmm, I wonder what I'm supposed to learn from that. I plan this, and it's all gonna work out. Okay. I mean, you know, the end of the story. That's the cool part. You know, there is a heaven, you know, there is a God, you know, you know, it's there, you know, that it takes so much anxiety out of your life, it was almost worth going through the 10 years of it, to now have virtually none.

Alex Ferrari 37:23
No, where did you? Where did you learn that information that you that you create this blueprint of your life? Because I would definitely, definitely not in the Catholic

M.K. McDaniel 37:31
Oh, no, oh, no, no, no, I gave my books to my former priest that was a good friend of mine. And he read through the whole thing. He knew my family. So he didn't read through the whole thing. And the only comment he came up with is, yeah, theory, the Catholic Church does not teach reincarnation after reading the whole book, and if you go back in history, they did teach reincarnation, the whole thing was like, hello, you're not thinking you're just as a Napa guide, don't get me started. Um, I lost the question.

Alex Ferrari 38:05
Where did you learn about the blueprint?

M.K. McDaniel 38:09
Yeah, I went to a meeting. I didn't like it. The first meeting up in Seattle, that was about an hour drive, and it is traffic. And there's all these people and they're all talking, you know, telling these stories. And I thought I don't hear that. Yeah, I'm on the wrong planet. So synchronicity hit me the voice, you know, when you get back, the voice is really loud. It's like your intuition, or your guardian angel, or whatever, that you kind of get a glimpse of before you go through this experience. But when you get back this thing is, so it kept making me go back up there. And that and Eben Alexander was the speaker that day? No, I mean, let's go right to the top. So I heard his story, you know, about being brain lead and, and all this other stuff. And I thought, wow, somebody like him had a story like that, you know, maybe I'm okay. And I that's when I started kind of asking other people God, did you see any demons? Do you have any, you know, things. And finally, they said, You need to read Nancy's book. And that's what then Howard storm I got his book, even Betty Ed and embraced by the light, which was one I the only one I read before I died, because my friend was dying. And I wanted to, you know, kind of, but she had a bad thing. I mean, the demons followed her back. I was in good company, you know, all of a sudden, I didn't feel like low man on the totem pole. You know, it was like, okay, so then I had to figure out what my mission was because I couldn't go home until I got it done. You know? So I have this visual of all these people that I have to affect their lives by what happened. And every time I run into somebody or get a comment back, I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't run into you. I get that all the time. I really needed to hear what you had to say, I just crossed one more person off. And, you know, it's been almost 24 years. And there's, I guess we did a tally. I've got up on the wall, how many podcasts I've been on, and how many views they had and all that. And as of several months ago with 70,000 views, Alright, so here's this, this little girl, a little girl, there's, there's one single woman that had this horrible experience and 70,000 people have seen it, you know, whether one or two people benefit from it, it doesn't matter is the fact that I am putting myself out there, I'm doing my work I'm doing. I'm fulfilling my mission. And then it's up to the universe to make sure it gets to the people it's supposed to. But so now I'm happy doing all of this stuff. I love meeting you. I love watching you know, the podcasts from other people, I've got a in ions, I've got a distressing near death experience sharing group we get together once a month and and invite people in that are have had these experiences or curious about them. And we've got you know, from two to 10 people, it's a nice cozy little group, if you go on to because is go Now, but It's distressing nt e sharing group, you're welcome to come to it. But but I've I feel like, you know, making a difference. My I came down here, I decided to do all of this stuff. I'm doing it and I'm happy. I'm happy. I think that was a blessing, that whole thing was just a blessing.

Alex Ferrari 41:38
It's so wonderful that you look at it that way. Because as as I've gone through my journey, I've started to realize that once you make that switch in your head, it's like, life doesn't happen to you, it happens for you. Once you make that switch, your whole life changes completely like okay, if something negative, quote unquote negative is happening to you. You stop and go, What am I supposed to learn here? That's a very powerful question. You're in charge? Yeah, it's it's really powerful. What do you have to say to people listening, because a lot of I found it interesting that so many people who listen to my channel and listen to the show, don't either don't believe or are stuck in their, in their dogma. And that's fine. They can't break free of it. It's very difficult. I mean, can you imagine after 3040 years of believing something and someone tells you that might not be the way it's the ego, it's very difficult for the ego to let go of these things. It was for me for a while, and many other things as well in my life. What do you have to say to people listening? Who might be Catholic might be Christian might be just might not be believing this this thing? Or have they obviously have a curiosity? Inside there's an obvious something that's missing Ross, they wouldn't be listening to this conversation right now. And somebody's listening to right now. They're like, Oh, my God, they're talking to me. Yes, we're talking to you right now whoever's listening, and is freaking out when I'm saying this. It's but it's what do you say to those people who are like, being a recovering Catholic, in dealing with all the stuff that you've dealt with? What do you have to say to them to kind of help them find their path.

