The Ancient Way of Taoism with George Thompson

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Can you give any advice to someone listening right now who is so ingrained in their story, yet open to change because they're watching this conversation?

George Thompson 0:09
You know, what is unfamiliar is unsafe for our nervous system is my understanding of something bigger than myself, and the extent to which that understanding is a resource to support me. For me, suggests there's a nature to being human being, and as I have an inner critic, my undermines a part of being human. So this idea that we can form this deeper understanding and this clarity Know thyself from observation, between heaven and earth, humanity stands and the Tao connects us all, finding more clarity as to my life's purpose and meaning, and then the natural consequence of that is this joy and ease and peace and balance. So even if I'm really hurting right now, beating myself up and being, you know, in that state of anxiety is that at least I'm still breathing, I'm still alive.

Alex Ferrari 1:06
I'd like to welcome to the show, George Thompson man, how you doing George?

George Thompson 1:09
Alex, I'm really good. Great to be with you.

Alex Ferrari 1:11
Thank you so much man. I'm so excited to have you on the show man. Because your journey, your spiritual journey, your inner journey, your Inner Awakening is very inspirational. I know you have been going you went through a lot of the same ailments, if you will, not physical ailments, though some, but mental elements, emotional elements, ailments that so many human beings on the planet have gone through. And you, for yourself, discovered a path that works for you. So we're gonna dive into that rabbit hole, man, and we're gonna see how, how you came out of the hole that you were in, and what you discovered along your journey. And of course, how we met is through your amazing film, the subtle art of losing yourself, correct? Not, finally, for losing yourself, yes,

George Thompson 1:59
I want to do a shout out to you quickly. Is like your book filmtrepreneur is something that I read early on, and you know, like I I'm excited to share my story, and I'm grateful to be in space with you, and, yeah, sharing films that inspire balance, you know, for me, for you, for humanity, and to show the beauty of nature through film. And that our potential as human beings, that's turned into, somehow, my life mission, and I'm really passionate about creating a team around that. And you know, I've run a YouTube channel with almost 300,000 subscribers now and 10s of millions of views, which I'm so grateful for. And so yeah, on that way of sharing these ideas, these ancient teachings that I found. And yeah, your book was really important on that journey. So, yeah, celebrating you. Appreciate you.

Alex Ferrari 2:43
Oh, I appreciate that so much, my friend. I really, really do. So first and foremost, man, let's, let's go back to the beginning. What? Where were you in your life that you were just like you were hit. You hit a rock bottom for yourself pretty early on too, because you're, you seem like a very young man, unless you're like 80 and you're just doing something I don't know about, but you seem like a very young man. So to hit rock bottom like I hit rock bottom for myself, and probably around 26, 27 is when I personally hit rock bottom, and I had to just dig my way back out. But for you, how old were you and what was going on in your life that you just really were at the end of your rope.

George Thompson 3:25
And a quick note on age, yeah, Tai Chi masters, they look at they're 85 but they actually look 60, and got the energy of a much younger person. So it is a thing, but not in this case. So yeah, I started my journey, really, after after university, after education, and entered into the big, bad, real world. I was always wanted to be a filmmaker, and I started a YouTube channel, making videos that I thought were good. Nobody was watching them. I created my value as a human being with the number of views I was getting, I wasn't getting any views. Therefore I wasn't valuable, and I really didn't know who I was, you know, I was single, living with my parents, not many friends, working, doing, delivering food, on my bike, making videos. And suddenly, all of this confluence of my basic needs as a human being, not being met, you know, for connection and for support and for expressing myself, a new character began to dominate my headspace, who I personified as a troubled wizard called the underminer. Would say, George, still single, not many friends. Oh, and now you're anxious. You are pathetic. Look at everything you've been given. You are weak. And really, you know, the judgment I'd give myself is objectively, nothing has really changed. I've just been by myself for three months, and yet, now I'm in the deepest mental health crisis of my life so far, and that shame I felt around, that anxiety that I was feeling and feeling sick and stuck in bed and not wanting to express it to anyone, multiplied and perpetuated this pain. So really, that was the start of my journey of like I need to change. I'm hurting a. Lot right now, and I need to learn how to be with myself.

Alex Ferrari 5:04
That's ,that's so, how did you I mean, so everything you just explained a common a common thing, especially for young people, and also people my age and older, sometimes they have these kind of crises that they have a mental health issue that they just can't get through. And I'd argue it's also an emotional issue. I'm also a spiritual issue, because you're just trying to figure it out. Would you agree that we're all just trying to figure this thing called life out, all of us the second where it just spit into this world, in this cold, hard world. You know, depending on our parents and our environment and our upbringing, it could be a negative or a positive thing or a balance of both. But then we just attach ourselves to stories, stories that make sense to us or that were spoon fed to us by our community, our parents, our culture, or whatever, and then if anyone comes along that kind of disrupts that, that's when the violence starts, because you can't break, you can't break that story up, you know, because you're not open, you're locked in, because it's something that you've held on so tight to, because I need to hold on to this in order to keep going. If you say something that goes against what I'm I'm thinking or I believe in, then that negates everything I believe in my foundation's gone. And it sounded like your foundation was rocky to begin with, but then throw all the pressure on top of you, that foundation could have hold it, and it literally broke through, and you had to find a story or a system or understandings that you could grab on to and hold on to from my understanding, or at least from my feeling. It's not that you're at least from what I've seen in your movie and the work that you do, you're not rigid, you're very open. You flow with ideas that come in and out, which is the perfect way always be the student. But would you agree with what I just said?

