Atheist Doctor’s ASTONISHING Discovery – Near Death Experiences (NDE) are REAL with Dr. Eben Alexander

In the dance of existence, there come moments that challenge the very fabric of our understanding. On today’s episode, we welcome Dr. Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon who has peered beyond the veil of life and returned with profound insights. His journey, sparked by a near-death experience (NDE), unveils a tapestry of consciousness that transcends the physical realm.

Dr. Alexander, once a staunch materialist and neuroscientist, embarked on an extraordinary journey when he slipped into a coma due to severe bacterial meningitis. Prior to this, his life was entrenched in the scientific dogma that the brain is the epicenter of consciousness. He taught at prestigious institutions like Harvard Medical School, firmly grounded in the belief that material science held all the answers.

However, his near-death experience shattered this paradigm. In his words, “I was certain that science is the pathway to truth… that is false.” During his seven-day coma, Dr. Alexander ventured through realms he describes as more real than our earthly existence. Stripped of his earthly memories and identity, he found himself in an “Earthworm’s Eye View,” a realm of primordial, dark consciousness. Yet, he was soon guided by a brilliant light and a divine melody into a “Gateway Valley,” a breathtakingly beautiful domain filled with love and interconnectedness.

In this realm, Dr. Alexander encountered a guide—a beautiful woman who conveyed a powerful message: “You are deeply loved and cherished forever, you have nothing to fear.” This woman, whose identity he later discovered to be his birth sister who had died years before he knew of her existence, epitomized the profound connections that transcend our physical lives. These experiences affirmed to him that our souls endure beyond physical death and that love is the binding force of the universe.

One of the most striking elements of Dr. Alexander’s story is his assertion that consciousness is not produced by the brain but is instead filtered through it. This idea, he explains, aligns with a more “quantum-informed version of understanding consciousness,” where the brain acts as a transceiver, channeling a more profound, universal consciousness. His recovery, which defied all medical odds, serves as a testament to the profound capabilities of the mind and spirit.


  1. Consciousness Transcends Physical Death: Dr. Alexander’s NDE demonstrates that consciousness is not confined to the physical brain. It is a profound, enduring force that transcends physical existence, providing hope and meaning beyond material life.
  2. The Healing Power of Love: Central to Dr. Alexander’s experience is the revelation that love is the fundamental essence of the universe. This love not only connects us but also possesses immense healing power, guiding souls through life and beyond.
  3. Interconnectedness of All Beings: His journey highlighted the interconnectedness of all life, emphasizing that we are all part of a grand, interwoven tapestry. This understanding urges us to live with compassion, recognizing the impact of our actions on others.

In this profound conversation, we have Dr. Eben Alexander who emphasizes the importance of meditation in connecting with this deeper reality. His daily practice using sacred acoustics, a form of binaural beat brainwave entrainment, allows him to revisit the states of consciousness he encountered during his NDE. He describes these meditations as moments of profound connection, where the barriers of time and space dissolve, offering glimpses into the true nature of existence.

Dr. Alexander’s insights challenge us to reconsider the nature of consciousness and our place in the universe. He advocates for a shift from materialistic views to a more holistic understanding that integrates spirituality and science. This paradigm shift, he believes, is crucial for addressing the existential crises facing humanity, from environmental destruction to societal discord.

As we navigate the complexities of modern life, Dr. Alexander’s journey offers a beacon of hope and a reminder of our profound potential for growth and healing. By embracing the interconnectedness of all beings and the enduring power of love, we can transcend the limitations of our material existence and move towards a more harmonious, enlightened state of being.

Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Eben Alexander.

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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 032

Alex Ferrari 0:09
I'd like to welcome to the show, Dr. Eben Alexander. How you doing Eben?

Dr. Eben Alexander 0:12
I'm doing great Alex, thanks so much for having me on.

Alex Ferrari 0:16
Thank you so much for for coming on the show. I'm excited to talk to you. I have been enjoying your new book, Living in a mindful universe. And I I've, I've been fascinated by your work for a little while now. And I wanted to know, before we get into your near death experiences and your work, what was your life like prior to your near death experience?

Dr. Eben Alexander 0:40
Well, you know, I was living a very good life. I mean, I was a neurosurgeon, I'd followed in my father's footsteps. In pursuing that field. I spent more than 15 years teaching at Harvard Medical School. As an associate professor. I also taught at University of Virginia and University of Massachusetts, all in neurosurgery. So I was I was leading a very good life, you know, I had a wife and two wonderful sons. And the day before I went to coma, I had no clue what was about to unfold in my life. But, you know, I really have no complaints. I was, you know, a conventional, kind of reductive materialist neuroscientist, as much as I wanted to believe much of what I'd heard growing up in a Methodist Church and my father, although he was scientific, he was the head of a neurosurgical training program. He was also very spiritual, and believed in the power of prayer. And he used that regularly in his work. But, you know, like so many of the who grew up in the 60s and 70s, I was certain that science is the pathway to truth. And I made the mistake of thinking that an old disproven Newtonian deterministic version of materialist science was a pathway to truth and that is false. There is a much richer quantum informed version of understanding consciousness. And I've spent the last 13 years since my coma, working with other scientists around the world, pursuing that. So it's, it's an extraordinary gift. But yeah, before the day before my coma, I had no inkling what was about to to unfold across my bow.

Alex Ferrari 2:21
Yeah, exactly. So would you consider yourself atheist prior, and that really not as much?

