Why High-Protein, Keto and Paleo Diets are Dangerous with Dr. Joel Fuhrman

Joel Fuhrman, M.D. is a board-certified family physician, seven-time New York Times best-selling author and internationally recognized expert on nutrition and natural healing. He specializes in preventing and reversing disease through nutritional methods. Dr. Fuhrman is the President of the Nutritional Research Foundation and on the faculty of Northern Arizona University, Health Sciences division. He coined the term “Nutritarian” to describe a nutrient-dense eating style, designed to prevent cancer, slow aging, and extend lifespan.

For over 30 years, Dr. Fuhrman has shown that it is possible to achieve sustainable weight loss and reverse heart disease, diabetes and many other illnesses using smart nutrition. In his medical practice, and through his books and television specials, he continues to bring this life-saving message to hundreds of thousands of people around the world.

Dr. Fuhrman is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania (Perelman) School of Medicine (1988) and has received the St. Joseph’s Family Practice Resident’s Teaching Award for his contribution to the education of family practice residents; and a C3 Cardiology Global Health Award for teaching nutritional science to cardiologists.

Dr. Fuhrman operates the Eat To Live Retreat in San Diego. At this residential facility, people from all over the world come to stay for 4-12 weeks to recover from conditions ranging from cardiovascular disease to autoimmune disease, food addiction and more. They also gain the skills and knowledge to make these changes permanent when they leave the retreat.

A native of Yonkers, N.Y., Dr. Fuhrman is a former world-class figure skater, who placed second in the United States National Pairs Championships in 1973 and third in the 1976 World Professional Pairs Skating Championship in Jaca, Spain. Along with his nutritional expertise, Dr. Fuhrman has been involved professionally with sports medical committees, advised professional and Olympic athletes, and has lectured to athletic trainers and world-class athletes about maximizing performance and preventing injury.

In his hundreds of radio and television appearances, including The Dr. Oz ShowThe Today ShowLive with Kelly, and Good Morning America, Dr. Fuhrman has educated millions of people on the long-range benefits of healthy eating. His five hugely successful PBS specials, which have raised over $50 million for public television, bring essential nutritional knowledge to homes all across America.

Dr. Fuhrman is the author of seven New York Times bestsellers, including his most recent bookEat for Life (HarperOne, 2020). His other bestsellers include: Eat to Live (Little Brown, 2003); Super Immunity (HarperOne, 2012); The End of Diabetes (HarperOne, 2013); The Eat to Live Cookbook (HarperOne, 2013); The End of Dieting (HarperOne, 2014) and The End of Heart Disease (HarperOne, 2016).

In addition to his New York Times best sellers, Dr. Fuhrman has written several other popular books on nutritional science which include: Fast Food Genocide (HarperOne, 2018); Eat to Live Quick & Easy Cookbook (HarperOne 2017); Dr. Fuhrman’s Transformation 20 Blood Pressure and Cholesterol (Gift of Health Press); Dr. Fuhrman’s Transformation 20 Diabetes (Gift of Health Press); 10 in 20: Dr. Fuhrman’s Lose 10 Pounds in 20 Days Detox Program (Gift of Health Press); Eat for Health (Gift of Health Press), Disease Proof Your Child (St. Martin’s Griffin), Fasting and Eating for Health (St. Martin’s Griffin) and the Dr. Fuhrman’s Nutritarian Handbook and ANDI Food Scoring Guide (Gift of Health Press).

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Follow Along with the Transcript – Episode 099

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 0:00
Genes are reflective of what we're eating, that our genes are modifiable, and change their expression based on what we eat. So we're not looking at our genes to tell us what we should eat. We're eating to shape the development and function of our genes. And they work together obviously in the body has the ability to repair.

Alex Ferrari 0:30
I've been able to partner with Mindvalley to present you guys FREE Masterclass is between 60 and 90 minutes, hovering Mind Body Soul Relationships, and Conscious Entrepreneurship, taught by spiritual masters, yogi's spiritual thought leaders and best selling authors. Just head over to nextlevelsoul.com/free. I'd like to welcome to the show Dr. Joel Fuhrman. How you doing Dr. Fuhrman?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 1:04
Doing great thanks.

Alex Ferrari 1:05
Thank you so much for coming on the show you, you were an inspiration to me when I first started going down my plant base nutrient dense diet change of over a decade ago now and you've been tirelessly working at trying to get the word out. So hopefully we could get the word out even a little bit more. And today's episode, so I do truly appreciate you coming on.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 1:29
My pleasure.

Alex Ferrari 1:30
So first question is, how did you start this journey into the the understanding that you came to with nutrient dense foods and plant based foods and all that kind of stuff from I mean, I'm assuming you didn't start off this way that you kind of discovered this along the way.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 1:45
You know, I started this in my childhood, actually. Okay. You know, my father was overweight and sickly. And he, I remember most of my spending when I was younger, as a young teenager driving around with he couldn't even sit up here lay on the back of a wagon on a mattress. We drove him from doctor to doctor, to doctor, his doctor visits and things. So he started picking up books. And as I did to try to improve his health, I think it was 12 or 13 years old at the time. I think the first book we read read was you don't have to be sick by Jack Dunn trop. He was a producer of Hopalong. Cassidy in the 1950s or something, or were the Lone Ranger or something. I mean, Jack died at the age of 96. He had, he had two heart attacks before the age of 50. He was almost but he lived to be 96. I played him singles tennis when he was in his 90s. Wow. Yeah, but he would have lived longer if he wasn't so sick when he was younger. But I'm saying the average lifespan of humans should be between at least 96 and 107, you know, for taking good care of our health. But, but then we started reading a lot of Dr. Shelton's works. Um Herbert Shelton, who wrote most of his works between 1930 and 1960. So before I was born, in 53, Shelton wrote a bunch of books and wrote and wrote a newsletter for the American natural hygiene society where there's a monthly like magazine too. So my thoughts so we started so my father changed his diet and lost weight and got healthier. And then we started eating differently as a kid. And then I was on the United States, I was a competitive figure skater, I was actually third in the world in pairs figure skating in the 1970s, I was second in the United States in the 1973 National Championships. So I was always in training, you know, trying not to get sick, trying to get better stamina and strength. So we started cleaning weeks, we're eating very healthy, very clean, you know, we bring the Vitamix and make smoothies and sad blended salads. And so and have you when I was in training, we'd have like a whole bathtub, full of food in the back of the car, you know, eating huge amounts of food because we were training all day long, you know, running and lifting weights and going to classes and skating hours each day. But so so, you know, subsequently in my career now I've invited a lot of world class and Olympic athletes and how to never get six they don't miss their training and Mr. Events and you know, how to maintain the performance, but it started out that way a combination of my father's illnesses and and myself and my sister trying to maintain and achieve greater stamina and performance. You know, you know how like Tom Brady and Venus Williams and all these top tennis players in the world, they pay very close attention to their diet to maintain Venus Williams was off the tennis tour for a few years for with her sjogrens syndromes and whether an autoimmune condition and she changed her diet to what is like which is essentially the nutritarian diet and got well and got back playing tennis again. And a lot of these athletes are prolonging their careers or maintaining their youthfulness by aging slower by following either what I'm doing and utilize my program or something similar look to it. Even Alonzo you know who Alonzo Mourning is?