George Thompson 7:05
Absolutely, yeah. And the image that came to mind is the way that some hunters capture monkeys is they put a nut in a gourd, and the monkey has to put their hand in the gourd, and then they grab the food, but then, as they've made the fist, they the hand is too big to get out of the gourd again, and so suddenly the monkey's trapped. And then the hunters come and pick the monkey up, because the monkey's just holding on to this thing, and all the monkey needs to do is let go of what's in their hand, and then they can get out and be safe. But they are rigid. They're stuck. They're stuck in Okay, food equals safety. This is what I need, and they don't know how to let go. So this is a known way to capture the monkey. And so that is a, you know, a metaphor for the rigidity in our minds and how we hold on to stories. And, yeah, like, change your story, change the world. That's something I'm sure we're going to be exploring today, is just how important these stories are. And you know, what is unfamiliar is unsafe for our nervous system. So even if I'm really hurting right now, beating myself up and being, you know, in that state of anxiety is that at least I'm still breathing, I'm still alive, and this is safe for me. And so what is unfamiliar is unsafe to step outside of that. Take some energy, take some support, which is why, yeah, it is a not only an emotional healing, but a spiritual healing, and one of Really Know thyself, understand thyself, to know that it's safe to open up into uncertainty and the unknown. And that is certainly one of the big gifts that Taoism, the philosophy of the mountain that I studied on that we can get to, is really one of his big gifts is moving with uncertainty, embracing that and actually seeking it out

Alex Ferrari 8:47
That, yeah, I actually, we just released on Next Level Soul TV, the Tao Te Ching for people to start to listen to again, into and to Read that book, because it's such a powerful, powerful, small book, short read, very, very powerful. And it is a story. It is a system. It is something that people can use to get to where they're going to and help them. And would you agree that not every system, not every story, not every ancient wisdom tradition is perfect for everybody. Everyone has there's 1000 paths to the same place. Would you agree?

George Thompson 9:30
Absolutely! Yeah. So I like to say I'm exploring Tao without the ISM. So what is the Tao? The Tao literally translates as the way or the path, and it can refer to the ways of the cosmos, or it can refer to the ways of filmmaking, the ways of knitting, the ways of Alex, the way of George, and the way of our beautiful viewers and listeners. So the Tao is the path, the way. And so then to understand the Tao, know thyself is to gain clarity, and with that clarity, we gain wisdom, the ability to navigate life with skill and. And with wisdom, curtains, peace, balance, harmony. So for you know, to have the truth being in a book like I'm a Taoist, and I read the Tao Te Ching exclusively, this is what the truth is, is to actually have a dead relationship. That's knowledge, not wisdom. Because wisdom has to be applied to this moment, which is always unique and unfolding from the here and now and so yeah, I really in my journey, have called upon many traditions, Buddhism and Christian mysticism and nature connection as well as Taoism, to support my journey of waking up.

Alex Ferrari 10:35
So you spoke about going into the mountains and finding and finding a man that helped you on your path you just discovered him. Please tell me this story, because it sounds very Kill Bill. Sounds very Kill Bill, or very, you know, Shaolin monk, you know from from my days watching kung fu films when I was a kid, it sounds like a young man's dream is to go off into the mountains and find a Master who will teach you the ways. So tell me, what was that like?

George Thompson 11:08
Yeah. I mean, it did actually happen to me, and I didn't really ever watch any kung fu films. I didn't do any martial arts. It was literally as arbitrary as you know, being anxious and in my time of crisis, I had written in my diary in university two years previously, when I'd watched some monks doing some back flips. I wrote my diary go join a monastery. It was as arbitrary as that, and then I was looking at that entry, and I was confused and anxious. I was like, okay, obviously you need to do something meditation. I've heard about that. That's probably good for me. And I was choosing, yes. I was like, right? I'm going to just go to just go to China, and I'm going to learn kung fu in a monastery. So I turn up at this place called the Wudang mountains, which is this awesome collection of temples and monasteries and Kung Fu schools and Tai Chi schools, all on top of a mountain. It's the birthplace of Tai Chi, the birthplace of Wudang kung fu. And I arrive at this temple called purple cloud temple with a swirly roof. The big courtyard, there's a monk sweeping the floor to her say, ni hao, Kung Fu. She's just like, Excuse me. Like, wabu Dong. Like, I don't understand what you're saying. I was like, Yeah, Kung Fu, Kung Fu. And she's like, just having none of it. So I was like, Okay, well, try again. So there's another monk walking with carrying tea, and I go after saying, ni hao, Kung Fu. Nothing again. She's just not giving me anything. I then asked the locals, like, is this a kung fu monastery? And they say, No, it's not. It's just a normal monastery. It's like, there's, it's not a kung fu monastery. I had done my research badly. It wasn't even one to begin with. And I was like, Okay, well, and it also turned out it was a female only monastery. So this is just even funnier.

Alex Ferrari 12:50
Really bad, really bad research.

George Thompson 12:53
Yeah. So then I was like, turn to Plan B. If I can't learn in a monastery, I'll learn in a concrete school. Ask the locals to help me, and one of them volunteered as my guide and took me to this school where I found this master called Master goo. Had a ponytail, goatee, joyful smile, and he introduced himself in English. He happened to be the only master fluent in English in the whole mountain range. And he said to me, George, I'm not a kung fu master. I teach Tai Chi, but I'd be willing to teach you if you'd be willing to be my student. And I had to kind of take some time to like, request that, because I was, you know, imagine myself breaking blocks with my fists and becoming a karate kid and then Tai Chi. In my ignorance, I was like, Isn't that for older people? But I tried it and fell in love with it. Was very grateful for Master goose generosity and energy, finding my master and and his guidance, and then, yeah, that began the journey into Taoism and Tai Chi and meditation and Qigong and all these beautiful practices that I've since dedicated my life to sharing.

