Dr. Jude Currivan is a cosmologist, planetary healer, futurist, author, and co-founder of WholeWorld-View. She was previously one of the most senior businesswomen in the UK, has a Master’s degree in Physics from Oxford University specializing in quantum physics and cosmology, and a Ph.D. in Anthropological Archaeology from the University of Reading researching ancient cosmologies. She has traveled to nearly 80 countries and worked with wisdom keepers from many traditions, and her extensive experience and knowledge of world events, systems, and trends have led her to speak on transformational reforms in the UK, US, Europe, Japan, South Korea, and Australasia.
She is a life-long researcher into the scientific and experiential understanding of the nature of reality, integrating leading-edge science, research into consciousness, and universal wisdom teachings into a wholistic worldview. She is the author of seven books, latterly the best-selling and Nautilus award-winning The Cosmic Hologram: Information at the Center of Creation (2017, Inner Traditions) and forthcoming The Story of Gaia: The Big Breath and the Evolutionary Journey of our Conscious Planet (October 2022, Inner Traditions) and is a member of the Evolutionary Leaders circle. In 2017 she co-founded WholeWorld-View to communicate the emerging paradigm of unified reality and to serve the understanding, experiencing, and embodying of unity awareness to empower conscious evolution.
In 2022 she was awarded Integral City’s Meshworker of the Year.
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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 258
Jude Currivan PH.D 0:00
We would come to a time and I do feel it's now when we would literally remember who we really are. We would remember our terrestrial our interterrestrial and our extraterrestrial heritage
Alex Ferrari 0:26
I like to welcome to the show, Dr. Jude Currivan. How you doing Dr. Jude?
Jude Currivan PH.D 0:30
I'm delighted to be here. Alex, thanks so much for inviting me. It's a very rainy day in England. So you're bringing sunshine into my day. So thank you so much!
Alex Ferrari 0:39
I appreciate that. I heard you guys had a fairly warm summer, the past?
Jude Currivan PH.D 0:44
We did, but we're now making up for it. And we're getting a blessing.
Alex Ferrari 0:52
Because that's I mean, England is beautiful, but it's not known for its wonderful white sand beaches.
Jude Currivan PH.D 0:58
Alex Ferrari 0:59
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:01
Some, nice beaches. But at the moment, I personally would not invite you onto one because oh, there was some rain and lots of waves.
Alex Ferrari 1:09
But I appreciate it. So I'm gonna just jump right into it. What was how did you begin your journey into spirituality and science, which is I love that bridge that you're able to bring between the two.
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:23
So far past. I was four years old, really, when I began this journey. And it was a it was more of a dance because it wasn't, you know, spirituality, or science, it was a dance of the two right from the get go. Right from the get go. I was very young, I grew up in the north of England. My dad was a coal miner, as as my granddad. So we were not an intellectual family by any stretch. But there was a lot of love. And that was just as because I think I was the cuckoo in the nest. Because I was a very strange child. In so far that I was experiencing sort of multi dimensional realities, literally, since I was very early since I was about four years old. And so I was having telepathic experiences, pre cognitive dreams, out of body experiences. And I was also engaging and communicating with what, you know, a lot of parents would have described as imaginary friends. But since I didn't tell anybody that I was having these communications, nobody said, Oh, they're just imaginary. And that became a lifelong journey of literally walking between worlds in such a natural way that it's It's part and parcel of my life. So my spirituality, if we want to call it that, because it never felt separate from the rest of my life, and experience and existence. But nonetheless, that non physical eyes, I suppose, aspect, aspects of my life, were there from the very earliest times. But I do remember as well, when I was about the same age, looking up into the sky and being fascinated by the stars. And somehow, there's something within me that from a very, again, early age, I was able to recognize the patterns that we call constellations. And so from 678 years old, if I'd have been so plunked down in a strange place, I would have been able to find my way home, through the stars. And so I was fascinated by the universe. And so science. And as my question was, from that date, those days, you know, how was what I was experiencing? How did that then bridge into the realities of our universe, because I was experiencing the world as a much, much grander place. So for me, there's never been a break. It's never been a bridge, because there's never been for me a bridge to cross. It was just experiencing, seeing, exploring the world, in those two different ways. One more from the head. And one more from the heart and the and the experience.
Alex Ferrari 4:24
Well, let me ask you, I mean, at a certain point, in your travels, you realize that not everybody has these, these talking to the different multirealities and, and have this kind of understanding. So I'd imagine at a certain point in your journey, you said, Oh, I'm, I'm the weirdo. I'm the one that nobody else I better either keep this quiet or come out with it. But then you also went down the academic route, which I know does not. Does it sound very open minded to this kind of this kind of talk? So how did You deal or, you know, kind of balance those two, those two worlds, once you realize that you were not, you were this was not a normal scenario,
Jude Currivan PH.D 5:10
I actually think it's more normal than people let on, you know, you know, I get people for for decades have sort of cornered me at parties and said, I've never shared this with anyone,
Alex Ferrari 5:22
Now I get that too now.
Jude Currivan PH.D 5:26
You do. And now it's really fun. Because this last year or so, there have been several books of the, you know, quote, the spiritual awakening of scientists, and more and more and more scientists are sort of sharing their experiences, and naturalizing, the normalizing them. And these are, these are courageous folks, Alex, because, you know, I was saved from being an academic scientist, by the University of making sure I took another route. But if I'd have been in an academic environment, I suspect it would have been very difficult. Fortunately, for me, a, I only sort of got the sense quite late on that I was the weird one. And by the way, the word the word weird, comes from Old English, and it means it means the way of wisdom. So I think we should be proud to be weird. We should be grateful to be with
Alex Ferrari 6:28
Agreed. One weird when we go to another, my dear.