Alex Ferrari 5:03
Of course, yeah, he's the Miami Heat guy.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 5:05
Yeah, he had when he was ending his career in the Miami Heat, he developed kidney disease. And he his doctor contacted me and my Alonso and his doctor, I gave him a diuretic so he would get rid of his kidney. So we improve his kidney functioning, get rid of his autoimmune condition. And he made a complete recovery went from a really bad shape. really unhealthy guy gotten great health again. Now he's even thinner now. And in better shape health wise, and he was towards the end of his playing career, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 5:32
So, so someone like Tom Brady, because I'm fascinated by Tom Brady, because he's, he seems like a natural, though he should be the actual natural, the most natural, if you will. But he seems almost mythical and how he's been able to maintain his body. And still, he's still arguably the best quarterback playing the game. And he was just what 44 43?How's he doing it?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 6:01
And you know that when if you notice that he wasn't the greatest when he was 19. And he, when he was really young,

Alex Ferrari 6:07
He was he was he wasn't even he wasn't even drafted. I don't think

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 6:11
He took time to develop his skills and his intelligence. And over time, he developed his skills better and better as he got older, because you have that's what we're finding that if you keep these athletes competing, staying healthy and staying youthful, over time, they get better and better as opposed to petering out and burning out their careers because they're aging slow and they can maintain there. You know? So yes, I think Tom Brady has his diet compared to most other football players has maintained his youthful use. youthfulness enabled him to keep training and using his brain and his growing knowledge about the game and improve his skills you have as he got older because he can maintain his youthfulness and age like other people did. And look at me I'm I'm 68 Right? Wow, you and I can literally I can ski moguls and two helicopters. And like, I like when I was a good skin. When it first started. I was 20 years old. I was on an ice skating team, I could do that stuff. But when I got out of medical school, my 30s and I was not in such great shape as I am now what I'm saying right now is my skiing is better than it ever was. My tennis is better than it ever was. I'm faster on the court, I can ski down moguls, the whole run from the top of the mountain down to the bottom at high altitude without getting tired. I can bounce around on mobiles and take jumps and fly in the air. You know, I'm as fit as I am now at 68 It wasn't my 30s have more fit, you know, and my body fat slow my my you know what is up? So I feel like I'm not that my physical ability hasn't really aged much even at 68.

Alex Ferrari 7:46
You know, that's just remarkable. Now, I wanted to ask you a question that a lot of people really hear that you hear these kind of words but don't understand what they are. What is micronutrients versus macronutrients?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 7:59
Right! Well, the macronutrients really means calories, because there are three Mac primary macronutrients fat, carbohydrate, and protein. And those are the only way we get calories, fat, carbohydrate and protein. And I'm saying that the excess fat the excess carbohydrate, and the excess protein, when we take an extra calories we didn't need, then it ages us gets us overweight, and destroys our future health. I always say half of what people eat, feeds their needs, and the other half feeds the needs of their doctors. Which means that they're eating themselves into disease diseases, you know, but in any case, the American diet is ubiquitously and severely, micronutrient deficient. And the micronutrients refer to the part of the food factors for for survival, longevity and health that do not contain calories, like vitamins and minerals and phytochemicals and antioxidants. So I'm saying that the the standard American diet because it's so high in processed foods and oils, and animal products, it doesn't contain a significant load of micronutrients, especially antioxidants, phytochemicals in spirit and certain vitamins. It's so low, that the body builds up more toxins and ages very, very rapidly. But I'm also saying that as you achieve micronutrient excellence, it gives you an instinctual desire for the right amount of calories, and you no longer become a calorie consuming monster having to overeat to keep your energy up. And so what I'm saying right now, is that when your diet isn't nutritionally adequate, it makes people want to eat more calories and they can't control that. And they have to become overweight, because their diet is to micronutrient deficient or one of micronutrients, you know, on unsatisfactory the body doesn't can't produce the type of cell repair, the machinery can't be turned on. You can't be too In this reactive oxygen species, you can produce enough energy from the right amount of calories. Because like when you're taking in white flour, that's a drug that's not even sure it's not even a food. If you try to process it for energy, and there's no cofactors and phytochemicals, the body has to convert it to fat leaving if it's converted into fats that are producing energy out of it. So you're left fatigued, and you got to eat more food to keep your energy up. So you see, what I'm saying is here is that there are a lot of different mechanisms that drive over eating behavior that leads people to become overweight. And one of these major mechanisms is micronutrient insufficiencies.