Alex Ferrari 13:59
So you, you focus a lot on nature, especially in the film, you focus a lot in nature and the wisdom of nature. Can you explain to me what that was for you, like when you started to How did you even come across that? Was it just being in those mountains? Or how did you under begin to look at nature for guidance, if you will.

George Thompson 14:24
So, yeah, this word Tao the ways of nature and the method of of discovery for the Taoists is observation. So words are helpful. And you know, all traditions, wisdom traditions, worth us. I'll talk about this is that the words are helpful, but they're not the thing itself. They're pointing to an understanding that you have to discover for yourself. And so for the Taoists, observation, observing the Tao the ways of nature, both in the world, outside of us and inside of us, noticing the relationship between the two. So for the Taoist, nature is the core teacher, because. When we observe the patterns and flows of nature, then we begin to understand the classic, you know, as above so below. The Taoist equivalent of that is without going out the door, see the heavenly ways, without looking out the window, see the doubt, see the ways of nature. So this idea that we can form this deeper understanding and this clarity, know thyself from observation. And for me, I have spent a lot of time in the mountains, you know, grateful to be in Scott in in China, but also in Scotland. And for me, when I see like the animals, particularly in the Scottish winters, minus 15 degrees, and I'm there freezing. My toes are freezing off and wearing a big, fluffy jacket. Meanwhile, this reindeer has just got its normal skin on, and they're just chatting to each other, like hanging out as family members. There's snow hairs running around. And I'm beginning to think, like, wow. You know these animals, they're having experiences, seeming emotions like a desire to play and a care for family and fear. And I asked the question, well, if they're intelligent and conscious, then what does that say about my intelligence, my consciousness where I come from? And so that observation helps me find a deeper, more expansive understanding of who I am,

Alex Ferrari 16:20
What was like, what was the one of the biggest lessons you learned from looking at nature for guidance in your own life?

George Thompson 16:28
Comes to mind is trees. I love trees, forests as the elements that I feel most at home in. I love all the elements, but I love to be in a forest. I love to be barefoot in a forest. I'm an unapologetic tree hugger. I like to do my Qigong standing where I literally hug a tree and breathe into it and breathe with it, and to drop into presence with it. And that can sound real, woo, woo, maybe as your Woo, woo, woo, alarm for some people, but I find that as a beautiful, deep practice to be in presence with a tree. And something that it teaches me is this is being. You know, living being shares 50% of our DNA, and so the 50% of the genes that we have trees have as well. That's because we come from the same evolutionary heritage, and they they alone. Recently, they have serotonin, right? The serotonin that affects our mood trees have as well. So when they're in drought, they release serotonin to fortify themselves. So that's pretty amazing. Same chemical molecule. So we are deeply connected with these beings. And like the fact that a tree has been allowed are alive for 200 300 years, it grounds me. So you know, there's parts of my psyche that can panic to like, you know, Can I do the things I want to in this short lifetime? Everything's changing too quickly. I'm not good enough in all these ways. And then breathe with a tree, and it grounds me, slows me down.

Alex Ferrari 17:55
So you mentioned being barefoot in the forest. It sounds to me that that is, there is science behind that. I'm not sure if you're aware of it or not, but there is science behind the barefoot on the ground, which is called grounding, or earthing, where you're actually connecting to the I think it's either not the electric, the electrical charge that the earth is putting out and it actually heals you. It actually heals you. It reduces inflammation. But you're doing a spiritual practice on it as well, so it almost amplifies what you're doing. Have you heard of this? Are you familiar with this?

George Thompson 18:32
Yeah, yeah. And vivo barefoot is, you know, I wear vivo barefoot, barefoot shoes, and met somebody who's been working on these, like, yeah, de ionizing vivo benefits that aren't the rubber souls that kind of disconnect us from that electric field. It's not something I've explored too much, but Yeah, feels like, certainly my felt experience of that is a sense of grounding, and it reminds me of one of the classic phrases of the Taoists. And again, this is found in many traditions of Tao Tong Tiendi Du Guan Gujin, so between heaven and earth, humanity stands and the Tao connects us all. So when we Yeah, remove the kind of the rubber insulation that protects our feet, it's useful, but to remove that and to ground ourselves in the earth, and then to be this living, breathing being that, then, yeah, we're kind of a conduit between the mystery of consciousness and then the grounding of the earth. So, yeah, that's something that supports me.

Alex Ferrari 19:29
You, you mentioned in the Tao, it says to know thyself. Can you really dive into that? Because that is one of those catch phrases that you see in T shirts and, you know, and that kind of posters and stuff like that, almost, almost next to the cat on the on the wire going hang in there, one of those things. But when you look at it at a surface level, it's like, oh, yeah, we have to understand who we are. But on a truly deep level, can you. Explain to everybody what that is, because, from my understanding, when you start to dig into knowing thyself, there's work to be done, there's shadow work, there's there's things that you have that come bubbling up, dramas, things like that, can you kind of dig into that from your perspective and how you actually were able to overcome a lot of those obstacles when you started to investigate yourself.