M.K. McDaniel 43:26
Just Just yesterday, I had to zip different situations where that came up. And because I was talking my book and one of these places, and, and people want to get that conversation, you know, I just said, this is my experience, this is what happened to me, and you have your life and your experiences. I was told the bottom line is we are to be loving, kind, merciful, forgiving, encouraging, grateful, non judgmental, and useful. You can do that in any religion, or no religion. That's if you can just remember to be loving and kind. That's why we're here. So it's really pretty simple. And we want to let people out of the box, you know, you're right, you're wrong. No, it's okay. As long as you're loving and kind.

Alex Ferrari 44:24
And you know, what's fascinating is that what you just said can be practiced any religion. No religion, to my understanding, has a problem with loving and kind. Generally against speaking there probably is some outskirts out there but loving and kind, forgiving, being of service. These things are basic concepts, many of them Jesus talked about. And many of all, the grandmasters talked about this. This is not just Jesus, all the Ascended Masters and masters have walked the earth. These are all common truths. That all of us can do that regardless of what religion you will be. Basically, programmed with when you were born because if I was born Jewish, I wouldn't be Jewish. If I was born Muslim I would have been but also but I happen to be born in a family who believed in Catholicism just like you.

M.K. McDaniel 45:11
Yeah, we shouldn't be fighting with one another about religion.

Alex Ferrari 45:16
Oh, God, please. Yes. Enough is enough blood has been spilled enough feelings have been hurt over something like that. You know, I think it was Wayne Dyer said when you have the option to be kind or right. Choose kind.

M.K. McDaniel 45:31
Yeah, it's that easy. It just takes your blood pressure down. Every situation how can I can I be loving or kind in this situation? And what kind it in everything? I mean, even in the grocery store, you know, just just to sit with past somebody. Hi, you know how well how's it doing? Or can I help you get that? It makes you feel good.

Alex Ferrari 45:55
Oh, it's addictive. I mean, the other day, we were at a Starbucks and we paid for the person behind us. We're just like, I told my daughter's I'm like, we're gonna we're gonna pay us it's five bucks. I go, how much is the order? It's five bucks. I got it. If you said something, tell him to pay for. And that happened once at a Starbucks and it ran for like 90 cars. Like they just kept everybody kept paying. It was so beautiful. It was such a beautiful. One person started it and it became this thing. And it just kept going and going and go. Those little bits of you have no idea what that means in someone's life. Letting someone in in front of you at the supermarket or in traffic door being kindly picking something up off the floor windfalls these minor little things.

M.K. McDaniel 46:42
It's a ripple effect. You know,

Alex Ferrari 46:43
It really truly is. You know, Kathy, after you've been through everything you've been through, what is the biggest takeaways that you had from this experience?

M.K. McDaniel 46:56

Alex Ferrari 46:59
Just just just straight up joy.

M.K. McDaniel 47:01
Yes, knowing that I'm making a difference with my life, you know, and where I'm going so homesick. I'm 76. My mom is 95 My dad was 97 when he passed, I probably still got another 20 years. Which is cool.

Alex Ferrari 47:21
You say that you say that. Like oh, my god, another sentence. Got another 20 years down here.

M.K. McDaniel 47:29
Well, the only thing that slows me down on that as they may want me to reincarnate, and I gotta go No. Stay around for a while. I've heard from some people say that. We well. Yeah. incarnating in Earth is the toughest gig you can do that there were the densest energy. This is the toughest gig you're gonna run into. And symbolically you get like an E for Earth. I went to Earth and people go, Oh, man, you went to Earth. Tell me about it. So we're all very brave. We're very, very brave souls down here. And next time, I think we have to do something a little less stressful.

Alex Ferrari 48:08
If you're coming, if you're coming back, it's a vacation lifetime. As I've heard, I've heard

M.K. McDaniel 48:11
Vacation life. Yeah, that would be nice. As people that just have one job they get married and live happily is the same house and they get the same dog and yeah, but I see I am. I get bored easy. So I don't think that would that would be good for me.