Alex Ferrari 10:34
So if you're able to increase your micronutrient, or nutrient density and your foods, you will technically eat less because your body won't be asking for more and more food, because it's getting what it needs to function properly and to repair things and to grow and to do all the things that it needs to do to run a healthy machine.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 10:56
That's right. And I'm whilst I'm making this radical statement, I'm saying that heart attacks and strokes and high blood pressure and diabetes and high cholesterol and, and oil and dementia, that and cancer and cancer are unnatural to the human species, not the inevitable consequence of aging, not the result of genetics, the result of poor lifestyle, poor habits and poor eating habits that break down the body and that we can make our body cancer proof COVID Proof, high blood, heart attack proof. We don't have to worry about these diseases, and living life into our later years without fear with enthusiasm, passion, creativity and excitement and enjoying our years later, like most Americans get over the age of 60 in their bodies. They're a couch potato and they're living in the gut. And they're they're mostly their involvements in life goes to go into doctors, taking drugs, and getting medical procedures and living in fear of something bad happening to them. They have no quality of life and you're constantly worried about something bad happening to you and constantly being checked in, you know, for cancer in watching for heart attacks and miners doing blood tests. And so all this craziness based on what people put in their mouth

Alex Ferrari 12:07
It's interesting, too, because if you start looking at other mammals on the planet, they don't have these issues. I mean, gorillas don't die of heart attacks.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 12:18
In captivity, because when they feed them kibble, it's exactly right. Gorillas in the wild have no heart attacks only in captivity, and they feed in my kibble like dwarf dog food kind of stuff. You know, we feed them junk food. What's the craziest thing in the world why have a gorilla in captivity, it's not feeding their natural diet, but they wouldn't be eating in the wild.

Alex Ferrari 12:36
It's like giving this guy giving a koala steak it this just doesn't really make sense

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 12:40
In the world what we do to these gorillas in captivity, but there Look, I read an article on this recently that a lot of gorillas in captivity, some of the people being zoos, and people that housed them are trying to clean up their diet and replicate their natural diet have better health and those gorillas.

Alex Ferrari 12:54
So that's such an interesting thing, because we've been told so often it throughout at least the last 100 years, or more, that as you get older, you get dementia, you get heart attacks, you get high blood pressure, you get high cholesterol, these are things that just happen because you're getting older, right? And now the science is coming out and the information is coming out that like no, it's it's really not a thing. It's like, you know, in the in the 1800s. Yeah, lifestyle, what the life the lifespan wasn't as long but they didn't have nearly as much. I don't even know if there was a lot of cancer or if there was a lot of heart.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 13:40
If we have records back, you know, for the medical profession, seeing that there was hardly anything ever cancer reported into the 17 century, when the first cancers they recorded in any significant amount were scrollable. And testicular cancer was found in men who worked as chimney sweeps from inhaling all the smoke. But most of the people who lived in, you know, more poor lifestyle, were eating more plant foods, and that they grew on their own farms. And they really couldn't afford to have all the rich foods that maybe the kings and queens the Ohio class was eating, you know, sort of very little of common diseases. But of course, there were high infant mortality, high infection mortality, that was a lot of one in nine women died during childbirth. But if you look at the Renaissance artists who live in the 14th century, their average age of death was greater than the average age of men today, because they live longer than they'd been men lived today, because they were people that survived their childhood in order to produce works of art, and they were males that didn't die giving birth to children. You know, so they lived so the males and so in any case, we're not living longer today than ever before. We're just having less infant and childhood mortality. But with the adults aren't living longer unless you know, well, you can, especially people in Ukraine now being killed with war, a lot of people in prior generations that killed during wartime in fighting and all kinds of, you know, things that cut short their violence, the cut short their life, we have an opportunity the human lifespan should live between easily between 95 to 105. Without these serious illnesses with full mental faculty and full be able to being active and enjoying your life. I remember, um, what's his name, um, who wrote the good life. I forgot his name. Anyway, if it comes to me, I mentioned he he was a MIT scholar who lived in Maine, and built his own greenhouse and made his own food and they died at 101. Because he felt kind of fatigued, he couldn't work full time anymore. And he had a big party to celebrate his life. And then he fasted himself to death at 101 years old. But I'm just just showing him a lot of these healthy people I knew and that I have known in my medical career who changed who ate healthfully when the two most to a lot of their lives, had very, very long lives in almost all paths, 95 years old.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
Now, you mentioned that the word new

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 16:05
Scott nearing scattering, you heard him Scott nearing, he was very, he was an MIT scholar. He will he used to be an economics professor. And he wanted to show people how you can live off the land and not have to spend a lot of money and still have a good life. And he built any shade didn't mean where it wasn't a warm climate. He grew all his own food, and he, but anyway, he lived to be 101 years old and great health, you know,

Alex Ferrari 16:26
Now you've used the term nutritarian. What is the nutritarian diet consists of?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 16:32
Right, the word nutritarian obviously refers to a diet that people are eating to maximize their health and longevity. Right, that means we're eating a diet rich in nutrients, particularly rich in vegetables, because we're vegetable dependent animals, and we're eating a lot of nutritional variety. We have a wide variety of foods that we that we're eating especially G bombs, greens, and beans, and onions, and mushrooms and berries and seeds and different types of foods. Because we know that the blue zones around the world where people living five to 10 years longer than average, are not eating great diets. They're just better than the average American diet or standard Western diet. So European diets, but they're not eating. They're not eating a diet that's scientifically designed to have the nutrient density and variety of foodstuffs, variety plant material that we can design from scratch a diet that blows the blue zones out of the water. And that's what the nutritarian diet does. It's using the epidemiologic studies, the historical studies, the blue zone studies and randomized control trials to pick the foods with the most powerful anti cancer effects immune system strengthening effects and longevity building effects, and put that together in a dietary portfolio to maximize the health of humans. And then we see that well would mushrooms have Ergo theanine and other longevity factors in them, and they're anti angiogenic and green cruciferous vegetables were the richest source of isothiocyanates, which the most powerfully activate the cellular repair machinery that silences genetic alterations that could lead to disease. So I'm saying right now, that when you think genetics don't play a major role in disease outcomes, because when you eat healthfully, genetic defects gets silenced, and also repaired. And the braca one gene, the GSDP, one gene that increased the risk of breast cancer for women do not increase risk of breast cancer in women eating a nutritarian diet, let's say because we gene silenced those abnormal gene defects. I am saying that we're not that our genes are reflective of what we're eating, that our genes are modifiable, and change their expression based on what we eat. So we're not looking at our genes to tell us what we should eat. We're eating to shape the development and function of our genes. And they work together obviously in the body has the ability to repair methylation defects, broken DNA, crosslinks, and other so our body really has incredible, miraculous self healing properties. When we put all these right foods in, including greens and mushrooms and onions and berries and seeds. Particularly like things like flax seeds and chia seeds and sesame seeds and hemp seeds and all these and walnuts, things like that. And fascinating research that shows us when we have the ability to diet with this wide amount of plant material, then the body becomes really disease proof.