George Thompson 20:25
For me, the journey is captured in three sentences. To hurt us to be human, we have awesome potential. Practice is the path. So to us to be human, we've already talked about this, and you're like, I would beat myself up for being anxious, and I was uniquely messed up. Nobody could understand me. And then I went to China, read these ancient books and said, Wait a sec. The ancient Chinese struggled as well, and their ideas still land and still resonate, which for me, suggests there's a nature to being human being. And as I have, an inner critic, my underminer is a part of being human. So that journey of Know thyself is when we understand like how the heart works, how our minds work, our consciousness works, our place in the universe, then that's how, through that understanding, we can build compassion for this life. Because compassion is really the core of all of these teachings, meeting this moment with compassion and ease, and that compassion is a natural consequence of understanding. So know thyself, like if I know that, yeah, I've I'm a social creature, and belonging is super important to me. So you know, when I was isolated and alone, then obviously that's going to have an effect on me, and then to have an inner critic that is harsh, but actually trying to keep me safe through thinking through all the things that could go wrong, then I can build compassion to that, remembering, then I've got awesome potential that these teachers, they give us some hope. They're like hope merchants, like you, can do it. Balance is possible, the name of my organization now, peace is possible, that for 1000s of years, every teacher has spoken to our potential. So to hurt us to be human, we've got awesome potential. And practices the path. Some traditions will say, you know, like instant awakening and the light enlightenment is possible. And I hold on to that as a possibility. I don't limit that. But my experience that my life has been this slow but steady and real progress in finding compassion to myself, strengthening myself and my body, finding more clarity as to my life's purpose and meaning. And then the natural consequence of that is this joy and ease and peace and balance that I was seeking at the start.

Alex Ferrari 22:38
What kind of spiritual insights have you received doing this work? Because I imagine were you spiritual prior to walking down this path?

George Thompson 22:47
Grew up atheist.

Alex Ferrari 22:49
Really? So, alright, so as an atheist going down this going down this path, I'm assuming certain things started to show themselves to you which contradicted that story of being an atheist. How did you deal with that? And what actually started to show up that started to shift your perspective on that there is no source, there is no God, there is no anything like that. And when we die, we just go into nothingness to where you are now,

George Thompson 23:21
Yeah, I always had a love of nature and a sense of its mystery, and kind of as Christian growing up that rejected it and became an atheist, had a strong woo woo alarm, which came out earlier, the Woo, woo, woo woo, instinctually, kind of skeptical of anything Spiritual. And then I started my journey understanding, yeah, okay. I have these ways of nature, this Tao, and what I loved about Taoism is that it worked for my scientific instincts. And I still think science is super important as a way of observing, collecting data, seeing how the data compares against, you know, our predictions and what we thought would happen. And there's a limit to knowledge. There's a limit to data. And yeah, the mystery that is at the core of this being, this life, this existence, the fact that there's something instead of nothing, and instead of it being chaotic and unordered, actually, there is so much beauty and order and intelligence and consciousness flowing through every crack of this planet, millions of species of animals that are conscious, having experiences. Then, you know, the plant life certainly intelligent, I would say, conscious as well. And we can explore that and the dominant worldview that dominates our world, atheistic materialism, saying that everything is just matter. It's unconscious stuff that bashes into each other, and over billions of years of evolution, then all of this stuff then created complex life, and that was all random, but it begs the question that's like, Well, how did conscious. Experience like immaterial, unconscious material created conscious experience. Like, how did that happen? And if we run the Take Back, okay, humans, we're conscious. Dogs, yes. Cats, yes. Mice, yeah. Worms. I mean, do they roll up in a ball because it's an automatic biological response, or is it that they're experiencing some sensations and responding instead of reacting. Trees, you know, they one amazing example is acacia trees. They fart to scare off giraffes. You know, when a giraffe is eating them, when a giraffe is eating them, they sense it, and then they release this gas that then tells all the other acacia trees to also release this gas, which is a horrible gas for the giraffes. So then all of the acacia trees in the area are protected. So that's just one example of so many of the intelligence. Now, if we're saying that that's intelligent but not conscious, where did consciousness go? So that is a that's an unexplained miracle. Unconscious matter creates conscious beings. And in philosophy, this is called the hard problem of consciousness. For me, then I I'm a panpsychist. So keep on like, why do we need to say that unconscious material created conscious matter? What about everything? Is energy? Consciousness matter? These are all aspects of energy, and then that connects me with the source, like for my definition of spirituality, is my understanding of something bigger than myself, and the extent to which that understanding is a resource to support me. So resourcing, resourcing. So for me, where the materialist, atheistic worldview would just mean I felt meaningless and had to be cold and analytical and calculating, my spirituality, still grounded in scientific principles, gives me so much more a connection of awe and reverence and sacredness and wonder at this great mystery that I am a part of.

Alex Ferrari 26:59
It sounds to me that you, you found your happiness and your your balance from looking inward then, as opposed to your other view, which was always looking outward of you. Hence, views made me happy, the material things I had made me happy. Everything in the materialistic, atheistic world was outside of you. And when you attach yourself, which is Buddhism, when you attach yourself to things that are outside of you for your happiness, if anything happens to that person or that, not only that, not only those things, but people as well. If you give your power of your happiness away to somebody else or something else, when that thing is gone, you're gone. You have no no anchor anymore in the ocean and but when you look inward, as you've done, the the power so much the well is so much deeper, the the power is so much greater that nothing can really knock you off your pedestal, as if you will, nothing will knock you off the foundation because it's just connected to source. Does that make sense?