Dr. Eben Alexander 2:27
I think the best way to put it is I struggled a lot with my faith, you know, the long career and neurosurgery left me really confused about how conscious awareness could survive the death of the brain and body. I really just couldn't see how that could happen. And of course, as I explained in my book, Proof of Heaven, which is the first book I wrote about all of this, you know, I was sent into a dark night of the soul for eight years before my coma, that has to do with the fact that I'm adopted, that's a huge part of the backstory and is very relevant to major discussions of my indie and its aftermath and understanding. But turns out as I described, and proof of heaven, in February of 2000, when I was, you know, I had long ago, decades earlier, excepted my birth mother was not looking for me. So I quit writing letters to the children's home. But then it was a school project for my older son, Evan, the fourth, he was in sixth grade, in Dover, Massachusetts, and he had some family genealogy project. And he said, Dad, we just have to have more information from your birth family. So I wrote another letter to the children's home. And this is where I got the shocker. And I explained it all in the book in detail, but in a two minute phone call, I got a call from a social worker that shocked me, right to the core. She basically said, your birth parents got married. I never ever had remotely suspected that I'd always heard they kind of went their separate ways and thought I was just looking for my birth mother thought my birth father was totally out of the picture. But they got married. And not only that they'd had three children, but that the youngest sister had passed over two years earlier, that would have been in 1998. And according to the social worker, they were still grieving her loss. So it was not a good time for me to come back in their lives. Turns out that really has nothing to do with the actual communications. But given the kind of obscuration of all this with North Carolina laws, trying very hard to prevent reunions of adoptees with their birth parents. It was a real uphill battle and that perceived rejection from my birth mothers what sent me into that dark night of the soul. I stopped saying prayers. My kid, two boys at night I stopped taking them to church I basically became very agnostic, I would say, not totally atheistic, but just like, how can it be and that just sent me into darkness. So, turns out again, a huge part of the story explained in the book is that I did meet my birth family about a year before my coma. And that was absolutely crucial for the unfolding of all the events of the coma journey, and the understanding of the aftermath. But needless to say, my coma journey showed me very clearly how consciousness can survive the death of the brain and body. And not only that, it showed me a very rich realm of kind of interconnection, and, you know, one that fully in some ways kind of violated a lot of my religious preconceptions, even though I'd kind of abandoned them in the year 2000. With that rejection, you know, I'd never entertain thoughts and things like reincarnation, but my Indy he showed me very clearly that our souls come back again and again, that it would be foolish to think that all that soul work could be accomplished in one incarnation. And of course, then I had to do all the heavy duty homework into the scientific evidence for reincarnation, to start to realize the bigger picture. But what emerges from all of this is just a much grander vision of the nature of reality that is perfectly aligned with modern science, and a very refreshing kind of viewpoint to the world at large. But it also indicates we have a responsibility for our choices. And you know, we're bound together through this force of love that so many indie ears have discovered. And yet you don't necessarily see that the way we act in these bodies in this lifetime, these lifetimes. So that's where we all need to learn some deep lessons about this, that were the tip of the spear of those lessons being near death experiences and things like life reviews.

Alex Ferrari 6:42
Now, so let's discuss a little bit about your near death experience. What exactly happened when you when you fell into a coma?

Dr. Eben Alexander 6:47
The most important thing to point out is there's one anomaly in my case that's atypical for indies, and that is that I was amnesic. I had no memory whatsoever for Eben Alexander's life. I had no words, no language, none of those religious preconceptions of Eben Alexander, none of the scientific knowledge of Eben Alexander, everything was wiped clean, it was an empty slate. And it took me months to really understand why that would be. I mean, I came to realize, of course, indies are always tailored for the individual to help answer their deep and profound soul questions. And that's why I think mine took took the role that it did, but it involved that necessity of the amnesia. Now, very briefly, I'll tell you that the experience that I've described in great detail and many talks that are out there on the internet that also in the book, Proof of Heaven, and the follow up books map of heaven and living in a mindful universe. But the journey itself in this amnesic state began in the earthworms I view very primitive course unresponsive around that seemed to go on for ages. But I was rescued from that by a slowly spinning white light that came packaged with a perfect musical melody. And that ushered up like a wormhole into this brilliant Ultra real gateway Valley. Now the gateway Valley had many earth like features. I was a speck of awareness on a butterfly wing, there was this lush, incredible kind of meadow surrounded by forest down below us. Lush plant life, buds, blossoms, flowers, all of this very richly dynamic, alive, no sign of any death or decay. I remember 1000s of beings down in this meadow, lots of joy and merriment and dancing and festivities, all being fueled, because up above are these hooping orbs of angelic choirs that were emanating these chants, anthems hymns that we just thunder through my awareness. Another crucial feature of that stage of the journey was I wasn't alone, there was a beautiful young woman on the butterfly wing with me and those who've read proof of having realized that the very end of the book four months after awakening from coma, I actually discovered the identity of that beautiful woman, but at the time, I didn't know who she was, but her message to me and it was delivered telepathically in this rich kind of emotional identity of communication. You are deeply loved and cherished forever, you have nothing to fear you are cared for. I think that was kind of the ultimate message I was to bring back to this world, that and everything else about, you know, being able to have this when my brain was documented to have such destruction that I could that brain could not have made any kind of dream or hallucination. And that's all confirmed in a case report on my medical records that came out 10 years after my coma by three physicians not involved in my care, that case report. It's in the Journal of Nervous and Mental disease September 2018. But they make it very, very clear that my brain was was far too damaged from the all the data, neurologic data of my illness, to have come up with anything in terms of phenomenal experience, much less the most robust, meaningful, detailed, ultra real experience I've ever been through in my life. Now it turns out thought that was a stepping stone as we say, Gateway Valley, to higher and higher levels. And I remember seeing all of four dimensional spacetime collapsing down, then all of that spiritual realm, including a different cause causal ordering that I call deep time very important to understand. Earth time is only kind of a shared consensus, time flow. But ultimately, in the spiritual realm, there's a more kind of fundamental marker of progression of soul growth and evolution of consciousness that occurs in deep time. But in the next phase of my journey, all of that collapse down to and to another wormhole that was engendered by the music of the angelic choirs. I ascended into the core realm, the core was infinite inky blackness, but filled to overflowing with a divine healing love of that creator god source. I mean, that's what indie ears prophets and mystics have encountered. For 1000s of years across all belief systems in these journeys, of it shows there's more to the universe than just the physical world. And that's exactly what I bathed in. I mean, that beautiful ocean of love is something that any indie IR comes back and realizing there's nothing to fear about death, it's really kind of that returning to source and that beautiful oneness. And anyway, I cycled through these regions multiple times, I could use the memory of the music itself to conjure up these various portals between levels. But I was always told in the core will teach you many things, but you'll be going back, you're not here to stay. And there came a time when that was true. And I tried to remember the musical notes, the melody, to conjure up that light portal that took me from the earth or my view up into the gateway Valley, and it wouldn't happen. And that was towards the very end of the journey. That's when I saw 1000s of beings going off into the distance, heads bowed, some holding candles, his murmuring energy coming from them. And the surprise of that was, I was now back in this murkiest early realm, the earth for my view. And yet, I still felt the incredible sense of love and connection, and spiritual home of all those beings around me and my writings. When I wrote it up weeks later, I said, that was the power of prayer. That was that was what I was sensing from all those beings. And it was helping to guide me back to this world. There were six faces I saw at the very end. And they're important because they were vertical time anchors. There were a people, family and friends who were in the ICU in the last 24 hours of coma. And for all the elaborate reasons, I go into detail in the book to explain it. But they showed me that the vast majority of the coma journey which seemed to go on for months or years, I mean an extraordinary journey, even though it happened in seven Earth days in my time in coma. But that return, finally, coming back to this world was the sixth face that I saw as a 10 year old boy, and it turns out it was my son bond, I did not recognize him. My amnesia was still absolutely preponderant in this in this journey. But his pleading with me he'd been outside the room, where the doctors held the family meeting on day seven of coma where I had not been making any progress of 10. They estimate a 10% chance of survival early in week 2% At the end of the week, no chance of recovery. And that's why they recommended stopping the antibiotics bond overheard that conversation came running down the hallway realizing now is much worse than what he'd been told. And he pulled open my eyelids when I looking over there when down there neither pupil working. Anybody in medicine knows that's a horrible picture. I promise you I did not see him with my eyes hearing with my ears, but he's pleading with me, Daddy, you're going to be okay, Daddy, you're going to be okay. I didn't understand the words, but the emotional engagement and the pleading is what got through and that is what impelled me to come back to this world. Even though I had no idea what I was coming back to. When I did opening my eyes and that ICU room. My mother, my sisters, my son's at the bedside, I had no idea who these beings were, the amnesia was still absolutely active. But the amnesia resolved quickly words and language came back over hours and days childhood memory over days and weeks. All my semantic knowledge physics, cosmology, neuroscience over two months. And in the book Living in a mindful universe, we go into a lot of detail about the importance of that part of the discussion. In that many neurosurgeons are finally getting to a point of realizing, you know that long term memories do not seem to be stored in the brain at all. Out of the million plus craniotomy. We've done brain resections. Over the last century, there's never been a case of long term memories being removed with any part of the brain being removed. It's a very important point that we explain it in living in a mindful universe, especially in that appendix on memory in the brain. It's kind of the last nail in the coffin of materialist neuroscience, that memory is not stored there. But of course, we also realize now that the brain serves as a filter. It's not the producer of consciousness, but it allows primordial consciousness. And so that's where the whole discussion from a scientific perspective gets very, very interesting. But I've spent the 13 years since my coma, trying to make sense of this journey in a way that helps me explain it. And that has also involved an intense program of meditation an hour to a day, using sacred acoustics. binaural beat Brainwave Entrainment for their very deep meditation to help develop my relationship with much of what I first discovered within my MBE.