Alex Ferrari 19:25
Now, what is the difference between fast and slow food?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 19:29
Right! Well, the you know, people consider fast food what you purchase in a fast food restaurant. Correct. But we know that that anything that you buy in a package or a camera bag that's affecting what a Twinkie or a doughnut or a you know, some kind of candy was so saying that fast food are things that you can just open up and just eat potato chips, right? It's all fast food, but I'm also considering fast food, anything made with white flour. Because white flour is not a food. It's a drug. It's a cure. Eating a cocaine equivalent. And I'm saying that because sugar honey maple syrup, white flour, the body doesn't differentiate it sees it all coming in as glucose it's a glucose load entering the body. And this major load of glucose because white flour products like bread and bagels and pizza and hamburger buns and all these things and muffins, they enter the bloodstream very rapidly it's called a high glycemic load means a lot of glucose went to buds really quickly. So all this glucose into the bloodstream quickly, without a significant amount of nutrients, it's there's no nutrients, it's just the glucose. When the body has that huge load coming in fast, then the concentration of calories coming in fast all at once in the bloodstream, signals dopamine receptors in the brain. And the same brain centers for stimulation that opiates stimulate like an aquatics. So the extra rush of calories in the blood, drive addiction to those substances and and give you cravings because over time, you become more dopamine and sensitive, and the body starts to require more dopamine stimulation. And then you need concentrated calories. To repeat though that dopamine stimulation to keep to keep yourself feeling even normal. So you're overly dependent on dopamine stimulation from the excess dopamine stimulating effects of the rush of calories in the bloodstream. And the other source of fast food or fast calories or oil because people are eating a lot of their fats from oil, which has put so much calories so rapidly in the bloodstream. That makes them a good system, huge appetite stimulant, and very fattening. You know, most Americans get most of their fat from either oil or animal fats. They're not getting their fat from from food like nuts and seeds. So I'm saying it's walnuts, not the walnut oil. It's sesame seeds, not the sesame oil. It's pistachio nuts, not the pistachios. You get your fats from these whole nuts and seeds. The fat calories come into the bloodstream slowly, not fast. And when the calories the fat calories into the bloodstream, slowly one or two calories a minute, the body preferentially burns it for energy doesn't even store it as fat. But when fat calories rushing and 50 calories a minute from oil, then the body has no choice but to put it in put stored as fat right away and turn on fat storage hormones and fat storage mechanisms and inhibit fat loss and then increase the appetite to get more energy for the trilogy no longer have the calories in the blood. You know, so it's all it's all very what's the word abnormal for humans to be getting fat from oils, oils, not a natural food for any animal species on the earth and any primate or any human. It's a processed, you know, food that's been designed and, you know, I see it as the the biggest scam perpetrated on the world's population is convincing them that oil is a health food. You know, while everybody is overweight and fat, they're consuming 500 calories of oil a day and thinking they can lose weight and they can't it's almost impossible. But so that's right, it's a fast food. And a slow food carbohydrate is like beans, peas, you know, soy, you know, chickpeas, lentils, then the carbohydrates come in real slowly into the bloodstream. The beans in these other types of carbohydrates are very high and slowly digestible carbohydrates and very high in resistant starch. So you get the calories going into the bloodstream slowly so the body doesn't have to produce much insulin to keep the glucose current level because the calories coming in very gradually. And of course, insulin is another growth hormone that promotes fat storage and sets the stage for later life diseases. The hallmark of all long lived people or healthy centenarians is their insulin sensitive, and the body doesn't have to make much insulin. They're not stressing out the insulin production by by taxing it with high glycemic carbohydrates, like white bread and white rice and sugar and honey and sweeteners. You know, so we're talking here about getting your carbohydrate, from fruits and vegetables and beans, and getting more protein from greens and beans and nuts and seeds. And obviously, your body functions completely differently.

Alex Ferrari 24:16
Now, what are some of the most nutrient dense foods that you could recommend?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 24:22
Well, green vegetables are the most nutrient dense foods. And one of my mantras is to tell people to have a salad a big salad at least once a day. As soon as the mantra The salad is the main dish. That is it. And at least once a day they should be eating a big salad and nine in salad bowl chopping up a mixture of lettuce dark green lettuce with half of some cruciferous green like bok choy, cabbage, arugula, baby kale. You know we have this unprecedented opportunity in human history to slow aging and live longer because we have access to all these incredible foods today. Almost all over the world of the United States, we can get it. And we can get sprouts and microgreens and baby lettuces and things like that, that our ancestors couldn't get. I couldn't even see those foods in the marketplace when I was a child, you didn't have so much access to healthy food, and somebody's buying them and making them they don't be producing them. But if people some people are aware of the incredible health benefits of these type of microgreens, and baby lettuces and cruciferous greens, because they're selling it in bags and boxes of these green productions or green vegetable Productions production, so eating a salad every day, is critically important to humans and we are green vegetable dependent animal like the primate like all the other primates or I always tell people if you don't want to eat green vegetables, you better look close to a hospital because you can't have good health if you don't, we're green vegetable dependent animal. And I say that the consumption of raw vegetables has the most consistent and powerful association with the reduction of cancers all type but in addition to the Greens we're talking about both green raw vegetables and green cooked vegetables and green cruciferous vegetable family like broccoli and cabbage and bok choy that family too. And then we have the other G bombs the other bombs the G stands for greens, the B O MBS stands for beans, onions, mushrooms, berries and seeds. So we're talking about getting a lot of our carbohydrate needs met from beans when you know as possible like a cup of beans every day of different types, chickpeas, lentils, peas, you know things like that. And then onions and scallion and green onion is very very powerful anti cancer longevity modeling effects also anti diabetic and blood pressure lowering effects and then you have mushrooms, which are the most powerful anti angiogenic food. So we're angiogenesis means the production of new blood vessels to fuel the growth of fat, which simultaneously fuels the growth of cancer cells. And mushrooms doesn't don't let you fuel the growth of fat or fuel the growth of cancer cells. They prevent new blood vessels bringing new blood and oxygen and nourishments to to grow to the feeder abnormal growth of tissue. So loading foods that feed abnormal growth in mushrooms, say no way Jose, I'm not letting you fuel abnormal growth.