Jude Currivan PH.D 6:34
The way the weird, you know, so, but now more and more folks are acknowledging this. And it's very difficult. I think, if you're educated as our education systems are, with that paradigm, pretty much a materialism and separation, and you went through that as I did. And then if you choose to perhaps train as a doctor, or a scientist or a teacher, yeah, unless you have some inner awakening within your own journey, you're actually in that environment. And in that peer pressure, and those structures and those organizations where that worldview is prevalent, fortunately, for me, and I'd love to hear your story. It still didn't occur to me to share, it wasn't that I was afraid to. I just didn't see the need to share my experiences, and then one day, and I would have been well into my late 30s, I suddenly got a sense, okay, I can start to share this. And it wasn't to try and impose it, or to prove me right and anybody else wrong. It was because I was getting cornered in parties. And I didn't realize that there were people who really, if I was able to share, just from that place of human to human person to person, willingness to be open and vulnerable, then it may offer other people a source of comfort, willingness, openness, invitation to share their stories, because it seems to me, the more we do this, the more we'll recognize that this is our natural way of being. You know, this isn't the weird, this is the weird way. But it's our natural who we really are. So that's really what happened. And I've been on that journey ever since,
Alex Ferrari 8:22
As they say the first one through the wall is when it gets bloodied. And when you step out of line, you're the one that is going to take the arrows as they say, and but if you're able to survive that, being these brave scientists who are coming out, it does give an example to so many others, that you're like, Oh, if he or she did it, maybe I can start talking about it. And I think the world is in a place now in an awakened place that it accepts these conversations so much more than it did before. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on the anomaly that is quantum physics. It annoys the Newtonians so much, what annoys the materialists so much? And what it's the the connections between spirituality between ancient texts that are started, science seems to be catching up to what they've been talking about for 1000s of years. What is your feeling on that? How that is coming up? Our conversation is a spiritual, scientific, quantum physics conversation as we continue to go. These conversations were, unheard of 10 years ago, 15 years ago,
Jude Currivan PH.D 8:22
They were and maybe the easiest way of responding to that is to go back to before the, you know, the early 20th century, because up to that point, the world was was Newtonian. But I have to say, you know, giving Isaac Newton a break. He's now often recognized as being the last of the alchemists, rather than just the first just The first or one of the first of the natural philosophers, or scientists, and he and others, I would say, especially Francis Bacon, who also gets a really bad rap sometimes, as the father of the scientific method. I think for both of them, they were very spiritual people. And I think for both of them, they were rather trying to move beyond the superstition, of their error. And authority of a church that really was was preventing any rational investigation of the deeper nature of reality. And, and then and Copernicus, Galileo, all the folks who were the pioneers of that time, were incredibly brave, because it wasn't just that you might be sort of disparaged by your peers, you might get burned at the stake. Absolutely. This is serious stuff.
Alex Ferrari 8:39
Get the Gallo effect, the Gallo effect, it's literally a term.
Jude Currivan PH.D 10:54
Absolutely. So. But the point is that the more therefore that exploration of the physical world continued, you know, the view of the Church authorities was okay, you can investigate this, but you're not investigating anything beyond this. So the socialism gradually took place between science and spirituality. And that continued until, by the 19th century, we had an incredible mechanistic worldview of materialism and separation. And that became not just the scientific worldview, as we both know, it became the societal perspective. You know, we the Industrial Revolution, organizations, companies, corporations, governments, all of it, all of it, education, health care. We're all based on this worldview. And so, you know, by the 20th century, when the quantum pioneers and Einstein were discovering what were phenomena that were incredibly anomalous, to that mechanistic viewpoint, that will really giving us clues to this deeper nature of reality that was pushed to the side. And even Einstein was uncomfortable with quantum physics, as I'm sure you know, he called it spooky action at a distance, so we can come back to that. But the reality was, what they were unveiling, what were they revealing, were giving us clues that have literally lasted and hung around philosophically, for the last century. But now, we're discovering more and more and more such anomalous phenomena of perspectives, that the old pre quantum pre relativity, mechanistic worldview of separation, and materiality just can't hold any more. Because the evidence is so compelling, that it now you know, those clues from 100 years ago, and are coming front and center, because what they're doing is, instead of them just being closed, that might unconsciousness, a primary to reality. The evidence we're seeing at all scales of existence and numerous fields of research, is bringing that front and center into an unavoidable perspective. And that's what I'd love us to explore. Because this is so exciting. Because the evidence for it, you know,
Alex Ferrari 13:26
Right, it is, it's the equivalent of, you know, the concept of the Earth is the center of the Universe, and Everything revolves around it to the point where you're like, there's just too much evidence now the states, that's just natural guys. But that's what God said, No, he never said that. You said that. Never saw, I never saw a fax, there's an email
Jude Currivan PH.D 13:52
Absolutely. And, you know, when people say this could be the second, you know, Copernican revolution, or second, or third, quantum and relativity. I think it's even more transformational. And groundbreaking, because, you know, when when Copernicus undertook this sort of No, no, no, guys, the sun is the center. And at that time, it was the center of the world. Because we didn't know that there were vast, vast, vast space and time beyond our visible world. For most people, it really didn't matter. They went on with their lives. When quantum physics and relativity physics came in, although for folks like you and I, who are a dare I say, we're weird, and we're nerds, and we were so excited by for most people, it was the world of the very small, or the world of very large, it wasn't their everyday lives. This I think is different. Because what this is showing is that mind and consciousness aren't something we have, but literally what we in the whole world are and this The evidence that I've just, you know, beginning to sort of share isn't just that those tiny quantum scales have a very large, you know, spatial galactic universal scales is in our everyday lives, we find the same patterns, underlying earthquakes and underlying human conflicts. We're seeing the way that galaxies grow is the same as the way cities grow. We're seeing the way that ecosystems are informed. So is the internet, we're seeing the same patterns that affect us every day of our lives, are the same patterns that are all pervasive throughout the whole universe. And they matter because it's how we choose, it's how we behave. It's how we relate. So that's why I think is this is even more substantial as it were.
Alex Ferrari 15:54
Well, so you use the word consciousness. And that's a kind of loaded word, because there's so many definitions for consciousness, how do you define consciousness in this conversation?
Jude Currivan PH.D 16:04
I try not to
Alex Ferrari 16:06
Move on next question.