Alex Ferrari 15:33
Now, with your meditations, because I'm a heavy meditator, do I do an hour to a day as well, I always find that when I go into my meditations, it is a, it's almost like a window into connecting with with that, for lack of a better term, the other side connecting with source in a way we do it when we go to sleep. And we kind of, you know, when we wake up, we're back into this reality. But medicine, your meditations are, I mean, I'm assuming it's nowhere near as vivid, vivid, as it was during your NTD. But is there a way in your meditations. What do you feel as far as connection to Source connection to your higher self, and so on?

Dr. Eben Alexander 16:11
Well, it really, it doesn't happen every time. In fact, I have to really work at it. And every few weeks or months or so I'll have a really deep dive in kind of consecutive meditations that will help me connect with that not only to remember, like some of the events of the end, but to develop this relationship. And I share a lot of that, specifically in the book Living in a mindful universe, especially around my adoptive father, because if I had scripted this whole thing, he had passed over four years before my coma. And if I had scripted it, he would have been there front and center. And yet he was not. But I did find him in a very beautiful way and deep meditation about two, two and a half years until after my coma. And I explained that whole encounter in living in a mindful universe, but it was an extraordinary experience. So that just shocked me no end. And yet it then made perfect sense. So in essence, his sense of humor came through in a beautiful way. And he was telling me that he could not be apparent to me during my indie, because then if he'd been the guardian angel, I would have been more tempted to in spite of a one in 10 million diagnosis of Ecoli meningitis in an adult, in spite of a woman a billion recovery. If he had been there, I might have been more tempted to dismiss it all, as you only see who you want to see on the way out. And that's why I actually had to have someone that I didn't know, who was very important to me in my life and a bigger sense, you know, going back to that birth family, having left the world two years for even knew of our existence. And, and all of that was an important part of it. But I've used meditation, to develop those kinds of relationships. Now, you're exactly right, though, the ultra reality that to me was so shocking, about the the gateway Valley and the core is something for one thing I found most indie ears describe that same kind of ultra reality to real to be real kind of sense. And I had no idea of that, because I'd never read the indie literature before my coma. And my older son who was majoring in neuroscience, at the time, was smart enough to advise me to write down everything I could remember about my coma, before I read anyone else's in the account. And that was very good advice. And then I had a pristine, got a 20,000 word, document explaining what you know, I remembered and what I've been through. And I think that that was really a very important part of this, but then to discover that ultra reality is so commonly described. And I knew exactly what that was all about. Because of my deep coma experience. Occasionally, I get a glimpse of that, in some of the visions I have in deep meditation, where I get back into that kind of stage setting where the universe presents me with this kind of elaborate and complete scene of reality that I may recognize as part of this life or potentially part of this life. But sometimes I just have to extrapolate that it might be a different part of my soul journey. I don't want to necessarily say a past life memory, because I have yet to be fully convinced of the veracity of any sense of past life memories, I've had meditation, because they're so difficult to prove, you know, to go back and get objective data to prove that that person actually existed. To me, that's a big challenge. And it's something I'm always looking for and something I haven't necessarily found, but I've certainly found some beautiful kind of settings within deep meditation that helped me come to answers about issues in my life now, and they can seem very real. When they're when I'm going through them. In fact, they can seem like a true reality being lived in the moment. But the real essence here is, is, you know, coming up with the right ways to meditate. The, for me, the very first and obvious thing is you need to turn off a little monkey mind voice in your head. You know, I some people identify with a voice in their head, they think that's who they are. They think that's their consciousness. I think Rene Descartes even made that kind of mistake, when he said Kognito, ergo, soon he might have been thinking that because those thoughts were happening that made him alive and aware and existent. Whereas in fact, it was his ability to observe those thoughts. That actually meant he existed. And that's a an important distinction, something we often make in our in our meditation workshops. But, you know, once people understand that there's a far grander, kind of conscious awareness lurking within mind, once you can shut up that little monkey mind, annoying roommate, as Michael singer calls that voice in the head, then there's a lot of room for some rich growth. And that's where I've learned to really ride to sacred acoustics, tones, and kind of maximize my kind of depth of letting go. It's what some people call a state of non self, very ego free, but also want a pure awareness. So it's, it's a bit dicey. And of course, it's has that strange paradox, like so many spiritual nuggets of gold, that if you grasp it too hard, you can't get it, it's elusive. Just like I opened my book, Proof of Heaven with my dreams of flying as a child. And I said, the more I embraced the flying, the harder I crashed into the ground. So it's this strange little dance of kind of letting it go. But there are techniques to do that within meditation. And those are things that Karen and I often describe in our workshops and play shops and all the various ways we present meditation to the world.