Alex Ferrari 27:17
And well, if you don't mind me asking what are some of the mushroom species that are really good to eat? I mean, obviously, there's the Crimson crimson mushrooms but there's some more exotic ones that I've seen a lot of supplements about, like for the brain brain function and things like that. What do you recommend as far as the kind of the kind of mushrooms to eat?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 27:39
Well, I do recommend people eat the simple basic mushrooms that are at least expensive to builder the depth of those types of white button mushrooms Kamini motion for meaning brown mushrooms and portabella mushrooms are the same type of mushroom. And then you have then we also recommend people buy a lot of photography mushrooms, those the ones that have the umbrella cap, that little dirt nib on the bottom, you cut off a little drip nib ie the whole stem and the whole umbrella cap, the shutter hockey, but then buying you know oyster and trumpet, and lion's mane and chanterelle and all these different other mushrooms, whatever available in your marketplace, and some of them are quite expensive. Some of them they could be, you know, $10 a pound or more, but it's okay. Because I'm saying it's okay to spend your money because you don't need that much of that stuff. Right? Even a half a pound, even $6 worth of those mushrooms are gonna be good for three nights, the sprinkling your dishes, because even a little bit of mushrooms added to your diet have tremendous powerful effects on longevity. There was a study done on a huge cohort of Asian women that show that people away 10 grams of mushrooms a day had a 64% lower risk of developing breast cancer compared to women. So we know mushrooms and the 10 grams is the size of your thumb. That's just a little bit of mushroom. So it showed the so these studies that have shown the effects of even a small amount of mushrooms have incredibly powerful effects it improving body's immune function and lifespan and we're not recommending 10 grams a day of course, we're recommending people have 30 to 50 grams a day have much more mushrooms in it like a quarter cup of mushrooms or a third of a cup. But even at 10 grams a day even at once even just a spoonful a day a mushroom has a beneficial effect on your health. But so even if you can't afford it at a huge amount, still buy some mushrooms and try to go some mushroom variety. I usually get to talking mushrooms as a base and a super a dish. I always say like one of the mushroom to it like white button or a little chanterelle a little trumpet or a little boy a little something with mixed in with taki because I love this photography there's so chewy and like to be able to mouthfeel as you know add some substance and chewiness to the food and a really great.

Alex Ferrari 29:36
Now I've heard you discuss the beans and the second meal effect. What is that?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 29:43
It means that beans have so much resistance starch that they fuel the growth of beneficial bacteria in the gut more than other foods do. The other foods that fuel the growth of the most beneficial bacteria, Flora and the Good are the green vegetables raw and the onions raw. But the mushrooms are mostly cooked and the beans are mostly cooked beans are well cooked beans have a lot of results in storage. But the combination of those four food foods thicken the microbiome that covers the villi in a small intestines, and scientists call the covering the thickened coating on the villi. They call it the biofilm. This biofilm of active living cells that aren't part human, but their bacteria produce nutrients help us complete the protein that we eat from vegetables, and also slowly absorption of glucose into the bloodstream. So when we eat a mango for breakfast, or some oatmeal and a banana, the glycemic load of that breakfast is lowered because we ate the beans in the greens. And we have a thickened biofilm which then slows the glue eases the glucose into the bloodstream, reducing the amount of insulin needs to be produced. So what So scientists call that the second meal effect, which means that the glycemic effect of that meal has been blunted by the fact that you're regularly eating greens and beans and mushrooms, particularly beans,

Alex Ferrari 31:18
Interesting and beans and lagoons as well.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 31:22
Beans and legumes I use that that interchangeably beans, saying lithiums. And then and the combination of the greens and the onions and the mushrooms of beans. Also, scientists call it gene silencing that I mentioned that these foods not only folk develop a fabled microbiome, but they also penetrate into every cell in our body and activate the antioxidant response element in the cell that repairs the cell damage. And and here's the thing. It gene silences any defects in the cell. So if you've inherited something bad that can increase the risk of disease, that's really that's recognized and silenced and not allowed to cause a problem. So when you're eating right, your genes, negative genes don't have a chance to cause any negative effects. And scientists call that gene silencing.

Alex Ferrari 32:14
Can you talk a little bit about the importance of the microbiome and what it does to our health and it's something that is really starting to come into into the zeitgeist a little bit more in recent years. But a lot of people didn't even think about the gut or the gut flora or anything like that. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 32:34
Yeah. And if people are thinking they're taking these probiotic pills with acidophilus, and Bifidus. And thinking yogurt is good, but we're finding out with more research, that the most longevity promoting microbiome that slows aging, and communicates with our immune system are gram positives that are have the most micro by biological diversity. So it's having the most wide diversity of different types of gram positive organisms that slow aging and support the growth of the healthiest immune function. Because your immune system is, you could say, concentrated around the digestive tract, the quality interstitial lymphocytes that surrounded digestive tracts that are fueled by the arrow hydrocarbon receptors, which are then fueled by green vegetables. So what I'm saying right now is that our immune system is concentrated around the digestive tract. And it's fueled by the microbiome there and the interaction between the cells that are living the bacteria that living there, which then don't let yeast forms and viruses and bacteria penetrate through and or allows the user to penetrate through so slowly, with such small concentrations that the immune system can recognize and engulf those and deactivate them quickly. It's when you have and of course, when you're eating like meats and sweets, let's say you have more gram negative organisms, more more yeast Blum forms, and more. And when you have this, these negative gram negatives bacteria, you produce more and more animal protein choline, you produce more T M A au tri methyl amine oxide, which then is a pro inflammatory substance and increases risk of cancer dementia. And of course, atherosclerosis increases risk of heart disease tremendously from the type of bacteria you just grow that failure, you're giving a favorable expression to have those growing those unhealthy bacteria in the digestive tract versus crowding them out and fueling and having all the good bacteria. So we're saying that the lagoons the chickpeas and the lentils and the greens, these foods and even the mushrooms and the onions are the best Prill probiotic or prebiotic to grow the health of these good bacteria. And then you have post biotic products, which means the bacteria themselves produce nutrients and support them you and function and communicate with the rest of the body and the brain to improve our health and improve our immune recognition of abnormal cells and invading microbes that can invade us. Fascinating, fascinating.