George Thompson 28:07
Yeah, beautifully said. And, yeah, centering, centering is one of the key words in the Taoist work. So our physical center, the Dan Tien just below the belly button, you know, the Vitruvian Man, that's where all of the lines intersect, and if I had a super strong finger, that's where I could balance you. And so to come to our physical center, as we do in Tai Chi practice and Qigong practice, is to bring our awareness down to there. You know, so much of our confusion comes from our mind come into the body. Then what I call the spiritual center is, awareness itself, consciousness itself, this beautiful spaciousness within which thoughts and emotions and sensations arise and pass endlessly and exactly as you said, like if we attach to the outside world, we're not even attaching to the outside world. We're attaching to what's happening inside of us, a sensation or a thought. It's like I my other half, like that person completes me, or I'm lonely without anyone in my life. You know that then becomes my reality, of like, who I am, so I need somebody outside of me to fulfill me, and connection is beautiful. Like, that's a great thing to have in our lives. But you know, I've been single for quite a lot of my 20s. And like, there's parts of me, you know, like demanding perfection and like needing to have all of these needs met. And actually, if I can give myself the gift of wholeness in this moment, then that's when I can really enjoy the journey of life. Because the reality is, we're not going to have all of our needs met at all times, and that's that's inevitable to hurts to be human. But what we do have is responsibility, the ability to choose our response, and the words of Victor Frankel, between the stimulus and the response, there is a space, and that space is our freedom and our power. So to engage with that spaciousness means. Means that we don't need to just be reactive playing these old patterns that give us pain. Instead, we can free ourselves.

Alex Ferrari 30:06
You mentioned earlier that you started to read a whole bunch of old books, ancient books, ancient things when you were up in the mountains. What were some of those teachings? And how did you take some of these ancient teachings and apply them to a modern world. Because some, you know, sometimes the old, the old ways, you're like, Ah, that was from, you know, 10,000 or, if not 10,000 but let's say, 1000 years ago. How is that applied to the modern world today? I've also found what you found surprisingly, very well, because the basics of who we are doesn't change a human now is a human it was 1000 years ago. Sure, we have different, you know, exterior issue things and cultural things, but we still want the same things that we wanted 1000 years ago. 2000 Year goes 5000 years ago. So that's why I believe that these teachings hold themselves. But can you, can you give us some examples.

George Thompson 31:01
Yeah, just because it's old doesn't mean it's necessarily true. But if it still hits and it's old, pay attention, because we have a nature, right? We have it like we have a biology, and we have a heart and mind that works in the same way, basically, that it did for a human living 5000 years ago, 10,000 years ago. And, yeah, we have language and technology and a more complex world, but the nervous system is basically the same. So that was what I was really just my wow, like awakening moment was just like, this is an ancient book from two and a half 1000 years ago. I'm some bloke from Bristol in England, and this is waking me up to how I work, and the sense of, for me, reverence from that, it's like, wow, like they've really got it and, you know, not every text has got it all. And it's, you know, using our wisdom as to discern, you know, like, what lands take, what serves, leaves, what does, what doesn't serve. And I'd like to Yeah, just come back to this idea of flow. I think this is every wisdom tradition has a gift to the collective consciousness of humanity. And I think one of the big gifts that Daoism offers is flow, or the terms that the Taoist uses, Wu Wei, Wu Ming, non Wei, being action. Wu wei, non action. But really, non action isn't about doing nothing. And so maybe non forcing would be a better way of saying it. So this agitation in the mind that, you know, we've talked to, and was the start of my journey, that is a lot of energy wasted in the mind of like, thinking through every potential that can go wrong. You know, I've had so many challenges in my life, most of which have never come to pass. Mark Twain. So that is the human mind, right? It does that, but it's unnecessary, and we can thankfully train our mind and our nervous system to calm and to trust. So Wu Wei is non forcing, like, if you think about a sunflower, then it has this big, heavy head, and it's not floppy. It's not rolled up on the ground. That stem holding it up has some rigidity, has some strength, but it doesn't hold any more force than it needs to. So can we bring that energy into our lives as well? And for me, like how I've applied that is, notice, let go, trust. Notice, let go trust. Notice, let go trust. Notice the painful thinking, the stories that are causing me agitation. Let him go, come back to this moment. Trust. Sometimes those thoughts are helpful and I act upon them, but 90% of the time they don't serve me notice let go, trust.

Alex Ferrari 33:45
I was when you said sunflower, the first thing that came to my mind is, in our conversation regards to nature being conscious, there's actually been studies to see how conscious plants truly are, and one of the studies I saw was they actually put a seed, and they could see where the roots were going to go. One side of the of the of the the enclosure was water, and the other side was not. It was underneath the underneath the soil. And you actually saw this, the roots start to go towards the water. It wasn't touching. It didn't see but it was there. So it actually instinctually knew somehow that that was where to go. But then it gets even more interesting. They did another experiment where they put the sound of water and nothing, and it went towards the sound of water, not even water. It was fast. So you gotta if that's happening, how the hell did a seed know to go towards the sound of water? It doesn't have ears. So how does that work? And they did it again and again again. It always was the same thing. It's fascinating, isn't it?

George Thompson 34:59
Mm. Um, yeah, and just the countless examples, like, anywhere you look, I mean, it's just magic, you know. And you know, we're so busy managing our lives that we forget the great mystery that we are a part of. That's John O'Donoghue. And, yeah, that sense of reverence someone I love is, is kultner. Keltner forgot his first name, who talks about awe and wonder all walks. And so often we find more awe and wonder when we walk somewhere new, and to just have the intention of an awe walk where we don't have the technology, and we open our heart and minds to what we can find. And I, if I'm with friends. You know, we'll be in the ground getting our nails dirty, rummaging around, finding some mushroom or something like that. And just the wow that can come from that something beautiful about awe and wonder is that it predates language. So all around the world, Aura and wonder sounds the same. Ah, and even monkeys. Jane Goodall, such a beautiful example, observed chimpanzees looking at a waterfall and doing these rhythmic shaking dances, making noises that they wouldn't normally make, altogether. And Jane Goodall made the conclusion that this is the chimpanzees having their own experience of or in wonder that's

Alex Ferrari 36:21
so beautiful. The title of your film is the subtle art of losing yourself. Some say that losing yourself is the path to finding yourself. Is that? Do? Would you agree?