Alex Ferrari 21:53
Yeah, I mean, when I, when I started meditating, originally, it was very difficult because that monkey monkey voice was just constant, constant constant. But what I found that worked for me is I allow I allow the monkey voice to just keep talking. And I just let if I didn't, I didn't try to control it, I just let it go. And then within a few minutes, I now I get it. I'm in probably within a couple minutes after years of meditation, but before it would take me 1015 minutes, 20 minutes, just it get to a place where you just go and exactly, you're gone, not asleep, you're gone. And you come back, and then I always love it. When I lose track. I have no idea how long I've been under right? That's always the my best like, Oh my God, I've been under two hours. Like that's

Dr. Eben Alexander 22:35
Yeah, I agree. That's when when you're really hitting the magic. And for me, I'm, you know, I'm using binaural beat audio signals to drive it. And the signal to me that I'm way in deep is when I'm no longer aware of hearing that audio, you know, when I get that deep, and I'm just and you're, of course, you're completely outside of space and time you are really in that zone. And it's the same region where for example, people encounter souls of departed loved ones and go through life reviews. So that's why in fact, in our workshops, we help people kind of use these tones to get deep into a meditative state. And we you actually use the MBE scale, developed by Dr. Bruce Grayson, in 1983. We use that to help people have kind of markers and milestones for the various events that occur in their deep meditation. So in essence, it's a way of considering that you're building up an ND E to cultivation of this relationship and exploring consciousness beyond that little ego mind and linguistic brain.

Alex Ferrari 23:41
Now there's something called the Glasgow Glasgow Coma Scale Glasgow Coma Scale. Yeah, I wanted you to kind of really detail that a little bit for the audience because I want to because a lot of people have I mean, there's 1000 Millions and any stories out there so yours is really interesting because according to this Coma Scale you you had complete you were completely brain dead it all.

Dr. Eben Alexander 24:03
I was not used the term brain dead. I turn I don't think that proper but my brain was was terribly impacted to a point where one would not expect any kind of phenomenal experience, Dream hallucination, confabulation, all of that. So yeah, I can certainly explain explain that if you'd like.

Alex Ferrari 24:20
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Again, I am not the doctor. So not the

Dr. Eben Alexander 24:23
I won't go into detail

Alex Ferrari 24:25
Just a little bit, just a little bit.

Dr. Eben Alexander 24:26
But for example, if people can look at the medical case report on my medical records, which goes into a lot of detail about my Glasgow Coma Scale, it's a very important part of the assessment, especially when you realize that all eight major lobes of my brain were involved. My brainstem was involved. My spinal cord was involved. I mean, this meningitis was an encephalitis and it was destroying my central nervous system at all levels. But to get to your question, Glasgow Coma Scale, and again, this is apparent in the case report, and anybody can Get to that case report if they if you go to Eben Alexander comm go to my blog posting for September 2018, in the third paragraph there in which the whole blog, just, you know, discuss that report. And in beginning of paragraph 30, there's a hot link directly to the case report itself. So you can get all the data right there, but they make a big deal of my Glasgow Coma Scale. Now, for you or me today, right now, we would score 15 period, everybody gets that for being a normal functioning human being a corpse would get a three. So anything between three and 15 are the valid numbers, anything nine or below is deep coma. Now it turns out, in the case report, they say that most of that week, my Glasgow Coma Scale was around six or seven. Now there are times in the nursing notes where you can easily score me with a five, so I got that low through much of the week. It turns out, they gave me an 11 for one moment in the emergency room. And that's because I don't remember this at all. But it was witnessed by several people, including my former spouse, and my former fiscal preacher, and neighbor and friend who is there, Michael Sullivan, they heard it. And that is after several hours of just moaning and groaning and flailing and seizing and no meaningful words at all. I said, God helped me. And they heard me scream that out. Now I have no memory at all. But for an instant, the very fact that I could utter words and a phrase of pop me up to an 11 on the GCS scale. But I think by and large, you can just consider I was six or seven, as low as five most that week. And that at a time when my neurologic exams really showed damage far beyond just the neocortex, my brainstem was damaged. So it was, this was a very wicked case of bacterium and endo encephalitis that should have killed me. And absolutely at the end of it, when they estimated gone from 10% to 2% Chance survival with no chance of recovery. That's what the medical literature would suggest about this. There are no cases I found in the literature of a similar meningitis with a complete recovery. They just aren't there. And in fact, when the three doctors submitted the case report to the peer reviewers at the Journal of Nervous and Mental diseases, they were challenged. How do you explain this? This case is absurd. No one this ill comes back completely. How do you explain it. And what the three doctors said is that it was because of the near death experience that I was able to have such an unexpected recovery. And they knew of other cases like Anita Moorjani, who's stage four, B lymphoma, basically disappeared after her near death experience or the story of Dr. Mary C. Neil, she had a beautiful in D after a kayaking accident, Chile, in which she had a more than 30 minute warm water drowning. Now any any doctor out there who's ever handled drowning victims knows 30 plus minutes in warm water, you're toast, you're not coming back, and yet she had a full recovery. So the big lesson to all of us as human beings, is that the spiritual realm offers a tremendous amount of capability of healing far beyond the expectations of our materialist models. And this, this is just an extension beyond placebo effect. For example, you know, we've honored placebo effects for more than six decades in medicine as the arbiter of a new treatment that we wanted to examine. And that's because doctors recognized in the 1950s, that beliefs, thoughts and attitudes can play a tremendous role in how healthy someone can be when they're deceased. And so placebo effect is widely acknowledged in medicine. But it's much more than just a sugar pill fixing a headache. If you go to Institute of Noetic web Sciences website, put in the search term spontaneous remission, you'll find a book they published in the mid 1990s, with more than 3500 cases of basically miraculous healings from cancer, infections, what have you, healings that went far beyond any medical intervention? And the good news is Hellena Wahby, who works at ion is now updating that database with 30 more years of data. I cannot wait to see that. But in other words, we're just talking here about the capabilities for healing ourselves. And I would say any kind of physical, mental and emotional healing is ultimately spiritual in the sense, the spiritual just having two ingredients to my book. One is a sense of connection through mine You know that we're all connected. That's why we can pray for others and to the mental realm we can influence their healing and that kind of thing, and also a sense of shared purpose and meaning to our existence, that it's all not just blind mechanistic wheel of suffering that we're trying to get off of. But then all of this is leading somewhere, and that we're in this together. That's that's the beautiful part of it all.