Alex Ferrari 35:11
I've heard you say before that nuts and seeds, can really truly help heart disease. Can you discuss a little bit about that?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 35:21
Yes, it's really fascinating that the, it's wild, that people are consuming nuts and seeds have such lower rates of cardiovascular death, we're seeing that most studies show a for about a 40% reduction in cardiovascular death, from the regular consumption, the daily consumption of nuts and seeds in the diet. And you could say, well, that's because people are eating nuts and seeds instead of a while. While they're eating nuts and seeds instead of meat. Maybe they cut the meat and eat more nuts and seeds. But that's not what the study shows. It shows with every every cohort, we're looking at whether it's person eating a fish based diet, or a meat based diet, or a vegan diet, or a near vegan or flexitarian diet or unhealthy diet or a healthy vegan or a night health that when we looked at every cohort, it held up still beneficial effects on longevity. And we're talking about reducing all cause mortality, meaning cancer as well as heart attacks and strokes, and seizures and irregular heartbeats and infection. That nuts and seeds have beneficial effects on human longevity, that what I'm saying right now and what you asked me is to make the strong point that nuts and seeds should be the fat source of fatty food that humans eat to get their fats should come from nuts and seeds and avocado, not from animal products and oils. Because when we do that we magnificently improve human health and longevity.

Alex Ferrari 36:43
Now with nuts though, the thing I've heard and I love to hear your thoughts about it is that with something like almonds or pistachios in nature, you need to work to get to that nut. So for you to actually get an almond is going to take a tremendous amount of effort to break through the husk and all that stuff to get the one element. But now we have a true Okay, well, let's say with pistachios,

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 37:10
It's a human can take a rock and smash open an almond in two seconds.

Alex Ferrari 37:15
Okay, so but that two seconds is a lot more seconds than buying I and you could buy literally get a bag of almonds and eat, you know, 100 Almonds, without thinking about it. Is that too many calories? Or do we need to worry about that? Can we choose watch how many nuts we eat?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 37:33
No, we should watch everything we eat, not eat not overeat of any food, because our total calories for the day matter. But when you see what I'm saying right now is when your nutrient levels are low, you can become an calorie consuming machine, you could sit down eat a whole bag of almonds. But when you're when you're when you're getting enough greens and beans and mushrooms and onions and berries, and you're eating enough vegetables, enough nutrients, you're not going to become one and overeat, you're not going to you're going to feel instinctual cut off point you're not going to really be being an overeating machine. So we're not saying that people can't emotionally overeat or haven't been trained to overeat since they were young, and still have perverted styles of eating that have to be retrained. That's true. And people could use nuts to overeat on. We're not justifying you could do overeat on fruit and vegetables too. But But nuts going to calorically concentrated so as avocado and so is things like you can overeat on even rice but but the point is, is the courses you can easier overeat are nuts because it's 175 calories per ounce. So let's say that two ounces of nuts, that would be let's say 350 calories a day, which would be reasonable. But if you ate, you know, 1000 calories from nuts a day on top of your other food, it would be you know, obviously, but I'm saying is using nuts as your fat source, you use it judiciously, like a half an ounce to an ounce with each meal. I could eat announced with each meal because I'm doing a lot of athletics. But of course we're looking to lose weight and still haven't half an ounce with each meal and still have an ounce and a half of nuts a day. And it's not going to be that. And when the scientific studies show that when you change, let's say you had 200 to 300 calories of nuts and you reduced your calories from carbohydrate accordingly by three to one or 300 calories, you have more weight loss and more satiation of hunger by including the 200k by reducing the carbohydrates down so when you when you move things ISO calorically the same amount of calories, so your calories are 1600 for the day, you keep at 1600 for the day, but you take in more nuts unless potato or rice then you've got better health, more longevity. But obviously if you're going to have you snack on foods and emotionally eat and use nuts to gain weight, then you're going to not be great in great health because any time you have fat on the body, you're not going to have good health. And there's no such thing as an overweight healthy person. All overweight people have are shortening their lifespans. And if you're going to eat to keep yourself overweight because we want to modulate our food intake to get our a perfect body weights and modulate our protein intake and modulate our fat intake. So part of being a nutritarian isn't just eating one kind of food and overeating on. And it's knowing when to eat and how much to eat to you, right, because we want to be at a perfect weight. So my perfect weight, for example, at the age of 68, my body fat is about 10%. And I say for a male to be in good healthy acids, body fat below 15%, but preferably lower than that was Furby below 12. For wanting to be in good health, she asked her for body fat below 25%, maybe even ideally below 23%. But at least we have to, we can't just eat anything, as much of these things as we want, we have to, but I'm saying is you're not going to want to overeat those things. If when you really learn how to eat healthy, learn the recipes, and you're, you know, you're and of course, we have the ability to control our health destiny, we can't just eat and we have to, and that entails moderate caloric restriction to slow the aging process. A little bit restriction is made possible because you're comfortable eating less calories when eating the right food. And it becomes impossible to do because you're uncomfortable eating less calories when you eat the wrong food.

Alex Ferrari 41:03
So which brings me to another question, what do you think about intermittent fasting is that something that is beneficial long term

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 41:13
It can't be answered simply, okay, because we have so much of our population is overweight, right. And these overweight people when they start to intimate and fast to lose weight, they're so emotionally attached to food and addicted to food, that at some times triggers binge eating, binge eating, or yo yoing their weight. And they go on these diets that are too strict, utilizing intermittent fasting or fasting as a means to get their weight down. Then they bounce back and overeat. And it triggers them emotionally now, you know, to their cow, and their metabolic rates have slowed down by fasting. And now with a slow, excessively slow down, I should say. And then when they're eating more calories, they gain weight even back again. And if you're using so there's too much of a high probability for people with an addictive relationship and with food or emotional overeaters to utilize fasting and then binging and fasting and binging to yo yo their caloric intakes too much that's not going to be in their best interests. For most overweight people, we see better long term results at achieving and maintaining a normal weight. If they develop a feeling for repetition, and doing the same thing every day, week in and week out, losing weight gradually and slowly till they get to their perfect weight do they know how to live now. So I can intimate and fast because I'm not overweight, it's not going to lead me into a binge. But if you haven't mastered your diet and your weight, then you don't want to go to these extreme caloric restrictions until you can get your regular pattern of eating every day to get you to achieve an ideal weight are you following me and to my chances of blowing this up and yo yoing, which is so bad for your health. And then the major factor via which intimate and fasting slows aging and extends human lifespan is not having food in your stomach when you're sleeping at night. And so we're talking about eating a lighter an earlier dinner, and finish eating dinner at least four hours before bedtime. So the meal has a chance to totally digest. So when you go to bed at night, you're not digesting food. So yes, if that's called time restricted eating or intermittent fasting, then I'm agreeing with it. But I'm going on these diets of 500 calories a day for four days in a row and then going back to your normal way of eating again, to keep your weight under control. It doesn't has a history has a very poor success rate, and a history of long term failure. Even the people that go on water fasts for two or three weeks and they lose a lot of weights. If you follow them a year or two later, they're a heavier weight two years later a year later than they were when they before they started that fast. It did not result in permanent weight loss because it slowed their metabolic rate down slow much and they went back to eating again, which they have a tendency to, they're like now they're thinking about food in such an emotional way that they're triggering their their desire to overeat and then they put back weight on again. So I'm really into these days of people taking the initiative and teaching them to have to persevere persevere over time with a repetition of the right way of eating day in and day out. And to lose weight to two or three pounds a week until they get to their ideal weight and keep it going in that direction and then live that way for the rest of their life if they want to put some fasting on top of that they could but it's not the means to lose weight it's not going to be a major portion of their therapy until they learn how to eat right