Jude Currivan PH.D 16:09
Nothing to see here. For me, I define consciousness as self aware sentience of self awareness. And I talk about mind and consciousness, because most of the folks that have studied and paused the understanding of consciousness and mind for their whole lives and very specialized within it, you know, and the ancient understanding, talks about cosmic mind as being the ground of all being, which my experiences wholly correlate with and relate with. So, for me, we are microcosmic co creators, in a universe that is conscious that is living, that exists and evolves as a non locally unified entity, but it is a finite thought, a finite thought of the infinite and eternal mind of the cosmos, whether one wants to describe that as, as God or Allah, or great spirit, great mystery, the grand source, or source, whatever it may be that infinite and eternal, but mind for wellness, and the universe, which is a great effulgence a great thought, a great breadth, a great, you know, conscious exploration, but on a finite scale of that
Alex Ferrari 17:41
But there's also so many levels to consciousness, because there is our consciousness, animal consciousness, plant consciousness, the planets consciousness, the universe, galaxies consciousness, I mean, just the, our solar system and how it works, there is a consciousness around that, as well as our own planet ecosystem. We are, in many ways, ants, on the mole hill of Earth, like we are the little creatures that are doing all sorts of things, just like there are little creatures in our backyard that are doing things, some doing good things, something not so good things. Some eating, some weeds are popping up here and there. But was, is that a fair? Do you think that's fair to say?
Jude Currivan PH.D 18:21
Oh, very, very fair. You know, and this is where the evidence is pointing. This is the thing. And as you said earlier, the evidence is pointing to where the ancient wisdom, especially for me that the Vedic tradition of ancient India, and the Vedic tradition was one that, you know, a number of the quantum physicists literally went out to India, because they were realizing that what they were seeing that the observer and the observed are not separate, that there is potential that there is all pervasive intelligence, and that it's arising from deeper levels, non physical levels of causation. those of them who are already aware of the Vedic tradition. Yeah, we're sharing the word and they were going out and say, Look, we're finding this and the riches that the Vedic sages have sent, yes.
Alex Ferrari 19:12
We've known this for 1000s of years,
Jude Currivan PH.D 19:14
1000s of years, but it's wonderful that now we have this convergence. But yes, and so, for me that, you know, our entire universe exists and evolves as a living, sentient, conscious, non locally unified entity, that from its first moment to 13 point 8 billion years ago began not in a big band, it wasn't big we know that and it wasn't a bank. It was incredibly fine tuned and ordered. But it wasn't just ordered and fine tuned in that moment. Ever since it's instead of it's it's it's been a big breath, this incredible out breath. A space has expanded and times flowed forward to be able to explore There is ever more complexity and self awareness and individuated self awareness. So it is a journey of mind and consciousness. And for me, yes, we're ants. My Aboriginal friends call as Mingo. And especially used to, it means ants, they used to call the folks who the tourists who climbed what we call Ayers Rock, or Uluru Vin goo. And now it's not allowed, but that's what they call them. But we are microcosmic co creators. Because everything in our universe, what we've been shown and seen is that everything in existence has meaning even the weeds in your garden and the ants that bite you and, you know, whatever, everything in existence, has intrinsic meaning and evolution purpose. And that's the incredible new understanding of story that the evidence is pointing to, but the ancient traditions told us of the indigenous wisdom keepers have told us off.
Alex Ferrari 21:08
Yeah, and you were saying that the before the scientists weren't going over to India to study the Vedic since starting in a physicist, or certainly they were doing that in, in the early 19th century, or 18th century or excuse me, 20th century. And yeah, and even Oppenheimer. You know, Oppenheimer literally quoted, I think it was Shiva.
Jude Currivan PH.D 21:32
The destroyer of worlds
Alex Ferrari 21:33
Yeah because he this he, he was even seeing the connections between between back then. But they weren't popular. They weren't put out popular, like they weren't put out like, oh, well, hey, everybody, we figure this out. It was a very small sect, of scientists that and now it's becoming more and more and more and more growing. And as more of a scientist I talked to on the show, more quantum physicists, I talked to in the show, every one of them says, look, there's there's the public face of a quantum physicist, and the private face in the parties in the corners of the parties. And they can't publicly say things that they believe in, because it would be career suicide, or academic suicide at the place that they happen to be. And then there's those brave souls that decide to come out and go, You know what, I don't disagree. This is what the evidence is pointing to. I mean, just the concept of quantum entanglement is annoying to a materialist.
Jude Currivan PH.D 22:29
It but the reality of it is, you may be aware of this, the Nobel Prize for Physics in 2022 was given to three quantum researchers Clouser an aspect and Anton Zeilinger and they've been studying the universal non local nonlocality quantum nonlocality for decades upon decades, experimentally. And the Nobel Prize for Physics is only given to settled science. If it's controversial. The prize isn't given. So for example, Einstein was awarded his Nobel Prize not for relativity theory, because it was still seen as controversial, but for the photo electric effect, whereby photons of light pink out quanta, from from from a metal. And that showed, in fact, the quantized nature of energy matter, along with folks that Max Planck and others. So the fact that the Nobel Prize for Physics last year was given to the scientists studying universal nonlocality, I think is a threshold moment for science. And the other thing is in 2018, an MIT a group at MIT and other universities, which include dams on Selinda, had experimentally managed to what's called entangle, in other words, literally create as a single entity as it were. photons of light in the laboratory with starlight from 600 light years away from photons of light from what's called a quasar, which is a very active, very ancient galactic center 12 point 2 billion light years away, showing the cosmological scale. quantum nonlocality, but you see, this goes back to the very beginnings of quantum physics, because it was realized that for quantum mechanics to work at all, the entire universe had to be non locally entangled. And that's something called Bell's inequality, or Bell's theorem, bells inequality. So what that 2018 experiment was able to do was to show that the levels of entanglement exceeded Bell's inequality and therefore showed that quantum nonlocality was Cosmos at cosmological scales. And although people don't talk about it so much, that the appearance of our universe, it's quantized energy matter. And it's non quantized spacetime do emerge from deeper non physical realms, which is what quantum physics says they do. But everybody went la la la la
Alex Ferrari 25:21
La, la, la, la, la, la, la la.