Alex Ferrari 30:24
Can you talk a little bit about your life review? Because I've always been fascinated, because I've heard this concept repeated again. And again, what is what was your life review, like in

Dr. Eben Alexander 30:32
Very important to point out, given my amnesia, there was no way I was going to go through an Eben Alexander life review, because all of those facts of my life were obscured for me during the journey. Now, it turns out, though, that I had two fantastic visions that I've often talked about in presentations, and I'm just beginning to kind of work together, how to explain them. And in another book that will cover kind of my progress and understanding all this. But these two visions happened in the core route, that kind of ultimate destination that I had, of course, I would bounce back from it. But ultimately, I would rise back to that core. That's where so many of the lessons happen. And one of the first vision that I recall was one that I call The Flying Fish version. And that was this very strong vision of these fish down in the water zipping along at speed, you know, and that was how I saw us in these material bodies, dumbed down temporarily not remembering there's program, forgetting which covers the over of those memories of past lives in between lives. So by age five or six, most children have great difficulty remembering those memories are passed in between lives. And, and so for me, I saw that these flying fish would come up out of the water, and that was like dying, leaving the physical body getting back into the spiritual realm, where they would reunite with souls of departed loved ones, as other flying fish are up in the air. And then they go through life reviews, which were basically mid course corrections, ways of kind of learning any residual lessons from this life if our soul was advanced enough to take on those, those lessons and learnings, and then work with our soul group to come up with a challenge is to be involved in the next slide, and then dive back in. So that flying fish version was one. But there was a more powerful version that came with another passage to the core. This one I refer to as the Indras. Net version. And that was a vision of this incredible tapestry multi dimensional tapestry of all these inter woven threads, and I saw the threads as the lives of sentient beings. And the web and weave of the fabric was basically like breathing, but it was coming into incarnations, learning and teaching and then exiting a body, reuniting with souls of departed loved ones going through life review, reshuffling the mix for the next set of lessons. And then going back in and that was what I saw woven into this tapestry that went towards this brilliant, glowing golden future of, of what I soon came to call it kind of a Christ consciousness after Pierre Teilhard de Shara Dan's writings in the mid 20th century. He was a scientist, a paleontologist, but also very spiritually as a French Jesuit priest. And in his book, The phenomenon of man, he recognized that evolution was indeed happening, but it was much grander than just some puny little evolution of life forms on Earth. And that all of consciousness throughout the cosmos was in the process of evolving. And that is exactly why I call that that Indras. Net version. And that brilliant glowing center was kind of where all this is headed. And from the perspective of humans now, I would say we're looking at about a 5000 year epoch of trying to come to a deeper understanding of what the universe has presented to us, and our understanding of what it means about our relationship with it. And beyond, you know, the next few 1000 years, I'm not sure if we can really see where this is all headed. But what it looks like right now is learning this profound lesson of oneness, that we're connected through one mind and that those visions that people have in life reviews of Indies, of, you know, witnessing the events, not from their own perspective, but the emotional perspective of others around them. That's the interesting thing about life reviews, is they show us that two major things. One is that the boundaries of self are part of a fiction that we live with here, but that ultimately we're sharing the dream of the one mind. And that I think, is a very important way to put it and we find that out in that life of you. If you've been busy handing out painting suffering to other people in the life of you, you become the you feel the brunt of it. Because all that comes back on you, that's how life reviews work. But there are a lesson that the soul, these deep soul lessons are not, you know, learned just from the perspective of an ego of a one sentient being, but that they acknowledge this kind of learning and teaching together. And the other key part of life reviews is people often describe them is, you know, reliving in detail the event, it's not some vague, Sepia attended memory. This is an actual emotionally engaging re visiting those events. And again, often from the perspective of others who are impacted by thoughts and actions. And that's where I think, the bigger lesson of life reviews and the way I saw them, as both the flying fish and that Indras net vision was just an extraordinary way to present that kind of timeless nature of seeing our evolution of, but in a much richer sense. And that deep time, since that means you don't have to worry about some of the details like, what if my loved one reincarnates before I get there, I mean, by definition, since this is really all about the relationships, there's no way that a loved one would not be there at that time. And that's the beauty of kind of seeing how deep time allows for these things to occur completely outside of the flow of time that we're witness to in our kind of consensus reality here on Earth.

Alex Ferrari 36:33
So in your experience, do you think that that souls I guess, almost travel in, in similar circles, like, you know, if I'm, you know, my wife and I, we have a deep connection in this life, or my kids and I have a deep connection in this life, in the next life, the roles might be changed exactly lessons, but we might be running in the same circuit, nothing goes with our parents and our exams and things like that. So that's kind of the what you you were seeing from your experience as well.