Alex Ferrari 44:42
Now what are some fat loss promoting?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 44:45
Foods fat loss promoting foods well the same foods we were talking about the prevent cancer have effects to reduce fat storage in the body you know the G bombs so that so I was saying the same for foods, the beans, the cooked foods The beans in the mushrooms cooked. And the raw foods are the greens and the and the the onion scallion raw that that same combination of food having the big salad every day for lunch, having the bowl of vegetable and being super the onions and mushrooms, and a little fruit for dessert. It's the style of the diet that makes you lose weight effortlessly. Because we have at both major meals, we have some cooked food and raw food. So at lunch, we have a salad with some cook soup or chili or something with some soup. And then for dinner, we have some raw vegetables with a dip or a sauce. Maybe different raw vegetables you had at lunch, maybe pepper in bok choy and snow pea pods and carrots and hit them you know. And then we have a cooked vegetable one with cabbage and mushrooms and onions and snow, pea pods and water chestnuts, maybe a Thai curry sauce on that and maybe some frozen fruit whipped up to a nice dessert. But every meal has those features of raw vegetables cooked vegetables, beans, and nuts and real fresh fruit. Except for breakfast, which was mostly probably just a little grain with some fruit and plant milk, you know, so it's some seeds on top like flax seeds or chia seeds or something. So we keep it not too complicated. So people can reproduce this. And we make it with great tasting recipes, including great tasting desserts that are made predominantly from fruit with no sweetener agents so that it tastes really great. Were like whipping up frozen fruits into like ice creams and things. But so we make a really great tasting plan that people can sap be feel satisfied with and not having to eat thimble sized portions of food, they can in a volume of food to feel satiated and still watch their weight come down. We had a person here at the retreat this last dispersed month, who lost 50 pounds in the first month. And I said to him, he asked me how much is what's the most weight a person ever lost in the first month. And I said it's not a race. And it doesn't matter how fast you lose it. But I don't think anybody has lost more than like 40 pounds. And he said I'm beating and I'm going to 50 pounds this month. So we saw like walked in the pool. And they saw what a pool like that half the day trying to I said you know it, so he's not losing that much weight this month, he's only losing about 30 pounds the second month. But most people eventually go wind down to losing about you know, 10 Most people lose 20 pounds the first month 15 pounds the second month, then they kind of like stay at hover at 10 pounds a month usually until they get close to their ideal weight. So they're losing usually about two pounds a week. And then they might go within 10 pounds right away down to a pound a week. But the bottom line is, they're nutritarian is a person at their perfect weight or moving there in that direction. Because if you're overweight and you're not moving in the right direction, then you're not following the program right? Then you're doing something wrong could be overeating or not. So we've been dried fruit but are you but if you want to do this, right, you when you're overweight, you have to be losing steadily on the way to your ideal weight.

Alex Ferrari 47:42
Now, what is the most important meal of the day?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 47:46
Lunch unquestionably lunch is when people should be eating a big salad and the bowl of vegetable being super you know, yes, the I want like Like if I'm out busy something I may be out with my family or doing something, I may skip dinner or just have some fruit for dinner or something or a handful of nuts for dinner. But I'm not going to skip that big salad, you know of raw vegetables and take the time to chew it and really break down all those nutrients in your mouth and get that really healthy meal in for lunch every day.

Alex Ferrari 48:13
Now I'm going to ask you

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 48:15
I can change my opinion most states have breakfast and I have little grain and a little bit of seeds and berries and fruit and today I had some I had some apricots and some figs and you know whatever. But but if I'm busy on a you know work, I could maybe just have a piece of fruit I'm not going to have the seeds of the cereal they have I wish I could like skip it or change it around. But I'm not going to change my habit of having a big salad for lunch every day. I could change the breakfast a little bit Sunday, I could skip it. I could change it a lot but just some in a rush having a peanut zekiel English muffin or something in the car, but I'm not going to change my big salad for lunch.

Alex Ferrari 48:48
Do you? Do you recommend breads? Or should we watch the bread and take that we have

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 48:53
I recommend not having flour breads made from flour but like I buy the Ezekiel food hilife brand which are made from sprouted grains. What's the difference? It's the glycemic load that's difference because when you grind some of these, you know we were already talking about white flour as being a drug and not even a food. That's like that's no no brainer, you know, but now what about these whole grain breads that are made the whole wheat flour? You know, and that's the question and there are intermediate food because even because they grind the whole wheat flour and make it so finely ground that it's still probably unfavorably glycemic. If you had one slice of bread, you know with a healthy meal, it's not a big deal. But the better the best spreads. If you're gonna use bread they taste good too. But the Food For Life is zekiel brand which made from sprouted grains which have lower in sodium higher in protein and lower glycemic then the whole wheat flour made bread. You know what I mean? Because it made from the whole they take the grain and they sprout it and then they grind it up a little bit and make it into a loaf you know bake it into a loaf, so it's naturally lower glycemic and one nutrient rich. So just a better quality bread.