Jude Currivan PH.D 25:23
Let's look at the technology instead.
Alex Ferrari 25:26
Look at my new iPhone, isn't this pretty? Well, let me ask you, let me ask you the $10,000. Question. What is the cosmic hologram? Are we living in a simulated reality? And is there any proof of that, from what I understand there is, but I'd love to hear your point of view?
Jude Currivan PH.D 25:48
Well, first of all, I wouldn't describe our reality simulator because I think one of the one of the theory one speculations, and it is only speculation going around the rounds, is that our universe is a simulation of essentially an advanced extraterrestrial culture, or sub world that
Alex Ferrari 26:08
That's one yeah, there's also the simulation. There's also the simulation theory of that God or the universe or something else creating it.
Jude Currivan PH.D 26:16
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I think the danger of simulation is describing us as a sort of a computer game. And I think the danger of it, to be honest, is that it takes away what we're discovering as a universe of meaning and purpose. Because you know, we've had the old materialist, scientific, sorry, materialist, separative separation worldview, which has a universe that is essentially dead, that has no inherent meaning or purpose, or evolution is sort of driven by random events, and essentially, accidental universe. Okay. We've now got the evidence that that really is, is turning that on its head. But the simulation suggests something similar. It's sort of disempowers us from agency, it's sort of disempowers us or could be, could be construed to disempower us. So that's why I don't use the word. But what I would say is that, yes, the evidence is showing that essentially, the reality of our universe is holographically manifested, and the proof for that, and that the basis for that goes back some while now mean, many deck a number of decades, to the earliest studies of black holes, and the thermo, what's called thermodynamics of black holes. And the question was, what happens when you get a massive star, that at the end of its life runs out of its nuclear fuel, and therefore, gravitationally collapses? And because it's so massive, the gravitational collapse is so powerful, that it isn't stopped. And the star as a sphere, it was a sphere as a star. So it collapses very clear. And it collapses beyond a point called an event horizon, where the gravity is so strong that not even light can escape, hence the term black hole, then the question was, well, what happens to all the information of that star and cut a long story short, it became understood that instead of the information being lost, it's retained on the event horizon, but instead also of it being proportional to the volume of the star, or the black hole event horizon, in other words, the volume of that 3d sphere. And it's actually proportional to the two dimensional surface area of the event horizon. Now to some bright folks, such as Leonard Susskind and Jacob Beck and Stein and Leonard to Hooft, and and to Hooft, and others others, they realize that that was very similar to a hologram, because in a hologram lightish is shined off an object. Well, a light beam is basically split. Part of the beam is shining off a 3d object, it could be an apple, it could be you, it could be anything you choose. And the light, when it comes back is reflected back is full of information about that object. When that then is combined with the other part of the beam, a two dimensional pattern of information is produced around about that 3d object. And then when another beam of light is shone through that patterning, a hologram is projected, of the three dimensional appearance of that original object that you can walk around that you can now acoustically interact with all sorts of incredible technologies. But when those folks expanded what they were discovering about the information on black holes and expanded it to the whole universe, they realize that our entire universe could be a holographic projection of information projected as the appearance, the three dimensional appearance, or the four dimensional appearance of space time three dimensional space and the one dimension of time. Now, since that time, virtually every theoretical framework that's pushed forward string theory or push forward, you know, try to quantize gravity or just try to make sense of stuff has come to a very similar conclusion that we can actually better explain the appearance of our universe as a holographic projection, and one of meaningfully in formed in formation. So I sometimes joke that quantum physics is so 20th Because we're now realizing that the appearance of our universe it's quantized, space, quantized energy matter. And I'll use a different word here is entropic space time, is both arises from deeper levels of in for intelligent meaning for mindful, center causation. As information expressed as quantized energy matter, and information expressed in a complementary way, as entropic spacetime and when you bring those together, which I've done in my last couple of books, you get a framework where, you know, with very straightforwardly, you expand the three laws of thermodynamics to loads of information, and suddenly like a Rubik's Cube, everything just pulls together. And you can understand how our universe exists and evolves in this way.
Alex Ferrari 32:01
First of all, this is heresy. You shall be burned at the stake any day now.
Jude Currivan PH.D 32:05
My face it, my face is getting very warm as we speak.
Alex Ferrari 32:10
I mean, you're basically throwing so much I mean, I love that explanation. By the way, that's why it's such a beautiful, elegant explanation of of what the hologram the cosmic hologram that we're that we're living in, because from and please correct me, I've heard now that they're discovering that even in the center of every galaxy, there is a black hole, which then so in the middle of the Milky Way, somewhere, there's a black hole that is created this now, arguably, theoretically, based on what your what you just said, that, that could be the reflection of that black hole is creating the reflection of this this galaxy? Is that a possibility?
Jude Currivan PH.D 32:56
It's certainly an intriguing perspective of it, because you know, we are we are now speaking of a universe that exists and evolves as a living, sentient, conscious, non locally unified entity from its very beginnings tiny, tiny, fine to beginning 13 point 8 billion years ago. And we're also now realizing that those what's called supermassive black holes, as you refer to the middle of our Milky Way, looks to be at the center of all, if not many, many, but possibly all galaxies as they evolved from those, those early epochs. And our supermassive black hole is is not that big. I mean, it's 3 million sizes of our soul. But because one that's just been discovered, I think that's 30 billion stars, suns, in the scale of it, I mean, they're absolutely vast. And we're very fortunate because ours is quite quiescent. Some are very active, but ours is quite quiescent. But essentially, they are the, you know, in essence, they are aspects of the memory of our of our world of our universe moving forward. But don't forget, when I talk about the cosmic hologram, I'm talking about our entire universe, the boundary of what we call space time, as a two dimensional boundary, one of space one of time. The reason space expands and Time flows, is that without that it could exist, it can evolve, because every, every moment what's called the Planck scale moment, at every Planck scale of that boundary, which is minute, further information further, if you like, universal information can then be holographically projected, and that enables us to have this conversation 13 point 8 billion years after that first moment where our universe was as simple as it could be, but no simpler, rather like a baby universe to begin this incredible evolutionary journey, but space expanding is every moment there is more of that holographic boundary. You know, the Indian tradition has the Akashic Record. Is that story? Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 35:19
Well, let me ask you this, then I'll be devil's advocate here. If we are a hologram, and we're living in a holographic environment, how are we physical? Because when I seen the hologram, you could push right through it. It's not a physical thing. So what consists of this material, materialism that we are in this physical aspect to it?