Dr. Eben Alexander 37:02
Yeah, absolutely. That, that the the love is really, you know, that's the trump card. That's what dictates everything else that happens. And I believe that there is a lot to that of kind of soul groups reincarnating. And of course, it points out that our gender of course, is not part of our soul, we can easily flip flop genders, or roles of parent child or grandparent and grandchild, things like that can flip flop in these in these various kind of reshuffling of our of our soul journey with our soul group. But I think it's, it's a very comforting thing to appreciate that that's really the deepest lesson of near death experiences. And of course, it dovetails perfectly, for example, into the terminal care and hospice work. For example, there's a beautiful book called death is but a dream came out about three years ago by Dr. Christopher Kirk arr. He's a works in hospice buffalo in New York. And it's a beautiful book, he has no interest in the afterlife. But when he describes what is going on with people who are passing from this world on his watch, you end up hearing the very same stories that you often hear from people who have had an indie, you know about making amends for their wrongs in this life, when they've hurt others, a huge part of the process there is making amends to those people in whatever way possible. And that's really why the death experience can be so powerful and validating and affirming of life is that that is our really our chance to kind of rise up to the occasion and become the souls we came here to be. And that includes admitting the wrongs we've done to other and how that never fits in to this vision of life reviews and how they nudge us towards unconditional love for all of our fellow beings. I mean, the life review is, is the golden rule, you know, treat others as you would like to be treated written into the very fabric of the universe. And the golden rule, I would say is essential to basically all major religious systems, and certainly some ethical, you know, atheist systems of morals and ethics. Golden Rule is right there at the heart of it. And yet you see it perfectly demonstrated in life reviews, because if we hurt others, We are hurting ourselves. And that's what we discover in that life review. And that's a lesson that this world really needs to learn now with all of our polarization and friction and false sense of separation that's inherent in the predominant materialist model. You know, that's what gives us that false sense of separation, where it's a quantum informed version of reality and understanding consciousness fully allows for this oneness that we share. And we're in this together,

Alex Ferrari 39:50
Do you believe now? I mean, obviously, in my lifetime, I've never seen so much discore and discord and just polarization And the world is kind of upside down environmentally, we're going through a pandemic, once in a generation pandemic, there's so much going on, it seems that there is almost a reshuffling a shaking of the edges sketch a bit, to date myself a bit of, of the world. And it's it's something that's not just a little, you know, this country here that country, there are groups of countries, the whole world is going through this at the exact same time, which is something really that I hadn't seen before in my definitely in my time. But let alone in recent, last 500,000 years, I haven't seen the entire planet kind of really be affected by this. Why do you think from your perspective, this is happening? And what do you think that this means for us going forward?

Dr. Eben Alexander 40:49
Well, I can draw an analogy to work in addiction and alcoholism studies. You know, in medicine, we often encounter people who are suffering from various addictions. And that can be to substances or not, for example, some people are addicted to work, some are addicted to exercise, some are addicted to love, or sex, I mean, there are many different things we can be addicted to, that can really wreck our lives. Those are always diseases of the ego. That is where the ego is making demands. And the host can't necessarily, you know, satisfy all those demands, in fact, some therapists will do a ritual sacrifice of the ego. Now, I would say in many ways, our modern world is kind of addicted to materialist thought, and that false sense of separation to a lot of things that are very toxic. And that is what brings us to, you know, in in the alcoholism, addiction work, you can call a gift of desperation, where somebody hits so low bottom, you know, things just get so wrecked and bad in their life because of the addiction, that they've got to bounce up and use that energy to get better. And in many ways, our world is currently facing a collective gift of desperation. I mean, who in the world who, you know, grew up, like in my, you know, 60s 70s 80s Would you know, the Cold War, you know, the USSR versus the US building bomb shelters in the 60s and 70s, all this madness, insane madness, who would have thought that in the year 2022, boom, all of a sudden, we'd be back in just like, you know, 1939 or something where one European country is invading another militarily or threatening it? Are you kidding me? We haven't grown up any more than that. And I think that this is part of the issue that, you know, with climate change, I think the planet pandemic, in many ways, was just a wake up call, to help us realize that the only way we can really kind of survive and thrive with these kinds of challenges is to face them together. And the more we kind of take this mindless idiocy, and continue telling ourselves the lies, that got us into this trouble, our addiction to fossil fuel, all the corporate greed, you see with just extraordinary wealth, concentrated in the top one or 2%, and the bottom 50% left wanting. I mean, there are giant problems in any country that has billionaires and starving children, those two things should never be in the same space. And you know why we've gotten so confused about all this? I'm not sure. But I will also say that I believe that when there is a major paradigm shift imminent, that in fact, the fundamentalist forces that feel threatened from that paradigm shift recoil in this giant kind of rage. It's like a cobra, you know, spreading it's, you know, looking as big as it can is it gets its fangs out, ready to spray. And that's what we're seeing. That's the madness of the political polarization, you know, threats of a new war out of Russia. And, and meanwhile, so many of this world are waking up to this revolution in consciousness, that really points to the oneness we all share. And in fact, I'm very optimistic about the future. And it's because I think we are going through an energizing gift of desperation that will help this world truly wake up. indies, in many ways are the tip of the spear. You know, the materialist science that I worshiped before coma, I do not use that term lightly. That materialist science feels very threatened. And certainly people who harbor these kinds of wealth accumulating modes of our current society, etc. The corporate greed and all the problems with addiction to fossil fuels and plastic pollution. I mean, all the real horrible, ugly underbelly of Homo sapiens kind of raping and pillaging the world. I think people are waking up to that and they're not really going to allow us to go through another major phase of kind of self destruct Have egocentric mindlessness which is what we've spent the better part of the last few centuries circling the drain. So I think that all the kind of roughness that we're complaining about in the world, in many ways is a good sign that we're waking up, we're not going to tolerate this, we're not going to continue to burn fossil fuels like crazy and enrich the fossil fuel industry. Because it's madness of what it's doing to our planet is obvious to anyone. You know, who's witnessing these extreme droughts fires, the extreme floods, superstorms, rising sea levels. I mean, we are really in a deep trouble already. We've already gone over the cliff. And it's high time we did the right thing and took responsibility for our choices.

Alex Ferrari 45:45
It's a fantastic answer to that question. Because I agree with you 110%. We think it is madness. It's suicidal to continue to go the path that we've been going, and something is shaking us up. Right? It's hard to it's always hard. Like I always say it's hard to read the book, when you're, when your book is to your nose, you need to pull it back a little bit, right, to get perspective. And I think that's what I think that's what the world is doing to us right now is it's hopefully giving us perspective. Now you've used the term consciousness a lot throughout, not only this conversation, but throughout your work, what is your definition of consciousness?