George Thompson 36:33
Yeah. And for our society, that's a bit of a scary concept, losing myself, careful. I want to lose yourself. Yeah, hey, struggling as it is, and yet there is something in that, you know, so, like, as we've talked about these so this consciousness, how this mind works, is, yeah, we have this, my understanding of it, the sensor and the storyteller. So the sensor is this array of sensations and feelings that give us this feeling of being. And then there's the storyteller that observes what we experience, and then, using thoughts, language, images, narrates and tell stories about who we are. And so that storyteller is essential. It's awesome. Like, my name is George, and I live in Bristol, live in London, and my love language is vegan brownies. And, you know, I have all these stories about, you know, what I'm good at and what I'm bad what I'm bad at, and that's essential for me to live. And yet, if I was born in a different country, I'd have a different name, I'd have a different story, I wouldn't be called George. And so there's nothing intrinsically George about me, that identity has been created from the thoughts that pop into my head. And so there is also, then the potential that I don't have to have a story. If I create my own story, then it is also possible that I can experience myself directly, to lose myself, to lose my normal sense of self, the narrated sense of self, and to come into presence. This is trainable, and this is what most meditation practices offer, is the training to be able to quiet in their mind and to experience consciousness or presence directly. And one of the main ways that has supported me to reach that ability to lose myself and joyfully rest in presence, as opposed to that being a scary thing is to be in nature, walking in nature, being quiet in nature, and to merge, merge with this great mystery. And then so doing, I find myself find a great, much bigger, more nourishing, beautiful, inspiring sense of who I really am

Alex Ferrari 38:37
That is so beautiful, because when you sing to to change the story. Tell your own story. That's terrifying, because the story that we have been told since we were born the programming. I call it the programming. It's the first seven years you're programmed by your parents, by your you know, by your society, by your culture, by the country you're in, and all of that stuff that is the story you're told. It takes someone extremely brave to then erase that story or change that story in a way that makes sense for them, because just like you, you when you mentioned it in passing, you're like, Yeah, I was kind of Christian. It kind of raised Christian, but not really, and I just rejected it. You already were showing signs of strength, even though you weren't even aware that you were doing it at that point yet. Because she was like, that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not just gonna drink the drink the Kool Aid, as they say. Yeah, exactly. So you started, you started to to challenge that. But can you give any advice to someone listening right now who is so ingrained in their story, yet open to change, because they're watching this conversation and they're open to change, but they're like, but how can I reject the story my parents, who loved me, gave me? Me, or my friends gave me, or my community gave me, or my religion gave me. How can I break free from that to find my own path while not destroying the either the people I love or the story of the people that I love? Because that's it's easy. If you got, you know, horrible parents, you it's easy to let go of that, but when you got loving parents, who they're just doing the best job they can. I'm a parent. I know we're just trying to figure it out, guys, it's no book. We give them the best we can. But if that doesn't flow with you, how can you break free from that? Do you have any advice?

George Thompson 38:53
Firstly, just celebrating that intention, yeah, to turn towards what's here, these experiences, this body, this lifetime, and to turn towards it with curiosity. Because actually, it's quite a radical act. Like, if I'm hurting right now, our society says, numb yourself out. Go watch some Netflix. Go eat some food. Go to do some shopping. Don't look within. So if you do look within like that's that's a beautiful and actually radical act politically, because you know, to turn towards our pain and realize it's not the outside world creating it, but our relationship to the world, our relationship to ourselves. That's when we take our power back and then to be gentle on the journey. Because the most famous line from the data Jing, a journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step or another few ones in that chapter is a tree wider than a man's embrace started as a single seed, a seed that could hear water, then a a skyscraper, more than eight stories high, started as a single brick. So gently, gently and yeah, like with our upbringing, there's parts of our parents that were really supportive and loving, and for almost all of us, there were parts that were painful, and there was stories from our society that empowered us, and there were stories that held us back and limited us. So the wisdom journey and waking up is you can choose. You create your reality. You create your story. You know, you create your experience of your reality. So take your power and find the stories that serve you. Let go of those that don't, and be really compassionate and gentle on the journey. Because actually, instead of punishing ourselves, I'm going to change everything. I'm going to forget all of that which used to give me pain is actually, in some ways, running away. And really the compassion journey is that we, our heart, has the capability to meet the 10,000 sorrows, the 10,000 joys. We can do it. It takes time, and it takes practice, and it takes resourcing and taking that journey real slow, real gentle.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Do you also have any practical advice for people who are anxious, who are have a problem with anxiety and confusion, and they feel lost? There seems to be so many people who feel lost in this world. And I think, as we've been talking, just my first answer that comes into my head is like, because you're associated, you're attaching your happiness to things outside of you, and you're not looking in. You either afraid not to look in. You don't want to deal with what's not looking and your brain's going to tell you, I'm assuming, in your journey, your brain told you that little wizard that pops up, yeah, the underminer. I'm assuming when you went down this path, it was yelling constantly. This is ridiculous. Do you think you're a Shaolin monk? What is wrong with you? Go back to go back to England, like, what is happening to you? I'm assuming there was this, this, this voice, which I think we all, we all have that voice. How did you overcome that? And after you tell me that, what's your relationship with the underminer today? Because he's not gone. He never leaves. He's always there,