Jude Currivan PH.D 35:41
Well, first of all, when we drill down, and we've known this, as long as the constant understanding, you get 99.999999999999%, no thinness and what's remaining is relationships and informational relationships. Okay. You know, when when I was at school, I was taught atoms were little billiard balls. They're not. They are vibrational informational relationships. But the other the other sense of that. So so are our universe is innately relational, but it's not solid. The reason we were not great loop, the reason we don't sink through the floor are aspects of quantum mechanics, which is the Paoli exclusion principle, primarily, which means that for the particular types of entities that make us up, those waveforms that we call, you know, quarks and electrons, they can't occupy the same quantum state at the same time. Yeah, so all the, the makeup of our bodies can't occupy the same quantum state, so we don't just merge into each other. Whereas light, which is a different type of phenomenon can do, which is why holograms can hold so much information. But the other, the other force that's coming into this appearance of separation is electromagnetism. So we have electrostatic was called electrostatic repulsions. Because the outer orbits of of electrons in atoms are negatively charged, and like and like repel. So we have the power exclusion principle, and the, you know, the phenomena of electromagnetism that, you know, make our appearance as solid even though we're not
Alex Ferrari 37:29
Right! And as I said, that class that question, I'm saying it more for people listening. But the second you said, Well, you know, I'm like, yeah, forgot about that we are pure energy. And there is no space if you drill down deep enough. So we're basically just, it seems almost like we're code. There's a, there's a programming code behind all of this in this not literally, I'm saying but as an analogy, there is the code of our bodies, what and then the DNA and then if you want to start getting into a little bit more metaphysical aspects of doing harm, and all these other aspects, generational karma, you know, why is there a mole in your back? Why can't you do this? What what's causing that there's no reason why these all this kind of old, it's all information, it seems like it's constant information moving in and out all the time.
Jude Currivan PH.D 38:22
It really is. And I I've been accused of being obsessed with hyphens in life information to really differentiate between some meaningless gobbledygook and the meaningful information, which is the basic stuff of our universe of the whole world. And as you say, Alex, you know what, this cosmic hologram model, and that I continue to write about in the story of Gaia, too, which is the evolutionary story of what that means is a meaningfully in formed universe, which is also multi dimensional. So it has levels of, of intelligence, archetypal intelligence in in both incarna and discarnate forms. So it's a much grander, most wondrous, exciting, you know, story and a new and unitive narrative, where, you know, everything in existence has meaning an evolutionary purpose, which means we do
Alex Ferrari 39:26
Yeah, without question. I love what you're saying in regards to the multi, multi dimensional multi-dimensional Because this is one dimension, then the, you know, I've spoken to so many near death experiencers. And they have, they visited another dimension of some sort out of body experience. There's channels, other people talking, and then if you go into the Vedic texts, they talk about, like, I think it's 49 levels of different consciousness that you can grow into Ascended Masters go to so you know, and you constantly are evolving. There's so much shoved into it. But now that now that the scientists like yourself are starting to quantify it for us in a different way, where it's not woowoo anymore, we're getting farther and farther away from woowoo. And getting more closer and closer to reality and proof and evidence. But I have to ask you a question. This is a question of it, because you've mentioned that a few times in our conversation time. Now my perspective on time, is it is a man made object and our time is based around the rotations around our sun, if you leave our solar system time does not exist in the way No, it's not gonna be 12 o'clock somewhere. It's not gonna be one o'clock somewhere. What is your definition of time in the scope of universal time versus our little, our little 12 o'clock, one o'clock thing that we got going on here?
Jude Currivan PH.D 40:49
Well, before I do that, before I forget, I love I love to say we're moving from woowoo to we we
Alex Ferrari 40:57
That's wonderful. I love that.
Jude Currivan PH.D 40:59
This is who we really are. Yes, I think this is a really common misunderstanding if please, to honor that perspective. Because when Einstein realized that space was relative to the position of an observer, and time was relative to the position of an observer, I think that wasn't his greatest genius. He continued to follow the evidence. And what he followed it to was that yes, space is relative, yes, time is relative of themselves. But we have to bring them together as invariant was called in variant space time. So what he understood is when we describe an event, we can't just say three dimensions of space. Yeah, we have to say three dimensions of space and one of time. And when we bring that four dimensionality into a measurement, it doesn't matter whether we're making that measurement here on Earth, a galaxy far, far away, and a long, long time ago, or wherever. And that invariance of space time is that we can as cosmologists talk about a universe that began 13 point 8 billion years ago, as that first tiny, tiny moment of an ongoing, out breath, and ongoing big breath as I describe it. And the way that this works is that a space expands at every, you know, in a Planck scale area. And this is my new, this is named after Max Planck, who's one of the great pioneers. But at every Planck scale time, which is also minute, more and more and more and more information is able to be holographically manifested within space time. So we do have universal time, otherwise, we couldn't, you know, the laws of physics wouldn't work, nothing would hang together. And but we also have this personal perspective of time. You know, Einstein once said, and it was only he who could say this and get away with it, probably, that if you sit on a hot cooker, a minute feels like an hour. But if you're sitting with a beautiful young girl, an hour feels like a minute. Now, that's a personal sense of time. But I'm talking here about the both and yes, and you know, our perspective of time, so much of our biology is based on our position on our planetary home going round our sun. But I'm going way beyond this and saying it's a both and that is as cosmologists As humans, we can also understand that our entire universe is undertaking a journey of space time, where there is a universal time and it's one way flow. And it goes from the past to the present. And a teach moment where the bow wave of that here and now with the future still to unfold.