Dr. Eben Alexander 46:21
Well, consciousness is really awareness of existing, you know, Rene Descartes, Cogito ergo sum, I think, therefore I am, I wish he had clarified that a little better, because it kind of confused people he made it seem like the thinking itself was the existence, but it's the awareness of the thinking, that is the existence. And that's where we can make a modern differentiation. And we can put our linguistic brain and ego brain, ego mind into timeout. So I would just say consciousness is that awareness of existence? It turns out, it's a property of the universe at large that pre existed, the Big Bang, and sentient beings can share in that mental layer of the universe. My partner, Karen Newell would be, you know, mental layer implies mind over matter, like placebo effect, and spontaneous healing, you know, all that kind of thing. And she would be reminding us that the truth is spirit over matter, not mind over matter. And that's where the definitions whether you want to call this idealism with a mental layer of the universe, having this top down causal ordering. Or if you want to go beyond that, which I often like to do, in a philosophical discussion, say, it's not just the mental layer, that is that is determining so much of what happens in our lives. But it's really that spiritual layer. That's where we all come together in a sense of purpose and meaning. There's a great book out there called the One Mind by friend and colleague, Larry Dossey. I would point that book out. In fact, for your listeners who want to know more about evidence for the afterlife, there's been a recent contest in 2021, from Bigelow, and people can go read the 29 Winning essays to that contest at Bigelow And the the, the question they were to answer, what is the best scientific evidence for the survival of consciousness after permanent bodily death. And so at that website, Bigelow, you can find 29 Winning essays that will absolutely take you to the next level of understanding the reality of this. Now, I mentioned it because the second place paper, by Dr. Pim Van Lommel, is an excellent paper. It's it's a very scientific and right on target. But at the towards the very end, he agrees with our position in living in a mindful universe and talks about the one mind and the brain is a filter. And he references the four different sources for that one source is Larry Dossey, his book, The one mind, another is even Taylor's book, spiritual science. Another resource is a paper scientific paper bar by Bernardo kastrup. It's called Consciousness in the Universe. And then the fourth source that he lives is the book Living in a mind for universe to Karen Newell and I wrote, all four of those sources are very powerful scientific arguments for the reality of one mind that we are sharing and and looking at the brain as a filter, or a transceiver that gives us each a slightly different perspective of the one mind but that ultimately, our consciousness is that one mind we're sharing the dream of the one mind, that one mind is that infinitely healing God force that so many have encountered in near death and shared death experiences and, you know, prophets and mystics going back 1000s of years have bathed in that ocean of love of that one mind. And so this is really a scientific model of its unfolding, called filter theory and that That's what we go into and living in a mind for universe to explain all this. But it helps to understand much more of all these kinds of experiences and how they can be viewed in a way that makes sense in a modern understanding of the nature of reality.

Alex Ferrari 50:15
So the filtering idea is, so essentially, we all are thinking, we all know thinking, we all have that same consciousness, we all are one giant mind, if to use a better lack of a better term mind. But depending on our exists, our experiences where we're born, our race, our time, our cities, our communities, our religious beliefs, those are all filters that kind of filter out, like filter different perspectives of the whole, is that make sense?

Dr. Eben Alexander 50:47
Yeah, I would say that's, that's a very good way way to look at it. And, you know, just to reminder that it's, again, that golden rule being written into the fabric of universe, that's all we're really saying here is you learned that when you heard another, you might have to go through that in a life review. And it's all done in this process, of course, refinement. And what it points out, in a very strong fashion, is the importance of freewill. Because remember that modern materialist science will scoff at you if you claim to have any free will. And that's because they think consciousness is simply the epiphenomenon of, you know, chemical reactions and electron fluxes in the substance of the brain. And that that's what gives us consciousness. They think all all those atoms and molecules are following the laws of physics, chemistry, biology. So where in the world would you put freewill in that system. And that's where you recognize the importance of really going deep on this. And so we rely on this notion of the primacy of mind the primacy of consciousness, not only on the hard problem of consciousness, which is basically the impossibility of trying to put together the way the brain works and explain conscious phenomenal experience, but also philosophy of mind the binding problem, the apparent unity of consciousness within an individual. Why is that? So if it's all these different neuronal populations doing their own thing, where does that unity come from? And then you've got all the evidence for non local consciousness out of parapsychology things like telepathy, pre cognition, pre sentiment, out of body experiences, near death experiences, shared death, a past life memories and children indicative reincarnation after death, communication, deathbed vision, all these things, we go into great detail about each and every one of them contribute to this notion of the one mind. And then ultimately, you've got quantum physics itself banging on the door. That is what tells the scientific community that you can forget about a deterministic, Newtonian universe, which is what they're thinking with those chemical reactions and electron fluxes. I mean, John Wheeler, the renowned a head of physics at Princeton, came up with a participatory anthropic principle, what he was pointing out, was the importance of mind, mind, not derivative from matter, to explain all this. And so, all of these arguments and living in a mindful universe, we bring them all together to make the case for this one mind that we're all sharing in the brain serving as a filter. And it's very important for this world at large, especially with our dominant kind of materialist thinking and its errors of pretending that none of us have free will. That consciousness is a complete illusion, that ignores I think, human history and destiny. That is not simply, I think, when you look back on it, you can't just assume this was the result of a lot of random chemical reactions and electron fluxes in brains that lead to this emergent reality, there's something much richer and deeper going on, that has to do with the primacy of consciousness. And that's what the quantum physics, people were telling us, you know, by huge numbers in the early history of the field of quantum physics, and the work has only gone to paynus into the corner, where you really have to admit that objective idealism, that mental error of the universe, top down causality, all of that is real. And there are some quantum physicists who may still be stuck in the weeds. You know, they think no, no, no, it's the subatomic particles, following all the rules and laws of physics and chemistry, biology. That's what gives us the events of our world. Well, no, that's not true. There's a top down causal principle. And as sentient beings, we have access to that mental layer of the universe. So the mental layer is really just a layer of information integration and assimilation. And that's what we have access to. And so in the modern era, all of this discussion can be very fruitful, especially if you forget sample follow Carlo Rovelli is relational interpretation of quantum mechanics of the measurement paradox, which is the sticking point where everybody is in disagreement. And then support Bernardo kastrup. 's relational interpretation with I'm sorry, Carlo Ravalli is relational interpretation with a metaphysics of Bernardo Castro, who was one of the endorsers of our book Living in a mindful universe. And of course, I've also endorsed a lot of his work, specifically, the idea of the world, his book, a very excellent argument for the mental nature of reality, and basically objective idealism, as the rule by which this whole universe works.