George Thompson 43:55
Absolutely, yeah, you know, for me, there's, there's a fundamental yin yang pairing, that of being and doing action, non action, work, rest, and so we can take that approach to our healing. So part of the journey is taking really small steps to create some momentum in our lives. So maybe instead of, like, I'm so anxious I can't do any exercise. So what's the smallest single step you could do? I'm going to put my shoes on. I'm going to step outside once. I'm going to take another step, going to take another step suddenly. Then you've got some momentum, then maybe you're going to enjoy that walk, celebrate that walk, take those little micro steps, and really celebrate because, you know, the anxious part of our psyche, and it's just a part will damp any celebrations down, because it wants to make sure you've thought through all of the worst possible scenarios. Again, being compassionate to that is part of being human. So the doing is often what we talk about in our society. What is missing often is. The being. And for me, that's the spiritual dimension. Is to for me, ground myself, and, yeah, the Tao for me, or whatever word works for you, source mystery, God, and to know that, you know, it's just not me, small George, with all these perceived flaws that's working against this big, scary world. Instead, I'm an aspect of the whole. I have all of this resilience built into me because I've got the DNA of millions of years of ancestors that have survived to make me here. You know, like radical meditation to do is to imagine your your parents with a loving hand on your shoulders. Imagine their parents with loving hands on their shoulders. Go back all the way to the start of time. See what you experience with that. Because, yeah, that's all of us have an ancestor that goes all the way back to the start of the universe, because there's no separation. That's a scientific reality. So that then is a resource, resource to help ground the anxiety, spaciousness is another key word for me. So it's, you know, anxiety is here. It's a part of me. It's not I am anxious. There's a part of me that's anxious. It's not I'm overwhelmed. There's a part of me telling me I'm overwhelmed. Okay, there's also, you know, a raised heart rate, clench in the stomach, tension in the throat, and, yeah, like, even on Monday, my first kind of anxious day for, for quite a while, I had after payday for my team, you know, so like, and I was tired and under resourced, and then suddenly that that was a, you know, like a painful day. And you can't stop the waves, but you can learn to serve, so I have built more compassion to to where I am. And so yeah, the underminer is still with me, but he's a friend now. He's an advisor, and when he gets a bit harsh, I'm like, Okay, what do you really need here? Tell me get let me know what the need is, and then I can sort that out. Because you don't need to be running the ship anymore. You don't need to be driving the bus. I've got you. And so then, yeah, join me be an advisor. That's how I now relate to that part

You've you've mentioned, you know, we've been talking about Taoism and the and the Tao Te Ching and these kind of ideas of the way a lot of people look at Taoism as more of a philosophy. It's definitely not a religion. It's definitely not a religion, to my understanding, it's a philosophy. But one thing I'm a little shady on, not shady on, but confused about, is that, what is the spirituality of Taoism, or the Tao what is the spiritual? Because there isn't, you know, there's no Zeus, there's no Osiris, there is no, you know, you know Michelangelo's or it was a Da Vinci, one of the two. Yeah, the finger with the other guy, the old guy with the white beard, who's white, of course, sitting on, sitting on a throne somewhere in heaven, on a cloud, you know, passing judgment. There doesn't seem to be any of that in Taoism. Was one of the reasons why I actually really loved Taoism when I was on my early search. It was one of the first philosophies that came across that really started to make sense to me. So what is the spirituality of Taoism?

Yeah, we've got a few different approaches. So we've got just to compare it. We got the materialist approach that we talked about, everything's random, mechanical processes unconscious, and then somehow, out of that conscious life emerges. But that, how that actually happens has never been explained. And then you have like the deity, the higher power in the sky that created the universe, created everything and is superior to us. And depending on the story human beings, we are a superior species. This planet was given to us. Then you could say this The Hindu approach, or like the New Age spiritual approach, which is, there is a we're in a divine universe, and consciousness animates us. So there's like a spark of Spirit within us and within animals and but like like matter itself is, is not conscious. Well, you know, depends on your on your view and understanding of that. But still, like this idea of like divinity and giving thanks and devotion to divinity, which is different, but connected to the world. Then there's the Taoist approach. And I think the best way to understand the Taoist approach is the word sir ran. So that word sir Ran is the word for nature made up of two characters, self ran. So sir ran. Self, so, so So the word for nature is that which comes into being by itself, itself. So so the spontaneity of natures captures in the very word for nature. So for the Taoists their spirituality, they see the universe like an organism, self organizing, like in the forest, there isn't somebody. With a clipboard saying, right? Oak tree a growing wad meter this year because he a very naughty boy. And Robin, you're only singing a D sharp for the rest of the week. There isn't somebody running the show. It's self organizing. And so they saw that, you know, they saw there wasn't a conductor in nature. Everything was spontaneous. And so then they continued that, understanding that then the universe is like a big organism. Everything interconnected in it, the inter being, and for them, because there isn't any separation between consciousness and matter, it's all energy and the Tao in a predating even form. So that this potential at the start of the universe before the Big Bang to help everything get going. You know, the Tao was there as well. So for them, then it's this inclusive organism. I can never say that word, organismic understanding of the universe, where then their divinity, their sacredness, is found in all things.

Alex Ferrari 50:59
Very, very good definition, sir, very good definition. It's, it's, it's a, it is, it is a system that'll that needs someone who can kind of flow. It's not, if you need something to hold on to and grab like the monkey in the gourd, yeah, you're not going to find it here. You know, a lot of religion does that. A lot of religion gives you something very practical to hold on to, with rituals and places to meet and so on. But this seems to like, no, no, no, you are literally, as as Bruce Lee once said, be water, my friend. You're constantly flowing with the universe, and it's a little scary when you're out there flowing, but once you understand the power that's within you, it's as natural as a robin singing a D sharp in the forest.

George Thompson 51:59
Can I sing you a song on that, a short song. You don't need to know the way, the way knows the way. You don't have to plan the way, trust the way, feel the way, the way knows. The way knows. Way knows the way,

Alex Ferrari 52:25
Oh, you get the golden ticket. You're going to Hollywood. You're Yes, that's awesome.