Alex Ferrari 44:05
It's very interesting if you watch that movie Interstellar Chris Nolan, and get me started on that movie. Is that a bad movie or a good movie? Tell me I love the movie. I
Jude Currivan PH.D 44:14
I deplore the signs because it's
Alex Ferrari 44:16
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough, regardless of that, but the concept of what he what they said in regards to when they go when they were in the spaceship there, let's say 24 hour period. But if you go down to the planet, every minute that goes by as a year every five minutes goes by it's a year and then when they got back you know 15 minutes later the guy's 75 years or something like that. Yeah. I I'm fascinated now with this cosmic time. Universal Time as you call this time, because it is I agree with you 100% There has to be some we are in a you know if I leave this planet and travel a million light years from now, my body will still break down based on whatever measurement of time I'm used to. It could be five seconds, it's look, look at the measurement of time in dogs and cats, you know, dog years, dog years versus art, it's a different perspective and a different solution, a different, conscious, conscious perspective of where we're at. So my year is seven years of my cat or less a dog, because it's called dog years, they estimate. So they're experiencing time, completely different than we are just like an ant, or a gnat that lives for, you know, what, 24 hours, completely is a different perspective than us. So there is a form of time, I think that we get caught up in the whole, revolving around the sun time, which is like 12 o'clock, one o'clock, two o'clock, is the master time clock, but there is a universal kind of clock that's different, which is how you can say 4 billion years ago that
Jude Currivan PH.D 46:00
Absolutely and yeah, but it's not an either or, it's both. And so as you say, your dog's experience, his or her life in the way he or her is experiencing that life and the timing of that life, as will be a mayfly, as is you and I. And the whole universe is experiencing now that universal time is measured in in what we call Planck seconds. But the point of the Planck scale, it really is it shows us this deeper understanding of our universes, reality, because there are four constants in the universe, that we could measure whatever measures we want to, but they're the speed of light, the gravitational constant, Planck's constant, and what's called Boltzmann's constant, which is around thermodynamics. When you bring them together, they shake out into five measures of energy, and matter and space, and time and temperature. Now, those measures can actually do what scientists call normalize. In other words, the Planck distance can be identified as the distance that light that constant light travels in one Planck time. So it can all come down to the number one, which means that whether you and I were measuring them in our measures, or some being some, you know, being extraterrestrial, being far into the future or far surpass was measuring them, they would tell them as they're telling us, foundational understanding about the nature of reality of our universe. And that's why we can talk about universal space time, and universal energy matter in the way we can. And it all hang together as a non locally unified entity, where time can be measured from that point 13 point 8 billion years ago, and with every Planck scale time, you know, as a space also expand some time flows to tell this story of our universe. And yet, we can also and it is a both and experienced the passing of time, in our own self aware consciousness.
Alex Ferrari 48:12
We've all done that. Yeah, we've all were engrossed in a book, watching a movie, having a conversation, you know, an athletic situation where you're in the flow, as they say that time stands still. All of that stuff,
Jude Currivan PH.D 48:29
all of that. And also, once we move beyond this, this this cosmic hologram in these dimensions of space time. So you know, our universe both knows itself, in its wholeness, because of its non local universality. And within space time, the speed of light is the cosmic speed cop, which enables that causality that universal causality to play out over all of these 13 point 8 billion years and ongoing. So again, it's this both and but when we move into discarnate, multi dimensional levels of existence and awareness, I'm sure you've had so many conversations, and I've had many, many experiences, that the sense of time is very different.
Alex Ferrari 49:18
Oh, absolutely. Time has flown as you and I have been speaking, I don't even you know, it's when you're engrossed in something, your consciousness Your attention is on something so intently, Time Stands Still or flies by in a way, just like Einstein said, when you're with your loved one a minute, you know, or an hour feels like a minute, but if you're sitting at the DMV trying to get your your license renewed an hour See, a minute seems like no question whatsoever. No, it is. It is fascinating, and I've heard now please, please correct me if I'm wrong that because you In the speed of light, that the expansion of the universe is going faster. Is that true or not heard that?
Jude Currivan PH.D 50:08
No, it's not. But what you probably heard it as was a very, very early epoch of the universe that's hypothesize it's not yet proven, and called the inflationary period. Right now, the inflationary period was was really a hypothesis put forward to get over the the sort of the the the homogeneity of our universe, and the horizon what's called the horizon problem, our universe. But when we move into this perspective of a cosmic hologram, where the whole universe is non locally unified, that view and that framework does not need an Inflationary Epoch. And the inflationary Park was perceived to be where, where space space, the whole space expanded faster and speed of light. So I've, you know, I'm happy to follow wherever the evidence leads. But the evidence is not yet in that there was indeed an Inflationary Epoch, even though that's often, you know, seen as as a fact, it really isn't. We haven't got the proof of that yet. And it brings its own problems with it. Because nobody knows how it would start if it started. And nobody knows how it would stop.
Alex Ferrari 51:24
If it's ever going to stop, right?
Jude Currivan PH.D 51:27
Well, the idea is that there's lots of buddings off of universes. And there's a wonderful rule of thumb in science called Occam's razor, which is basically go with the simplest it can be, but no simpler, which is an Einstein quote as well. And this, this really violates, in that sense, Occam's razor. And I don't think it's necessary. So we'll see, we'll see.
Alex Ferrari 51:52
Well, let me ask you this, because, again, I've heard this concept that the universe is infinite. And if it's not infinite, what the hell is on the edge?