Alex Ferrari 50:01
Got it! And then how about like all these new flowers like cassava flour or chickpea flour, almond flour? These kinds of products that are like I have a tortilla made of cassava flour. You know to get away from gluten and things like that. Is that a kind of good food to eat?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 50:19
It's okay, I think people can eat those in moderation. I've seen like tortillas and wraps made of cauliflower too. You ever see those? Yeah, those are probably flour up you know they're not eating that much of the rap anyway, you're stuffing it with mushrooms and avocado and sprouts and tomatoes and onions. Since you can make a nice healthy wrap. I put some of the like a basil. I take like roasted garlic and hemp seeds with a little bit of basil and and what am I putting a little nutritional yeast in there and a little bit of, you know, making these delicious dressings or a dip made for the for the wrap and I'm putting a wrapper around and carrying on a plane with me when I'm traveling or something you don't I mean, so yeah, it's you can use some of those wraps. You're not even that much wrap anyway. So yeah, those sounds are reasonable, but we're not eating a it's not a major portion of our diet anyway.

Alex Ferrari 51:02
Right. That's just it's wrapping. Yeah, exactly. It's a wrapping. Everything we've talked about it we're talking about, obviously, longevity. And I've heard you talk about actually reversing aging or aging backwards is everything that we're talking about, in that in that world of trying to turn the clock back, if you will. So instead of extending it.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 51:27
I know there are some scientists and people and physicians and people say you can't age backwards, that's ridiculous. But I'm saying no, you can age backwards, we've proven that we see it all the time, every day I see it. It's the only time but I'm not I'm not aging backwards. Because I've been doing I've been eating right a long time, I'm just aging slower. But when these people come into our retreat, let's say or they come in, they come from an unhealthy diet. There's measurable biological aging, determinants like telomere length, their epigenetic changes, and we can measure the inflammation their bloodstream, and then we can measure them again, the telomeres represent your biological age and your epigenetic changes, we can see how fast your aging and how fast you have aged. So maybe you're 60 years old, but you have a body of an 80 year old based on your blood tests, or your swabs of you know, and then after you eat healthfully for six months, we see the telomeres went back to normal, you now you're a 60 year old or 60 year old telomeres, not a 60 year old or 70 year old, terrible telomeres, you follow me? On here, unhealthy people age backwards, as they get really healthy. You want to stay on that. So you can't. So people are aging backwards. But we're not really Aging Backwards, we're just bringing them down to it, which is bringing them back to where they should have been if they were eating healthfully, and they've just accelerated the aging process. So they have abnormal accelerated aging that will just be paring back again. So it's like Aging Backwards. I'm not aging backwards. I'm still aging. But I've we're not because I didn't get myself in a bad shape to begin with. So I have to age backwards, you follow me?

Alex Ferrari 52:56
I know I understand what you're saying. But also, there are times where like, you'd be if you could be a 50 year old but have a 30 year olds, internal scenarios based on the blood type and blood work if you're eating

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 53:08
Compared to the average 50 year old.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
Correct! Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 53:13
And I'm making, I'm also making the radical statement that people should be that the average lifespan should be between 95 and 105. Not between 70 and 90 where most Americans die around age 7778. So we're talking here about living to be around 100 years old, having good health and your full mental faculties intact.

Alex Ferrari 53:33
Now, I'm going to ask you two questions, ask all my guests. What is your mission in this life?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 53:39
I have on my own personal missions and business missions, but my mission in life is to is to be happy, enjoy the world around me, and have a positive effect on as many people as I can to improve their health and happiness. You know, so and you can only do that if you're in good health yourself. If you're not taking care of your own health, and your own happiness and well being, then you can't have a good positive effect on other people. You know, I'd love to have an effect on the planet as well. But you know, we're seeing the planet being destroyed. But there's, there's so much negativity in short side of the thinking. And I'm saying here that I think the instantaneous gratification, and the food addiction mentality has led people to think and behave for instant gratification. And that think of the effects that we're having on the world collectively, and enables us to destroy the environment for our children and grandchildren destroy the planet, which includes climate change, and also the the promotion of aggressive aggression, contempt for other humans, the one country trying to beat out another country and the the increased competition between humans and wars and killing each other, which we're seeing today. You know, in today's climate, we're seeing, you know, climate change wars and also an acceleration of hate among Americans against immigrants and people from other countries and people were different have different backgrounds and different education's in different, you know, but we're not, we're not cultivating, you know, a concern for, for people all over the world, a collective wellbeing for the earth, compassion for all humans matter what they like us or not, you know, stopping wars and working together as a as a as a unified planet, everyone's sharing this one spaceship to protect the planet for our children and grandchildren, future generations, we're not having that happen. And so, you know, in some ways, I'm disappointed, I can't do more, but we will do the best we can to do as much as we can. And I think the Nutrition has a huge part to do with all this. And it fuels people's aggression, and their and mental illness and their ability to be, be more narcissistic, is fueled by the poor diets, and so on. So that's my niche is I can't do everything. I'm just doing what I can do in the niche that I've chosen to live in. And I really, as you know, have very passionate about motivating people to take better care of their health.

Alex Ferrari 56:08
Now, where can people pick up your book, eat for life and all your other amazing products and courses and services and so on?

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 56:17
Thank you, well, my website drfuhrmancom. But you can buy those books anywhere, bookstores, Amazon, you know, I sell. And I have a lot of my, my work has actually been shown a lot on public television on PBS United States. A lot of we have run a lot of my shows over the last 10 years. So I've very been blessed to have gone into the, you know, kind of the living rooms and bedrooms with people across America, speaking about motivating them to take better care of their health, because they don't get that from anybody. They don't get anywhere practically right. They go through grade school. And the most important thing is they should have learned to protect their life. They know nothing about it. You know, but anyway, so yeah, I've had some very grateful for the opportunities, I've had to be able to have an effect on hundreds of 1000s of people that's given me tremendous amount of pleasure. But I get so much pleasure just from helping one person just from seeing one person transform their life for the better. And working with that gives me a lot of satisfaction, pleasure as well.

Alex Ferrari 57:16
Dr. Fuhrman, thank you so much for not only coming on the show, but for all the amazing work you've been doing over over the years and I truly truly appreciate you my friend. Thank you again.

Dr. Joel Fuhrman 57:24
Thank you so much, Alex.

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