George Thompson 52:34
What was the Tao equivalent of Hollywood? More nourishing version,

Alex Ferrari 52:38
Trust me, I was there for a long time, I completely understand it. Is there, finally, is there one message that you want people listening to take away from not only this conversation, but from the art of the subtle art of losing yourself as well the film,

George Thompson 52:58
What I'm passionate about is, firstly, our potential. So balance is possible for you, for me, for humanity, and just to keep going like you know, there's parts of us that can despair, our own mental health and what's happening in the world, and remembering that they're parts, and there's also parts that can have hope and to believe in growth and change, and so to nourish those parts and to hold on to them, because it's super important. Then secondly, you know, for me, is like as my journey of understanding my connection to the universe, to realize like self development is really not giving justice to that which we are a part of. It's not just about me, about me meditating and creating all these good vibes. But really, that is important and a foundation upon which I can enjoy my life and to serve resiliently. But then, so, yeah, have this energy of service. How can I contribute? For me, that's what my spirituality takes me to an energy of service to just do a little bit of contribution, whether it's big or small, and then system change. You know, we can blame ourselves like I'm anxious, lonely, depressed, well, like, yeah, you live in a society that's deeply alienated, where it's really hard to make new friends, and the social media hacking our psychology to sell our attention to corporate advertisers that we blame ourselves, right? So it's bigger than us. And so then a political consciousness comes into me. It's like, well, you know, with that understanding of our potential and our interconnection, that we are nature, we are a part of it, and all of this consumption, which is supposedly meeting our needs around, you know, buying the nice house and buying the nice stuff. It's nice to have a nice house and a nice stuff. But where are we going with all of this and with clearly affecting our ability to live on this planet through over consumption, and so what about the radical act of empowered moderation to actually say that i. Got enough, and I want to create a community and a society in a world where I'm feeling the richness of the present moment. How would the world change? And so that's a message that I hope can land with people. It's not a scarcity or like, Oh, you shouldn't consume because you're a bad person, but like, Yeah, this is a gift of this lifetime, and let's enjoy it and support each other to really enjoy it.

Alex Ferrari 55:24
Beautifully said, my friend. Beautifully said, now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all of my guests, what is your definition of living a fulfilled life?

George Thompson 55:31
My definition of living a fulfilled life is to flow, to grow, to enjoy, to love.

Alex Ferrari 55:40
If if you had a chance to go back in time and speak to little George, what advice would you give him?

George Thompson 55:44
I'd give him a big hug and say you're right, mate, you're good. I got you. And yeah, like, you've got all these beautiful parts of joy, there's also sadness and worry, and you're all right, mate, you got it.

Alex Ferrari 55:57
How do you define God or Source?

George Thompson 56:00
The mystery.

Alex Ferrari 56:01
What is love?

George Thompson 56:02
What is love, baby? Don't hurt me. But for me, I feel love when I'm in connection. And so we could say that love is connection. And one beautiful thing that we learned from our journey of waking up is that everything in the universe is connected. So if love equals connection and the universe equals connection, therefore the universe equals love.

Alex Ferrari 56:24
If you, if you could ask God or Source one question, what would it be?

George Thompson 56:29
What first came up was a phrase that I love is, stop asking. Why? Start saying, Wow, where the Taoists they they don't need to ask questions, and they can just be with the mystery. And Alan Watts, classic comes to mind is that eventually get to heaven, and you ask God, why is the grass green? And God says, the chlorophyll.

Alex Ferrari 57:03
Simple as that. And finally, and finally, what is the ultimate purpose of life?

George Thompson 57:08
I feel this life is a gift, and to really enjoy this unique embodiment, this unique lifetime. There's nowhere to go, no place to arrive, but to enjoy the dance and to enjoy the ride.

Alex Ferrari 57:22
And where can people find out more about you, and all the amazing work you and balance is possible is doing?

George Thompson 57:28
Firstly, just yeah, a lot of gratitude for you, Alex, and I really sense for your Yeah, your journey and your depth of these questions and everything that you've done and the people that you've reached. So they're really grateful to be in conversation with you, and yeah, these beautiful viewers and listeners. Yeah, what a gift for your presence and for me, yeah, the subtle art of losing yourself. Type that in on YouTube. It's 45 minutes. It's my latest film. Had 850,000 people watching it now, which is so exciting, and I'd love your support and sharing the film. If it resonates with you. Stick it on one evening. I also run events, uh, retreats, and also Taoist wellness online is the biggest Tai Chi school in the world now, with my Tai Chi master, master goo, and it's how we fund me and the team. And yeah, we're on this mission to inspire balance for people and planet. So any contributions are really welcome, and you get so much learning as a consequence.

Alex Ferrari 58:22
And, of course, Subtle Art Of Losing Yourself is also on Next Level Soul TV, which absolutely as well. Yeah, so I'm so excited to share it. It's been doing extremely well. People watching it a lot. So it's, it's constantly in the top 10, sir. So it's a good that's a good people. People really, really love the film. It's a beautiful film, and I tell I suggest anyone who wants to find a little balance in their life to definitely check it out. And do you have any parting messages for the audience, my friend?

George Thompson 58:52
Keep stepping journey for 1000 miles starts with a single step.

Alex Ferrari 58:55
Fair enough, George, it's been such a pleasure talking to you, my friend. Thank you for sharing your journey and your story with us, and I hope that this helps people around the world, help them on their journey, or at least put that first step of their journey. This hopefully will open their minds to new possibilities, that if you could do this, other people can do it as well. So I appreciate you and all the love and energy that you're putting out into the world helping awaken this planet, my friend. So thank you.

George Thompson 59:24
Thank you, Alex.