Jude Currivan PH.D 52:03
Okay, let's let's do that. Let's do that. This, there's nothing in space time, nothing that is infinite. Every measure within space time of our universe is finite. Our universe began a finite time ago, not an infinite time ago, finite time ago. We also know looking from looking at analysis of hydrogen, that about 9 billion years ago, our universe had a huge sort of push of stellar formation, which uses hydrogen. And that has progressively fallen off. So our universe has very, very little hydrogen left to make more stars. But the biggest one, the other thing is that, from the very early epoch of our universe, when it became transparent to light, and atoms could form it, basically, it began to, there was a radiance. Throughout art throughout space, a space has expanded ever since that radiance has moved into the micro, it has been stretched into microwave wavelengths, and it's now called the cosmic microwave background. When that was analyzed, tiny little temperature differences that were analyzed only a few years ago. And first of all, they were found to embed the patterns that I was referring to earlier, these these patterns that are all scales of existence. And across numerous fields of research, we call them fractals. But those temperature differences were seemed to be fractals. But also, they were only a finite wavelengths, they fill all of space. So there's nothing in space and nothing in the cosmic microwave background that is not finite, okay. We also now know from this framing of a cosmic hologram, that is, is itself finite is a holographic boundary. That is a boundary of of a conscious but finite universe. And the final piece of sort of, if you like, potential evidence, is that our universe began in its in its hottest state is Planck scale temperature. And its lowest informational content, or what I call entropy. And ever since a space has expanded and times float, the temperatures dropped and the entropy is increased. Now, we're now at a temperature of only 2.7 degrees above absolute zero, whereas it started at a temperature of 10 to the 32 degrees Kelvin, trillions and trillions of times hotter than the center of our sun. So we're right down at the the sort of the final, you know, pushes as it were, where the entropy the informational content still expanding, but the temperature will fall And it can't fall below below absolute zero. So that again, suggests a finite ending. Now what's then beyond it? Infinity? It's where we get back to the Vedic sages.
Alex Ferrari 55:16
Right in the kitchen. There's the science can go so far. Yes. And until we finally we until you fund until you've run into a wall, meaning like, Okay, so the big breath, got it the Big Bang, if you want to call it that fine, whatever. What was there prior? Where does it come from? How did it's in this is, and this is where you, you know, have to kind of go into the spiritual paths to kind of dig into the Vedic and into these ancient ideas that are far beyond what we can comprehend yet. And we're still trying to figure out things that they've been saying for 1000s of years, and they're discovering new things in archaeology and all the time and get into ancient civilizations, because that could be a whole other lovely conversation. A whole other subject. But it is fascinating that we are I mean, finally, there was a beautiful explanation. By the way, I've learned immense, immense amount of stuff in this conversation. But let me ask you something, because I've heard this term thrown around, I'd love to hear what you think of it. What is sacred geometry? And how does that affect, you know, the role of how it's just the universe is structured?
Jude Currivan PH.D 56:22
Well, there is a there is a teaching, there's a curriculum of teaching called the quad rivet, quadrivium. And that means fourfold. And it comes back to this ancient Universal Wisdom Teachings perspective that everything in what we call reality is essentially number with a cosmic hologram. And the understanding that, you know, we've just touched on today, that number, those numbers, those basic numbers are ones and zeros of digitized information with me being obsessed by the hyphen, meaningful information, and they are the pixelation of our universal reality at the Planck scale. And they then accumulate to form literally to form the appearance of quantized energy matter. And in Tropic space time, but from those zeros and ones, we can express numbers, we can express numbers, for example, in a Fibonacci series of 011234. And we find the Fibonacci series. And many, many other numerical relationships form the patterning at all scales of existence. But the quadrivium founded on this cosmology, of have you idealize numbers, talk of music as being number in time, and geometry has been number in space. So we talk about sacred geometry, it's just a recognition of the sacredness of creation and this beautiful, you know, spiritually based universally consciousness basis of all that we call our reality. So, there is such an end the ancient Greek geometers, who only had a sort of straight edge and something to run with a mark with, you know, realize that you know, we had five types of three dimensional appearances of perfect solids called the platonic solids, tetrahedron, the cube, etc. And in two dimensions, a tetrahedron is a triangle. Now, what we realize now, is that instead of the idealized shapes, where you know triangles, same level, same relationships, you can scale it up, scale it down, same relationships, we now discover through analysis of vast amounts of data, the so called fractal the so named fractal patterns, which are at their their their what's called their asymptote, their convergence become those idealized shapes. But because clouds are fractal river systems are fractal the solar wind is fractal atoms cluster their electrons fractally, when they change from insulators to metals, these are not the idealized but they are relational. They are innately relational. And they also scale up and scale down. So these are the patterns of reality. So all is sacred geometry.
Alex Ferrari 59:33
That's beautiful, beautifully stated, beautifully stated. And speaking of the shape of a triangle, and math, I'd love to hear your point of view on the pyramid, the Great Pyramid and the math that's embedded in it. It is so profound. Yes, yes, it is a message of of I think it's I forgot what the exact mathematical mathematical equation is. But if you multiply it by x number, you get the circumference of the earth. And if you and then if you do another one, the height of it is the height of the Earth, it's like, it was like almost the ancients were leaving this information behind in the only way they knew that was not going to be erased, and not taken out. Where do you think this this detailed information came from? Because, as you say, I love ancient civilization and love ancient history lost it, I love all this, that's another conversation we could have at another time, because I would love to get into it with you about that, as well. But it seems that the pyramids, which should have gotten better in with time, the graded a went straight down hill. And it was like that was the peak, the Sphinx was the peak of, of whatever was there at that time, the people and so on. And the technology has kept getting worse and worse and worse. What is your thoughts behind? Who created it? What created it? And how in God's green earth could they have inserted such precise mathematical equations in the geometry of a pyramid at a time when, quote, unquote, we were supposed to be, you know, just you know, running around in the sand, you know, praying to raw likes.