Alex Ferrari 55:42
Now, I wanted to just touch on something in regards to freewill because that's always a sticking point with a lot of people like, Oh, if we have these past lives, and we have to come back in and out and reincarnate, you know, everything's pre written for us, like we don't have anything to do. So my understanding of freewill is like, Look, tomorrow I can decide to go be an astronaut. Or even better yet, I'm going to go be an NBA player. Now, that might be something I can choose to go try to do. chances of me doing that, because I'm not really built for that I wasn't set up for that the whole my whole life path hasn't been aimed at that would be a difficult journey. And that might be a path that I have to learn. And I believe me, I've have gone through some of those journeys in my life of dreams that are like, maybe I want to be an NFL player, in that you weren't built for that. That's not your path. But you'd have the choice to kind of go in and out. But I always found it at least in my life, when you start walking the path that was kind of written for you. Things flow a lot easier, things move a lot easier, there's less obstacles, when you start getting a lot of obstacles in front of you, that's generally a sign that something is off a little bit here there, you have to figure out other ways to go about it if the if the want and the want and the burning need to go down that path is there. What's your opinion on that?

Dr. Eben Alexander 56:59
Well, I think you bring up some wonderful points. But this whole idea of pre determinism, versus a freewill. I believe that in many ways, our soul groups kind of lay out some potential milestones for how we will work together who will come in as the parent child playing this role that role, you know, and it can involve a lot of things, especially what we view from this world is hardships and difficulties, challenges, illness, injury. And I think that it's how we deal with those challenges, that really defines our free will and our soul growth, the more we can recover that love of the universe for self, the more we can share that love by manifesting it for others and facing up to the hardships and difficulties in life with a proper attitude of growth and learning and, and gratitude and forgiveness when necessary. I think that is what really points out to me the kind of healing that can come from acknowledging our true free will. But ultimately, it involves taking these lessons of life, as you've said, often, we perceive certain hurdles that might be in our way to get to certain points. And so we're there kind of navigating that pathway and trying to kind of fulfill our wants and desires and what we see as our needs and our relationships, but do it, you know, in a proper fashion that allows us to grow as souls and I would say, from my point of view, I think that there might be some pre determinism to some of those challenges and hardships we face. For example, my being given up for adoption when I was 11 days old. I think that was part of my soul agreement coming in, because I my higher soul, not my ego self. You know, if we look at this, these questions and statements from our ego mind, sometimes we go what are you talking about crazy? Why would I choose to face that hardship or difficulty or illness or injury in this life? No way? Well, their ego wouldn't let their higher soul could easily see some value, and potential for growth of the whole group. It's never about an individual soul. It's always about the relationships. And the group at large. I mean, that mirrors a general principle coming to the fore in modern physics, that it's not about the electrons and the photons and the corks and the particles, but it's about excitations in the field. So it's about the relationships. And that's exactly what we're talking about here. It's all about the relationships. And that's why it's so important to understand the power of love to bring healing and wholeness to our existence. And you know, so many of us live our lives not necessarily acknowledging that fact. And yet, in the indie community, and when you study modern examples of, of consciousness, especially things like after death, communications, deathbed visions, you start to realize that we can depend on that spiritual realm to help guide us and nudge us in a proper direction for soul growth. As I said, in the book Proof of Heaven, you know, my guardian angel told me you're deeply loved and cherished, forever, you have nothing to fear you're cared for. But I also said you can do no wrong. And the way I put it in Proof of Heaven that was misinterpreted, and I wish I explained it much more fully, because in against the ambience, so that beautiful loving, of healing power of that God love of that realm, you know, any transgressions of hurting others in a life review seem especially abhorrent. So you've got to realize that, that that ambience of you know, it doesn't matter, even if you're dealing with, say, prisoners in a maximum security prison filled with murderers and rapists, serving as hospice workers, for fellow prisoners, what they describe are similar journeys, of people coming to the end of their life and having regrets about hurting others, and of not manifesting that love often coming to some kind of realization, maybe about a childhood trauma, where they realize that their own parent had faced similar hardships. And that helps them to explain why that parent behave like that. And then they understand more deeply why they behave like that, even though they've now come at their into their life to realize it's wrong. And realize it in all these settings of the ambience of that love, the healing power of love is right at the front of it all. It's not like people are worried about oh, they encounter what looks like eternal hell and damnation or something like that. That's not what happens. What happens is maybe an unpleasant life review, because you handed out pain and suffering to others. But it's always these lessons are very positive and affirming about the reality of that realm about its importance to us, as sentient beings, living these lives, and in really just a much grander sense of what this existence is all about.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:55
And Doctor, where can people find out more about you and your and where to get the book?

Dr. Eben Alexander 1:02:00
Well go to I have a reading list there with a lot of more than 100 books and kind of papers and they're organized by category. I prioritize them by my favorites, etc. Some of the scientific papers you can get to by a hot link. So it goes to the real paper right then and there. So that reading list is an excellent resource. My blog postings are there. A lot of other things are there that people can explore FAQ page answers a lot of the common questions people ask about my experience. So Eben Alexander calm is a great place. Also encourage anyone interested in the meditation go to sacred of full disclosure, that's the website of my partner and co author of that book Living in a mindful universe. Karen Newell, she's the co founder of sacred acoustics, which is a form of binaural beat brainwave entrainment. That's what I've used, you know, an hour to a day for the last 10 plus years to re explore my journey. I'm one of their biggest fans, by far, although I have no financial ties to sacred acoustics at all. But I'm a giant fan of also, I would encourage people to go to United in hope and healing calm. And that website is something Karen and I started back at the beginning of the pandemic, it was Karen's brilliant idea. We have in there a whole series of interviews we did with some of the renowned thought leaders around the globe in consciousness studies, and also some other experiencers is extraordinary list of interviews, we did them every two weeks, for about 18 months during the early pandemic. So there are plenty of interviews there, just go to United and hope and healing, calm. Much of that program is completely free. Some aspects of it like a course for mental health practitioners does have a charge attached to it. But a lot of the work there is absolutely free and available to the public. Those interviews are worth their weight in gold or platinum. I'm not sure which. But we invite people to go to United and hope and healing calm to join us and we'll be probably revisiting those interviews and starting a whole series of new ones in the next few months. For right now though, it's a tremendous backlog of very important interviews there that will help people get fully up to speed with all of this.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:22
Eben thank you again so much for being on the show and sharing your journey with not only my audience, but with the world with your work in your book. So I appreciate you my friend. Thank you and continued continued success in your work.

Dr. Eben Alexander 1:04:33
Well, Alex, thanks so much for getting this out to the world. It's been a joy talking with you and hopefully we can do it again sometime. Thanks so much.

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