Alex Ferrari 48:25
Now you get bored now who knows? And the other life you'll get. I know I might be you might be completely

M.K. McDaniel 48:34
Raise, raise, raise pansies and read books and yeah, or something? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 48:44
Now, Kathy, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all our guests. What is your definition of living a good life?

M.K. McDaniel 48:52
Being loving and kind.

Alex Ferrari 48:54
What is your definition of God?

M.K. McDaniel 48:57
Love, love and energy, God's the energy in everything. And it's all love

Alex Ferrari 49:06
And the ultimate purpose of life?

M.K. McDaniel 49:08
To fulfill your purpose and go home.

Alex Ferrari 49:11
Do your work, learn your lessons and get and get the hell out of here.

M.K. McDaniel 49:21
And, you know, God must have a great sense of humor, because that's that's That was the worst thing about his sense of humor. You know, it just get you through it Lighten up, I guess would be the thing lighten up. It's not that the stuff that we do on a day to day basis is just not that important. In the long run. Nobody gets in because they got enough money or enough power or enough fame. It's how much you loved. That's what what counts and the life review. You know, that's what I hear about that life review. That's going to be interesting. Whoa, were you know I love that I was See my life. But that thing about flipping it around so you can feel how it felt to interact with each person. And each one is another thing that encourages me to be kind. Now I want to see a lot of those, you know where people go, Oh, thank You that was that was nice, you know, I want to see a lot of those in my life review

Alex Ferrari 50:18
Is isn't that but that the concept of the life review is a powerful, powerful idea. Because if you it's non judgmental either and that's the that's the thing that's so beautiful about it, because it just tells you look, you're going to feel how you made everybody that you've interacted with feel that however they felt you're gonna feel it all at the same time. And that's hard for us to understand. But during this life review, so if you did good, you're going to feel good. If you did bad, or negative or hurt somebody you're going to feel that too. That's a hell of a legal guide.

M.K. McDaniel 50:51
For you. Yeah, well, yeah. Get your attention.

Alex Ferrari 50:54
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No. Kathy, where can people pick up this? This thing that weighs at least six pounds? Oh, you could you could kill somebody with this if you hit No, no. Come on. Actually, your right because my first books about 50,000 55,000 words. I'm like, my books not this thick. But yeah, it's different the principles. But what can they where can they pick up your book?

M.K. McDaniel 51:25
Anyplace you sell books, Amazon's probably the best. kindles the cheapest way to get it. I've got audible, I've got CD discs I got, you know, I want that message to get out. And what I really, really appreciate is a reviews, Amazon reviews makes such a difference, not just for me, but any author that spends years of their life and untold funds that will never be replenished. To give you a message or give you pleasure, please take you know five minutes and just go up and give him a star or write a little review.

Alex Ferrari 52:01
I love and I love and I love when I see comments and like, oh, I don't believe this person. They're just talking books. I'm like, yes, because authors are rich. Yes. Massive amounts of cash off of these books. Unless your last name is King or JK Rowling. You're not.

M.K. McDaniel 52:20
Well, you know, the stat is I just saw this on Google the other day, it says the stat for an author is 85% of authors today, sell 250 books to get anywhere from $1 to $5 on a book, you know, and so you got no, you do not make no you do not make any money. Now you go deeply into a hole, but that's part of the message as part of my job as part of my job not to make money. It's to inform people and not even to sell books, because just getting the book is what gives you the entree to be on the podcasts. So it's the podcasts, I think that are doing all the work and it's it's beautiful, and it's wonderful and I'm so grateful.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
And I appreciate that and do you have any parting messages for the audience?

M.K. McDaniel 53:14
I just continue with the loving, kind, merciful, forgiving, encouraging, grateful, non-judgmental and useful. That's that's I say that every morning.

Alex Ferrari 53:28
Kathy thank you so much for not only coming on the show before writing this book and putting this message out there and I love the way you tell your story it is so again as matter of fact about it there's no drama and you're just like these are the facts ma'am. And this is the way and you're just really trying to help people so I do truly appreciate you coming on and and sharing your journey.

M.K. McDaniel 53:50
Thanks Alex I really appreciate it. Good talking to you.

Alex Ferrari 53:54
I've been able to partner with Mindalley to present you guys FREE Masterclass is between 60 and 90 minutes, covering Mind Body Soul Relationships and Conscious Entrepreneurship, taught by spiritual masters Yogi's spiritual thought leaders and best selling authors. Just head over to

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