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:01:30
Absolutely. It is another conversation, because it is so vast, but many years ago, clairaudient Lee, I was given that we would come to a time, and I do feel it's now when we would literally remember who we really are. And we would remember our terrestrial, our intra terrestrial and our extraterrestrial heritage. And it seems to me that we're on the threshold of so much of this now. And it's a remembering that or is inviting us to open our hearts and our minds to these incredible possibilities and understanding, not so that we open our mind and, you know, our brains drop out, you know, it really is, but the evidence has been discovered now, in so many ways. And, you know, we're in a situation where, you know, for the first time we have NASA investigating UFOs UAPs we have, you know, we have Congress, we have so much we have pilots 100. Now, I think well, more pilots have just signed a new letter saying disclosure, we're on the threshold, I think of what I was given many years ago, this will be a time of remembering. So those ancient mysteries, those incredible abilities, I think are now you know, being rediscovered and reevaluated and reopened up and we'll have a much more profound perspective of this. And the other thing that I'm really excited about is what this is showing us and what the evidence is showing us is is it's naturalizing multidimensional communications, so you know, synchronicities super normal for now, phenomena, not supernatural, not paranormal, super normal. These are naturalized you know, heritage as microcosmic, co creators of this wonderful, marvelous universe. So I think we're in an incredible moment. And it's a crucial moment of choice. Because our worldview of materialism separation has brought us to this edge of an abyss. And unlike, you know, I know a lot of folks and it really is an incredibly challenging moment. But just just sense and I know you do and I hope our, our listeners to just sense the invitation of our universe, to grow up to become its CO evolutionary partner of consciousness, to remember that we're not just human beings. You know, our planetary home Gaia is sentient with guidance. If we can do that we have the evidence now to support us. That as my dear friend, Joanie, Carly says, you know, Unity isn't an aspiration. It's our existential reality. My other dear friend, Julie crawl says, Unity isn't ideal. It's real. So what do we wake up to be where the unity is expressed in radical diversity, where we have meaning and purpose and uniquely so
Alex Ferrari 1:04:44
Is is so so beautiful when you say that it's, I think we're getting better at it. But I think there's so much of this dogmatic programming that we have been forced throughout our existence. Since that if it skews away from the programming that we've had since, and I use the word programming strategically, because we, as we're born, we're programming around us people and our parents beliefs, and all this kind of stuff, if anything, differs from our foundational programming of what the world is reality is, God, the universe, our religion, what a position of a woman is, and our man is in society and all of these things, when that is challenged, that's when wars happen. That's when action happens. That's when you fight to defend it, I do see an opening of those ideas, especially in the newer generation, the older generation is just ground in. I fully I believe my generation is kind of a bridge generation, because we have one foot in the old and we have one foot in the new I was I knew what it was like before the internet, I knew when it was born, and knew how it is afterwards, where my children were born in a place where they just don't understand a time where you couldn't have every bit of information at your fingertips whenever you want it. So it, it is interesting to see how we're going to move forward as a as a species as a species.
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:06:21
I agree. And you know, for me, it's really interesting this year 2023 Is the 400th anniversary of a book called de augmentin, Sanitarium by Francis Bacon. And I mentioned earlier, you know, he's often given a bad rap as sort of leading us into this materialist perspective, reading his work, and knowing some of the scholars that have studied his work for a very long time, I would suggest a different perspective, that he realized, as I mentioned that his world was steeped in superstition, and it was no longer healthy, and it was not healthy. And so the scientific method was a method of being able to follow the evidence lead. And for him, my perspective, is that he hoped it would reveal the divine, it wouldn't get rid of the Divine, it would reveal it, and bring it into a greater understanding of the nature of reality. And there's a very esoteric pulse around 400 years, and this year is the 400th year anniversary. So I'm just sort of sitting and waiting and drinking my tea. And this is the but just to perhaps finish with your point, because I'm part of a group of of thought, thought folks around the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, and their realization that with a siloed thinking of the worldview that, you know, you've been describing, that those sustainable development goals cannot be implemented, because they they're not intricate, they don't recognize the full interconnectedness of all that they're seeking to try and achieve achieve. And so last year, I worked with a group of folks who came up with what we call a unitive narrative, which is the new a new narrative of unity and diversity based on the evidence. But just before the end of last year, the United Nations for the first time, in its 77 year history, formally adopted a grouping of NGOs and other organizations, what's called a thematic cluster, based on unity, a unity of thematic cluster, whose aim is to bring all of this understanding into implementations and interventions and capacity building and education and governance and all the other. And so a lot of my work, and many, many others now, are really, you're hoping to share and invite and it's not an imposition, Alyx. And it's not a threat, because all ways are all paths at the same mountain, in this in this understanding. So it's an invitation to join the party, and an honor every pass and all paths.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:10
Dr. Jude, I can talk to you for another three or four hours without question. I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. How, what is your definition of living a fulfilled life?
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:09:20
For me, it's a life of its life of experiencing that I am, I belong. I belong to the whole world, that there is no separation for me. So it's a life of love. It's a life of joy. It's a life of gratitude. It's a life of curiosity. It's life of meaning, whatever that meaning is, for me. It's a life of purpose, whatever that purpose is for me. And it's also life where I feel that my happiest, most joyful when I serve the good of the whole
Alex Ferrari 1:09:57
How do you define God?
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:09:58
God is everything.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:59
It's Simple as that. If you had an opportunity to go back to your younger self and give your younger self that little girl a piece of advice, what would it be?
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:10:08
Get over yourself!
Alex Ferrari 1:10:13
Very true, especially if it's a teenage version of you and last question what is the ultimate purpose of life?
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:10:24
To love and to know that we're we're to love and to know that we were loved that we are microcosmic co creators meaningful, purposeful in a loving universe
Alex Ferrari 1:10:35
And where can people find out more about you and pick up your book, The Story of Gaia and all the other work you're doing?
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:10:41
The website is www.wholeworld-view.org, which is an organism social organization. It's an organism that I co founded in 2017, when the cosmic hologram was launched. And it's saying Our aim is to serve the understanding, experiencing and embodying of unitive awareness. So that has loads of resources.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:10
Fantastic. And do you have any parting words for our audience?
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:11:13
Somebody once asked me what would be my guidance to myself and my guidance to myself if I ever have a quandary in life is to choose love. Just to choose love.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:26
As Wayne Dyer as Wayne Dyer said so beautifully. When you have the chance to be right or the or the chance to be to either to love or to be right always choose love or be kind to be the kind or be right choose being kind always be kind always choose love. My dear it has been a pleasure and honor speaking to you I have to have you back. You is wonderful conversation. So thank you so much for not only this conversation before what you do with in the world to try to awaken us all to the truth of where we're at my dear. Thank you so much!
Jude Currivan PH.D 1:11:58
Bless you Alex has been an absolute joy. Thank you so much. And back atcha!
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